retention contest

[lino]

As far as retention goes, if not the "transmuting myth"...which is true to a point

(but not quite the way people expect). Having stagnation in the sexual organs is not

good either.

 

Putting a temporary stop on sexual stuff can be used for redirecting energies to

restore the rest of the body.

[RyanO]

As far as retention goes, if not the "transmuting myth"...which is true to a point

(but not quite the way people expect). Having stagnation in the sexual organs is not

good either.

 

Putting a temporary stop on sexual stuff can be used for redirecting energies to

restore the rest of the body.

 

lino: Curious what you mean by "transmuting myth".

[EagleShen]

Hey gj551,

You mention doing the microcosmic, are you also doing testicle massage and belly breathing? These two are essential to retention IMO.

[hagar]

lino: Curious what you mean by "transmuting myth".

 

The idea of sexual energy being transmuted is indeed a myth. I took me 15 years to see through this.

 

We never really transmute anything gross to subtle on an experiential basis. What really happens if you retain is just that your hormonal levels will drop, but there is nothing actually that is transmuted through spiritual practice or energetic work through the period of retention. It probably comes from a misinterpretation of the relation ship of Jing-chi-shen transformation. This is not a closed-system analogy where power is acumulated. This really is a big hoax, supported by unfounded belief in the nature of Jing as a "force", when it is more like water that nurtures a plant. There is nothing to gain from retention spiritually away from a shift in perspective, and more peace of mind. Yet this will constantly be challenged, and it will be more and more difficult the longer the period of retention lasts.

Actually, its way easier to practice in a stable way in normal life when not doing retention.

 

h

[三江源]

The idea of sexual energy being transmuted is indeed a myth. I took me 15 years to see through this.

 

We never really transmute anything gross to subtle on an experiential basis. What really happens if you retain is just that your hormonal levels will drop, but there is nothing actually that is transmuted through spiritual practice or energetic work through the period of retention. It probably comes from a misinterpretation of the relation ship of Jing-chi-shen transformation. This is not a closed-system analogy where power is acumulated. This really is a big hoax, supported by unfounded belief in the nature of Jing as a "force", when it is more like water that nurtures a plant. There is nothing to gain from retention spiritually away from a shift in perspective, and more peace of mind. Yet this will constantly be challenged, and it will be more and more difficult the longer the period of retention lasts.

Actually, its way easier to practice in a stable way in normal life when not doing retention.

 

h

 

Mods, can you make this post a sticky, or make it a pm and send it to all the blokes on the board?!

[Adam West]

Mods, can you make this post a sticky, or make it a pm and send it to all the blokes on the board?!

 

I think Hagar is wrong in this; certainly, however, if his practice is having good effect without it, that is what matters. It's not a matter of ideology, rather one of what works for the persons on the path and their social supports. My decade plus experimentation has led me to be certain of the value of retention in conjunction with deep and effective meditation. One's growth and empowerment on 'all' levels of being is exponential with retention; and excessive ejaculation will just as certainly result in one's deterioration. This is true for me at least, given the condition of my present mind-body structures; as these change following energetic structural change, so will the system and the need for celibacy.

 

I find Bodri to be correct in his analysis concerning this dialogue.

 

-Adam.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Adam West

[hagar]

I think Hagar is wrong in this; certainly, however, if his practice is having good effect without it, that is what matters. It's not a matter of ideology, rather one of what works for the persons on the path and their social supports. My decade plus experimentation has led me to be certain of the value of retention in conjunction with deep and effective meditation. One's growth and empowerment on 'all' levels of being is exponential with retention; and excessive ejaculation will just as certainly result in one's deterioration. This is true for me at least, given the condition of my present mind-body structures; as these change following energetic structural change, so will the system and the need for celibacy.

 

I find Bodri to be correct in his analysis concerning this dialogue.

 

-Adam.

 

Adam, I see your point.

 

Just to clarify, taxing your pre-natal Jing, or essential water through exessive sexual activity will be detrimental to your overall physical and mental health, but this goes for all other indulgences also. In most cases what taxes you the most is emotional and mental imbalances. My point is that there is no connection btw your chances of recognizing your true Nature and prolonged retention. With or without meditation. It has become an unfounded belief or dogma.

 

Actually you can retain, and meditate for eons without any realization. Retention is not a prerequisite for spiritual advancement. Its not schematic, and its not instrumental. It may help to retain or meditate, yet this is helpful in the same way as bringing bandaid to a hikingtrip is helpful in assisting you in enjoying nature.

 

It may prolong your lifespan, if done in a very accurate and diciplined way, yet if you think you will get anything from retention or meditation, spiritually speaking, you are wrong.

 

h

[markern]

I think Hagar is wrong in this; certainly, however, if his practice is having good effect without it, that is what matters. It's not a matter of ideology, rather one of what works for the persons on the path and their social supports. My decade plus experimentation has led me to be certain of the value of retention in conjunction with deep and effective meditation. One's growth and empowerment on 'all' levels of being is exponential with retention; and excessive ejaculation will just as certainly result in one's deterioration. This is true for me at least, given the condition of my present mind-body structures; as these change following energetic structural change, so will the system and the need for celibacy.

 

I find Bodri to be correct in his analysis concerning this dialogue.

 

-Adam.

 

But how do you find sex with long term retention of sperm/dual cultivation compares to this (if you have experimented with this)? As far as I understand theory says that it is more powerfull than celibacy and it is also the experience of my meeditation teachers and several other people I have seen write about it on the bums and other places. Although it does seem more risky as many people do it wrong and get unbalanced by it. My teacher has had etensive periods of celibacy as a monk and says that in his case dual cultivation is about twice as strong and also energeticly more balanced (more yin energy) than celibacy.

 

I have been experiencing a bit with much longer periods without ej and see that it is very powerfull and profound. Previously I have found that after starting cultivation practices I started to gain a balancing energy from the women I had sex with while also loosing a lot through ej. Celibacy (very short periods though but long compared to what I have been used to) was more powerfull and very balancing. But yesterday I had my first sexual experience with a woman that actually has some energy and can move it. This was profoundly balancing and seemed way more powerfull than regular celibacy as long as I can learn to manage internal orgasms without ej or learn to pull of the jing from the sperm or use the sort of mindfulness techniques that Mal learnt from KAP and which leaves him with more energy.

 

reuniting.info is a very good read about how to aproach reteniton sex safely and sheads a lot of light on how all these things might work sientifcly.

 

Oh, Adam since you have been practicing Dzogchen and Zen/Vipassana? have you found any difference in how celibacy influences shamata practice compared to insight practice? The reason why I ask is when I have previously asked people at thedharmaoverground how they feel energy practices influneces their practice they all answered it heped a lot with shamata but had zero effect on insight practice. So maybe celibacy/dual cultivation, like energy practices are only helpfull for shamata and alchemical paths but irrelevant for insight practice. Or if they helpfull are but energy practices are not then this sheds some light on what energy is helpfull (not the chi generated through qigong or yoga but the Jing or prenatal jing you save through celibacy).

 

I also read somewhere that you thought or had expereinced that an energy path was suportive of your emptiness meditation. Does this mean you found it helpfullo in insight practice also or only in shamatha?

Edited March 4, 2010 by markern

[That Guy]

Could there be a placebo effect? not just physical, but also a spiritual placebo? Just wondering.

 

(And hagar, you read claymore by the way?)

[hagar]

But how do you find sex with long term retention of sperm/dual cultivation compares to this (if you have experimented with this)? As far as I understand theory says that it is more powerfull than celibacy and it is also the experience of my meeditation teachers and several other people I have seen write about it on the bums and other places. Although it does seem more risky as many people do it wrong and get unbalanced by it. My teacher has had etensive periods of celibacy as a monk and says that in his case dual cultivation is about twice as strong and also energeticly more balanced (more yin energy) than celibacy.

 

I have been experiencing a bit with much longer periods without ej and see that it is very powerfull and profound. Previously I have found that after starting cultivation practices I started to gain a balancing energy from the women I had sex with while also loosing a lot through ej. Celibacy (very short periods though but long compared to what I have been used to) was more powerfull and very balancing. But yesterday I had my first sexual experience with a woman that actually has some energy and can move it. This was profoundly balancing and seemed way more powerfull than regular celibacy as long as I can learn to manage internal orgasms without ej or learn to pull of the jing from the sperm or use the sort of mindfulness techniques that Mal learnt from KAP and which leaves him with more energy.

 

reuniting.info is a very good read about how to aproach reteniton sex safely and sheads a lot of light on how all these things might work sientifcly.

 

Oh, Adam since you have been practicing Dzogchen and Zen/Vipassana? have you found any difference in how celibacy influences shamata practice compared to insight practice? The reason why I ask is when I have previously asked people at thedharmaoverground how they feel energy practices influneces their practice they all answered it heped a lot with shamata but had zero effect on insight practice. So maybe celibacy/dual cultivation, like energy practices are only helpfull for shamata and alchemical paths but irrelevant for insight practice. Or if they helpfull are but energy practices are not then this sheds some light on what energy is helpfull (not the chi generated through qigong or yoga but the Jing or prenatal jing you save through celibacy).

 

I also read somewhere that you thought or had expereinced that an energy path was suportive of your emptiness meditation. Does this mean you found it helpfullo in insight practice also or only in shamatha?

 

edit

h

Edited March 4, 2010 by hagar

[EagleShen]

Hagar makes some good points.

 

Part of what gets missed in 'the retention debate' is that what's more important than whether you retain or not is whether you are acting from a place of 'natural arising'. Most men ejaculate as they have an unconscious desire to ejaculate (and the myriad reasons why i won't go into). They are not sensitive to and conscious of what their bodies need, it's like an addiction. Practising retention is invaluable to retrain ourselves, to lose the ejaculation addiction, to become sensitive to our subtle way, but is it really any better if we are attached to retention? It can easily become more about control (and yes i spent some time in this category) and less about being in harmony with what is naturally arising. And surely this state of 'naturally arising' is what we're all practising to achieve?

 

The few times internal orgasm has arisen naturally within, without any effort on my behalf, has been a remarkable experience, both during and after. Likewise, sex with a woman who can move energy and is engaging with you on a similar level of consciousness can totally transform the experience of ejaculation, there is an alchemy that can occur where you get more than you give.

[Procurator]

about being in harmony with what is naturally arising. And surely this state of 'naturally arising' is what we're all practising to achieve?

 

what naturally arises naturally dies. no need to practice

[gj551]

from friday it will be roughly a hundred days till this years summer soltice

 

whos with me

 

im currently researching on sleep patterns

it will definately not be possible to get a decent amount of sleep during that time.. youll lose it as fast as half an hour when fallen asleep

 

the nasa did some studies on it

 

for your consideration http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/3606/dscn3201m.jpg

Edited March 9, 2010 by gj551

[gj551]

id be more verbose and answer all but my room is a mess and so am i

Edited March 9, 2010 by gj551

[gendao]

Mods, can you make this post a sticky, or make it a pm and send it to all the blokes on the board?!

Why? What necessarily makes hagar an expert on the subject and his opinion correct? Has he opened all his channels, awakened his kundalini, attained enlightenment & his immortal jalus? Is he at least in radiant health and a powerful qigong healer?

Find me a skilled person of some proven abilty with the desired attainments first, and then bestow his opinions with more credibility...

very few people have Jing (Internal Power). Cultivating this internal power requires special training. We are talking about modulating the amount of Jing and varying the type of frequency that the Jing manifests.

 

How do you do that? Is it all here in the mind, pointing to one's head? This commodity of energy that you circulate in your body is an exact reflection of your WILL. And your WILL therefore is a direct reflection and extension of your cultivated sexual energy. That's why when you have sex, you don't want to ejaculate. - Gary Clyman

Nothing against hagar personally here - and maybe he could be very highly-attained...just saying that talk in general is cheap, but proof is in the pudding. So, taste each pudding first before you proclaim the best recipe!

 

Personally, I believe that retention is after-the-fact and could even be unhealthy if forced (postnatal jing stagnation). The trick is to convert prenatal jing to yang qi (which rises like steam) - not postnatal jing (which seeks to run down & out like water) - to begin with.

But if you're sexually aroused and having sex, then you've already converted it into postnatal jing (from lust). So whether or not you retain at that point, you've already missed the crucial pass. That's the big misunderstaning (IMO). Real alchemy (IMO) is about transmuting prenatal jing to yang qi - NOT converting it to postnatal jing (through lust) and then retaining it.

 

I'm not exactly sure what your healthy options are at that point. Perhaps you could still transmute or recover it, I dunno. And ejaculating it then might be a lesser "evil" than forceful retention/stagnation.

 

Of course, I myself am not much "attained" yet either...so that is just my opinion right now. Maybe hagar is actually right, and I'm wrong?

Edited March 9, 2010 by vortex

[shaolin]

gj551, Im with you on the 100 days. Good luck!

[gj551]

thanks bro

 

an additional motivator could be that youll have to tell when youre out, ill do likewise.. like when youre really tired and want ro sleep for a couple of hours instead of napping 15min in sitting position then youll know that youll have to tell em tomorrow you blew it and that may prove motivational to pull it through

 

turn on to taoism :E

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Nocturnal Emmisions are nature's way of telling the story of the master pouring the tea for the babbling student.. you simply can't add more to a 'full cup'.. there's an important difference between cultivated control and forced retention.. cultivated control is a developed discipline in harmony with its environment.. forced retention is a misunderstanding, often 'forced' into a training schedule.. cultivated control is often a practice agreed upon between partners and includes many aspects of the student's lifestyle.. Forced retention is usually not a free choice, but used as a means to an end.. cultivated control is practiced as an enhancement to one's chosen lifestyle..

 

Cultivated control is adopted through understanding, it reveals harmony and joy in the journey, it is not exclusive or harsh.. for the sincere student it expands awareness and relationships..

 

Be well..

[Eric Yudelove]

Aw c'mon guys, give him a break.

 

53 days is great. My last effort was right around there too. Never done the full 100. Maybe when I'm older...

 

I hope the NE was lucid!

Edited March 12, 2010 by Eric Yudelove

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Out of curiosity, Eric.. why do you preface your name with 'Master'?

 

Be well..

[shaolin]

Cool. Let's see what happens.

[sifusufi]

If anyone needs some relative diversion...

 

http://mitworld.mit.edu/video/363

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091111200225.htm

 

Great page here...

http://www.hhmi.org/biointeractive/genomics/lectures.html

Killin' graphics throughout! nice

[Smile]

First!

[Eric Yudelove]

Greetings..

 

Out of curiosity, Eric.. why do you preface your name with 'Master'?

 

Be well..

Edited March 12, 2010 by Eric Yudelove

[EagleShen]

gj551, i've been 'in retention' for a couple of weeks now, i can't say i'll be trying to retain for 100 days as i simply listen to my body and impulses and do my best to distinguish the source of my desire, which sometimes includes ejaculation - but i'll be with you for some or possibly all of the time at least. I'd encourage you to use the time to understand the desire to ejaculate, it is a beautiful desire, but do not let it master you by fighting it, instead love that desire and dance with it and free yourself from a binary relationship with it.

 

I mentioned it earlier, but testicle massage night and morning with deep slow belly breathing does wonders for curbing nocturnal emissions.