Original sin

[Edward M]

Wanted to give the forum my take on original sin.

 

Probably most of you don't accept it in shape or form, and that is why you have turned to daoism etc.

 

I'm not wishing to diss daoism.. i believe if i studied it carefully i'd find great similarities to christianity.

 

First off I think original sin has got a lot to do with being honest and following advice/instruction not really from authority but from a trusted one.

 

Adam and Eve were both warned against eating from the tree of knowledge. But they were "tempted" to eat by the serpent.

 

As such they were both cast to the earth where we all live and remain today. We have to work and survive amongst all that is here on earth.

 

The key word is "work". It was actually an order not a bit of advice.

 

But we are not really fullfilling this obligation. We try to make things easy for ourselves by way of technology and taking drugs/alcohol to ease the pain so to speak.

 

What this has done, and i know i don't need to point this out to any of you, is that we are in global crisis because of it.

 

Some get lazy and mentally unstable/ill through drugs and others become abusive/violent through alcohol.

 

Technology also has us become more and morte lazy and specifically the internet is rewiring our brains.

 

We were specifically told to plough the earth and eat of it. Also one of the commandments i thou shall not kill..but we are slaughtering the animals to eat.

 

Some say as in islam that we were forgiven, but then why are we still here? it's clear to me that it is about acceptance and being present and doing th work and learning to follow orders/advice.

 

In short, this life here on earth is one big learning process. And i'm guessing it is so that when we are forgiven and something changes..i don't know, messianic age, or we are in the light of spirit up above; it so that we don't make the same mistake again, and we learn to trust God once again and not be decieved and we stay strong and present in our spirituial awareness and don't give in to any temptations.

 

Thats why i again i guess, that the body works the way it does...jing,qi, shen... it's progressive and we have to make saccrifices and not give in to the sexual temptation or other indulgences.

 

You might think genesis is a harsh story/lesson, but just think what might be if they hadn't been decieved.

 

Sorry if i sound like a fundamentalist evangelical.... i'm not, i'm not disciplined at all! just hope some might see what io see.

 

For the record, i beleive any spiritual system, or at leat most of them, i havent' studied thasst many indepth, is gonna lead to forgiveness.. because they all in essence give the same message and lead to the same awareness. I'm a christian though myself...many reasons why!

 

peace happy cultivating!!

 

Ed

[ralis]

Wanted to give the forum my take on original sin.

 

Probably most of you don't accept it in shape or form, and that is why you have turned to daoism etc.

 

I'm not wishing to diss daoism.. i believe if i studied it carefully i'd find great similarities to christianity.

 

First off I think original sin has got a lot to do with being honest and following advice/instruction not really from authority but from a trusted one.

 

Adam and Eve were both warned against eating from the tree of knowledge. But they were "tempted" to eat by the serpent.

 

As such they were both cast to the earth where we all live and remain today. We have to work and survive amongst all that is here on earth.

 

The key word is "work". It was actually an order not a bit of advice.

 

But we are not really fullfilling this obligation. We try to make things easy for ourselves by way of technology and taking drugs/alcohol to ease the pain so to speak.

 

What this has done, and i know i don't need to point this out to any of you, is that we are in global crisis because of it.

 

Some get lazy and mentally unstable/ill through drugs and others become abusive/violent through alcohol.

 

Technology also has us become more and morte lazy and specifically the internet is rewiring our brains.

 

We were specifically told to plough the earth and eat of it. Also one of the commandments i thou shall not kill..but we are slaughtering the animals to eat.

 

Some say as in islam that we were forgiven, but then why are we still here? it's clear to me that it is about acceptance and being present and doing th work and learning to follow orders/advice.

 

In short, this life here on earth is one big learning process. And i'm guessing it is so that when we are forgiven and something changes..i don't know, messianic age, or we are in the light of spirit up above; it so that we don't make the same mistake again, and we learn to trust God once again and not be decieved and we stay strong and present in our spirituial awareness and don't give in to any temptations.

 

Thats why i again i guess, that the body works the way it does...jing,qi, shen... it's progressive and we have to make saccrifices and not give in to the sexual temptation or other indulgences.

 

You might think genesis is a harsh story/lesson, but just think what might be if they hadn't been decieved.

 

Sorry if i sound like a fundamentalist evangelical.... i'm not, i'm not disciplined at all! just hope some might see what io see.

 

For the record, i beleive any spiritual system, or at leat most of them, i havent' studied thasst many indepth, is gonna lead to forgiveness.. because they all in essence give the same message and lead to the same awareness. I'm a christian though myself...many reasons why!

 

peace happy cultivating!!

 

Ed

 

 

Exactly what are you here for? This had been debated ad infinitum and leads nowhere. Original sin, error or whatever just leads to more sorrow and anxiety. Has not the world had enough of this?

 

 

ralis

[Sloppy Zhang]

Heaven is a place with the eternal presence of God.

 

Hell is a place with the eternal absence of God.

 

 

Some people see God in everything, and leave incredibly Godly lives, doing great works.

 

Other people do not believe in God, commit crimes, and wallow in their own misery of life.

 

 

Where you live now can be Heaven.

 

Where you live now can be Hell.

 

 

So were we really ever cast out?

 

 

Maybe some of us feel guilty for falling into temptation of one sort or another, so we beat ourselves up over it and we think that we deserve to suffer, or at least, need to work really hard to get somewhere.

 

And maybe others feel like it was a lesson learned and move on with their lives, enjoying life.

 

 

 

 

Or maybe I'm wrong and going to hell

Edited February 28, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Marblehead]

Well, I have known some non-religious people who have done wonderful works and I have know religious people who have committed dasterdly crimes against humanity.

 

We were never cast out because both heaven and hell reside within each of us.

 

We will always be in the state that we conduct our life in.

 

Peace & Love!

[Dreamingawake]

[thelerner]

my 2 cents.

 

Not only is there no original sin, there was no Adam or Eve, IMHO. They are at best sacred stories, at worst another cultures mythology. I talked to an orthodox rabbi who surprisingly said it (bible before Abraham) could be taken as parable (or not).

 

That being said, like Dreamingawake, I'd also eat the fruit. Lolling around a garden is nice(particularly if you're a plant), but the challenges of a real world, with all its drama seems to me, much much better. Heaven can wait..

 

 

Michael

[effilang]

[Creation]

I posted some speculations about the relationship of the doctrine of original sin and the story of the fall to Taoism here:

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/12051-karma-and-original-sin/page__view__findpost__p__150694

where it was completely ignored. Maybe it will fare better here? But I am not as excited about discussing it this time around. Not it such a speculative mood...

 

Here is slightly altered reproduction of the post:

St. Paul talks about the two natures of mankind: the spiritual nature and the carnal nature. The carnal nature is identified with mankind's tendency toward sin and depravity. Note that Paul does say that the carnal nature is something that is intrinsic to people from birth and does mention a connection with Adam and Eve. Note also that he does not say whether the spiritual nature is or isn't intrinsic from birth. I think this is the reason that the sinful nature has been so emphasized in Christian circles. But it need not be so. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that both natures are intrinsic to humans, and it is not too much of a stretch to say that both are needed but one has been corrupted, which is the doctrine of the Fall. Is this starting to sound familiar? Here is what it reminds me of: spiritual nature = pre heaven nature, carnal nature = post heaven nature.

 

One of the words Paul uses to describe the carnal nature is psuchekos, as in pertaining to the psyche (as opposed to the spiritual nature being pneumatikos, or pertaining to spirit). In other words, our spiritual nature is something beyond our minds, while our mental nature has been corrupted and this is the cause of "sin". This, I think, was not understood as Christianity spread out into an environment stepped in Greek philosophy. I think if Christianity grew up in a place where Taoism was well known, the identification spiritual nature = pre heaven nature, carnal nature = post heaven nature would have been immediately recognized. It really makes perfect sense to see it that way. Think about the story of the Fall in Genesis. What was the cause of the trouble? Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and then could no longer eat from the tree of life. WOW! That is just about as Taoist as it gets!

 

As I write this, I wonder how good my memory of the Bible is and I remind myself that I am no expert in New Testament Greek. I could be totally off base with all of this. Caveat emptor.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Creation

[RyanO]

Hi Edward, very interesting topic!

 

As you can see, you will probably not find many who agree with your perspective here But it's good to bring up nonetheless

 

This is because I think the doctrine of original sin is what separates the Abrahamic traditions from most of the other world's religions. I think most people don't understand the significance of this topic, particularly liberal Christians. If the doctrine is true, this has HUGE ramifications for the way we should think and behave.

 

Original sin is basically a solution to the problem of pain. It is clear that if God is all-powerful and all-loving, as we define them, then something is amiss. For Christians, it's that we disobeyed God. According to Christianity, evil and pain are our fault. I am not a Christian and I think this doctrine is too easy and false.

 

Religions have various answers/solutions for the problem of evil. For the Eastern traditions, the problem is more complex. Many schools of Hinduism and Buddhism have Maya, that the material world is an illusion and clinging to that illusion is what brings pain.

 

My own view is that there is no such thing as good or evil, only imbalance. Pleasure and pain are two sides of the same coin. We are children of Nature (the Tao) and are created to seek pleasure. But from Nature's perspective, pain is just as necessary and holy as pleasure. It is simply our dislike for Nature's rules that we create fabricate dogmas like original sin.

[RyanO]

 

This is because I think the doctrine of original sin is what separates the Abrahamic traditions from most of the other world's religions. I think most people don't understand the significance of this topic, particularly liberal Christians. If the doctrine is true, this has HUGE ramifications for the way we should think and behave.

 

 

To clarify.

 

Are we fundamentally guilty?

 

Abrahamic traditions: yes.

 

Other religions: no.

 

Big ramifications.

[Mattimo]

I don't really have much to comment about, regarding original sin. However, to me, the tree of knowledge of good and evil represents the birth of the ego and/or the trap of duality. Moreover, when God warned Adam and Eve that they would die "he" was referring to the thought-conceived notion of death which arises from identification with the ego/knowledge.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I don't really have much to comment about, regarding original sin. However, to me, the tree of knowledge of good and evil represents the birth of the ego and/or the trap of duality. Moreover, when God warned Adam and Eve that they would die "he" was referring to the thought-conceived notion of death which arises from identification with the ego/knowledge.

 

Amazing perspective, truly. I had not thought of it that way before. Definitely a post everyone should read and think about.

 

Creation: those were some good insights, it's too bad your post was ignored before. Then again, I have noticed that many of the best posts, posts that I have wound up saving on my own computer, are posts that fly under the radar. Maybe it's because when reading them, people don't feel they have anything to comment on, it is a complete thought, and they find themselves poking and prodding on something they feel needs more exploration.

 

Anyways, here's hoping that all good posts get recognition in the future

[Mattimo]

Wow, I had read the entire thread but somehow missed Creation's post. I believe we have similar ideas on this topic; moreover, the information regarding St. Paul is truly interesting. Mental corruption parallels my synthesis of "understanding" also.

 

Sin could very well refer to the product and/or birth of the ego. We all know the ego has kinetic tendencies that can create it's own and ultimately our own "hell" (if we let it). One only has to look at his/her life or the state of the world in general to see this. A young child thusly evolves with these tendencies as well; he/she doesn't have a chance. I believe the concept of sin, relevant to the bible, may be overlooked and also overshadowed with negativity because of what Christianity and the bible represents to some people. The concept of sin isn't intrinsically negative or evil, it merely is.

 

-Matt

Edited March 1, 2010 by Mattimo

[electric chi magnet]

No your missing the point entirely.

 

 

For one i will say demons exsist and they have creeped there way into daoism.

 

We were all born spiritually dead. (meaning what?)- Meaning that when we became old enough to think the only needs we heard came from our BODIES NOT OUR SPIRIT. Meaning that what we sensed was only hunger, cold, tiredness and so on. We didnt hear our spiritual needs at all because they were dead inside us.

 

Being good to our fellow man isnt natrual because we were born dead to our own spiritual needs and pain. Thus living life accumilating alot of bad karma.

 

It was by the grace of god that the original shawmen were a little more attune to a higher bandwidth of reality. But understand that is was only thru their observations that they started to learn about spiritual needs. It did not speak to them like a vibration inside them.

 

Before the time of christ the auric field of the earth was very heavy and dark like it is now and there was also no value put on human life.

 

The christ child like the golden child was a nei kung prophecy

 

It wasnt called christianity back then it was just the word of the prophets and sages.(before Jesus)

 

 

 

(yeah i had to cut this post short or it would have turned into a book)

[Dreamingawake]

No your missing the point entirely.

 

 

For one i will say demons exsist and they have creeped there way into daoism.

 

We were all born spiritually dead. (meaning what?)- Meaning that when we became old enough to think the only needs we heard came from our BODIES NOT OUR SPIRIT. Meaning that what we sensed was only hunger, cold, tiredness and so on. We didnt hear our spiritual needs at all because they were dead inside us.

 

Being good to our fellow man isnt natrual because we were born dead to our own spiritual needs and pain. Thus living life accumilating alot of bad karma.

 

It was by the grace of god that the original shawmen were a little more attune to a higher bandwidth of reality. But understand that is was only thru their observations that they started to learn about spiritual needs. It did not speak to them like a vibration inside them.

 

Before the time of christ the auric field of the earth was very heavy and dark like it is now and there was also no value put on human life.

 

The christ child like the golden child was a nei kung prophecy

 

It wasnt called christianity back then it was just the word of the prophets and sages.(before Jesus)

 

 

 

(yeah i had to cut this post short or it would have turned into a book)

 

That sure is an awful lot of assertions and judgements for just one post Care to back them up with some examples/observations or maybe even a bit of logic? Basically, I mean show your work (like in math class back in elementary).

 

How did you come to the conclusion that we're all born dead inside? Why do you think being good to others is unnatural. How do you know all of history was 'heavy and dark' before jesus came along and saved the day? Maybe it was all sunshine and roses or maybe it was horrible but horus saved the world. Or it could have been mithras. All three have nearly identical stories but horus and mithras came much earlier so maybe they did it and jesus just took credit

 

Or maybe I'm dead inside because demons( ) have creeped into my soul and im just trying to lead you astray from the ONE TRUE GOD :wacko:

 

edit: typos

Edited March 1, 2010 by Dreamingawake

[electric chi magnet]

Dreamingawake,

 

You only expressed emotion in your post you didnt actually ask me one particular question. I have to wonder why you would take such a general post so personally to use it to insult me? When we have never spoken before it does sound like you have some of your own demons to fight.

 

either way your not healthy and it shows in your post. Just look at all the emoticons you have in it.

 

If you dont think that(demons)are real then maybe you havent progressed that far in your training yet?

 

You assume before asking you need to get past your notion of knowingness and get back to pure feeling.

 

YOUR TOO YANG!!!....maybe that will get the point across.

Edited March 1, 2010 by electric chi magnet

[soaring crane]

Christ was a useful tree that got chopped down, as useful trees always do. The antithesis of Daoist teachings.

 

My daughter learned the Garden of Eden story in school last year (third grade - they teach "Religion" here, choose your religion - Catholic or Protestant). She told me the story and I replied that the God didn't sound like a very good father to me. When she asked why I explained that I'd never throw her out of the house for breaking a silly rule (of course that's not what the parable is really about, but try explaining that to a Church Lady, or a Conservative third grade Religion teacher).

 

The idea that we're "born guilty" is a purely human convention, a product of one-sided, cynical, manipulative human reasoning. Guilt and innocence occur simultaneously, the presence of one dictates the existence of the other (sounds familiar, lol). Why choose to stress the one and not embrace the duality?

[三江源]

As I experience it, the feeling of original sin, it's genesis, is the appalling pain of feeling separate from God.

 

And there is a terrible sense of shame that arises from that feeling.

[rex]

There's the idea of sin as separation from God. One interpretation of the coats of skin given to Adam and Eve is that after the Fall they were given physical materiality, i.e. physical bodies, as had they stayed in their pre-Fall Garden of Eve spiritual form, they could have caused creation a lot of damage (just looking around the planet now is bad enough!)

 

Original sin in the newborn may refer to how connections with the upper spiritual realms are diminished once physical form is taken so the rite of baptism is used to restablish the links.

 

Now there's a Buddhist teaching on how humanity used to be immaterial energetic beings living for thousands of years without the need for food but through the insidious effects of the five posions gradually declined to become physical beings relying on food - I'll dig it out.

 

Later Edit: On second thoughts I won't dig it out - the jist has been mentioned and I don't want to be a Buddha Botherer in the wrong thread.

Edited March 2, 2010 by rex

[Mattimo]

Electric chi magnet, on the matter of demons, I believe them to be mental in origin. That is to say, mentally created by strong emotions and/or thoughts of living or formally living things. These seemingly immaterial forms likely do indeed have a form in finer/subtler realities.

 

-Matt

[Creation]

Wow, I had read the entire thread but somehow missed Creation's post.

I think this is what happened in the other thread too. It had a different "feel" to it than when people just don't feel like responding to me (which has happened to me quite a bit)

 

I don't really have much to comment about, regarding original sin. However, to me, the tree of knowledge of good and evil represents the birth of the ego and/or the trap of duality. Moreover, when God warned Adam and Eve that they would die "he" was referring to the thought-conceived notion of death which arises from identification with the ego/knowledge.

This is more or less what I had in mind when I said "How much more Taoist can you get", but I didn't quite know how to phrase it in Taoist (as opposed to Dharmic) terms, so I left it cryptic.

 

People bring so much baggage to the table when looking at the Bible that they can't see the gems within it. They just see "This is a contradiction" "This doesn't make sense [read: to me]" "This is so archaic" "Science has disproven this" "That YHWH guy sounds like a jerk", etc. Or, on the other hand, they see "This is what my pastor told me" "The Bible [read: my particular interpretation of the Bible] is the absolute literal infallible Word of God" "Someone told me if I don't believe in these precise theological doctrines or follow these rules I will burn in hell for all eternity", etc. Both prevent a person from being open to the deeper meaning.

 

Not that I know the deeper meaning... maybe one day.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Creation

[Creation]

The Bible is so veiled. There is so much that I read and think "this is only a small piece of a much bigger picture". Especially books like Genesis, Daniel, Revelation, most of what Jesus said, and much of what Paul and John say in their epistles.

[Dreamingawake]

Dreamingawake,

 

You only expressed emotion in your post you didnt actually ask me one particular question. I have to wonder why you would take such a general post so personally to use it to insult me? When we have never spoken before it does sound like you have some of your own demons to fight.

 

either way your not healthy and it shows in your post. Just look at all the emoticons you have in it.

 

If you dont think that(demons)are real then maybe you havent progressed that far in your training yet?

 

You assume before asking you need to get past your notion of knowingness and get back to pure feeling.

 

YOUR TOO YANG!!!....maybe that will get the point across.

 

 

Relax sunshine. I'm not insulting you and I didn't take anything personally You might want to follow suit.

I happen to like emoticons (they're so cute ) and I was in an especially goofy mood last night. I also never said that demons weren't real (quite the contrary IME).

 

I simply thought your post was composed entirely of baseless assertions. If you want someone to understand/believe you or to take what you say seriously, it helps to explain yourself and how you came to those conclusions with some form of logic rather than just saying this is how it is.

 

I could come out and say that pink leprechauns stole your socks but that doesn't make it true and gives you no reason to believe me. It's just a baseless assertion with nothing to stand on. I actually did ask you some very particular questions about your post but since you apparently missed them here they are in no particular order:

 

1. How did you come to the conclusion that we're all born dead inside?

 

2. Why do you think being good is unnatural?

 

3. How do you know that the entire history of the world was all 'heavy and dark' before jesus came and saved the day?

 

4. how do you know that jesus saved the day at all? there is nothing original about jesus' story as it's an almost exact cut-and-paste of MANY deities before him.

 

Please try and explain these without telling me how unhealthy I am or saying that I've been tricked by demons. Also try to avoid things like 'i just know', 'thats just the way it is', 'because I said so', another emotional outburst or any other form of deflection. I would like to take you seriously (seriously.. not joking) but if you can't properly explain your ideas then that becomes really difficult. Thats partly why my post was so goofy. When I read your post I literally burst out laughing. Again, I WAS already in a goofy mood so it's not ENTIRELY your fault.

[Edward M]

As i unederstand it, the bible is the story of the journey of the soul.

 

In exodus, moses is the human will touched by the presence of god, and wondeering through the wilderness is the journey, mount sinai is the ascension to union with god.

 

You can look at the whole of the bible and new testemant and being an even broader account of the same journey ending in Jesus as being in union with God.

 

Sorry if i upset anyone with my first post.

 

peace

~Ed

[ralis]

The Bible is so veiled. There is so much that I read and think "this is only a small piece of a much bigger picture". Especially books like Genesis, Daniel, Revelation, most of what Jesus said, and much of what Paul and John say in their epistles.

 

The Bible was a creation of the early Catholic church at the "Council if Nicea". A lot of letters were put together in a political framework to give power to the church!

 

 

ralis