Stripping The Gurus

[ralis]

I think we need to stop making absolute judgments and strip ourselves first.

 

Trungpa was an alcoholic! He regularly had a bottle of sake that he drank from during teachings. Are you denying he had an addiction problem? However, since he was a highly realized being, you believe everything he did was for the higher cause of enlightenment? I guess the higher cause of sleeping with every female student to enlighten them was ok? Furthermore, his successor knowingly passed on AIDS to many male and female students. Do you approve of this behavior?

 

 

ralis

[sifusufi]

Art Blakey's jazz messages

By John Ramsay, Art Blakey

 

Benny Green on Art Tatum

 

"Art said to me, "You have to figure a way to get beyond Art Tatum" He said it to me on several occasions and whenever he would say it I would usually break into laughter because I figured he was teasin' me (because the piano can't be played better than Art Tatum played it).

 

But I've thought about it a lot since and the way I like to interpret what he was saying and perhaps what he really meant, is you have to get beyond imitating any influence; anyone who has been a musical hero or an inspiration should serve as a means to spur you on to new heights of creativity and individuality (rather seeing what they did as a finality).

 

So I believe that is what he really meant. Rather than say play the piano faster than Art Tatum played it or more proficiently,

I think he meant: get beyond just looking at someone else s contribution in awe and really get down to the heart of the matter, [which] in jazz is really developing your own voice as an individual."

 

excerpt

 

Art Blakey's jazz messages

By John Ramsay, Art Blakey

[Birch]

This is a good thread.

 

I don't know much about gurus because the only ones I have are here online and in my head, my heart and my dreams. But I do know about something closer, which is my parents. I suppose I can make a comparison because if the idea is that you give everything up, it's sort of like being born again to a different mother.

 

Would you willingly be born to someone? If so, then who would it be? Would you be willingly born to a drunkard? Someone who beat you? How about someone who would have sex with you? Someone who would tear down your ego? Make you do things you would never do, just to push your limits?

 

Or would you be willingly born to someone who will only strip you of all certainty? Then may I humbly suggest you select life itself as guru? If this Karma-reincarnation gig is working properly then that's what it's for.

[lifeforce]

Trungpa was an alcoholic! He regularly had a bottle of sake that he drank from during teachings. Are you denying he had an addiction problem? However, since he was a highly realized being, you believe everything he did was for the higher cause of enlightenment? I guess the higher cause of sleeping with every female student to enlighten them was ok? Furthermore, his successor knowingly passed on AIDS to many male and female students. Do you approve of this behavior?

 

 

ralis

 

It is horrendous that people think it's fine to display this sort of behaviour in the name of 'religion'.

Like the pope turning a blind eye to decades of peadophilia within the catholic church.

Or those sadist zen monks who physically abused and 'forced' their students into full lotus.

Disgusting.

[Birch]

It is horrendous that people think it's fine to display this sort of behaviour in the name of 'religion'.

Like the pope turning a blind eye to decades of peadophilia within the catholic church.

Or those sadist zen monks who physically abused and 'forced' their students into full lotus.

Disgusting.

 

 

That's because people make religion. Religion is what happens when your own connection is lost. Religion is when you give up your own uncertainty to someone else (or when they won't let you have it in the first place) Why give up your own uncertainty? Its yours for god's sake!

 

Don't get me wrong, I love (mostly) everyone that has ever taught me anything. But in the end, who is the person doing these techniques? Who is the person meditating? Who is doing yoga? Who is doing qi-gong? It's still "you". You might end up different after cultivation but you're still "you" (whatever we care to define that as, and yes, your perception of yourself will change).

[-O-]

 

It is horrendous that people think it's fine to display this sort of behaviour in the name of 'religion'.

 

 

 

 

Dude, there have been way more horrendous acts done (and being done) in the name of "religion" than wick-wetting and drinking. I can't think of a "religion" that is free of horrendous acts being done in its name.... both on a personal level or an instituitional level. At least with Trungpa it is a man's shortcomings conflicting with an ideological role bestowed upon him (not condoning) - this at least can be realted to as people who have made mistakes and ran through delusional dramas in the past... What I find horrifiing is peoples belief that their religions' horrendous actions are "right" on an institutional or fundamental level. One of those acts is to claim their leadership and representatives are speaking on behalf of the divine or are representatives of the divine and thus somehow "above" its following. How insulting to the divinity in each and everyone of us... and how avoidant of the flaws their representation are capable of. I think the need to strip Gurus is there because on some level we are being sold that the people we are seeking guidance from are somehow better, more advanced, "higher" then the rest of us; that they are doing us a favour.. sic

[Vajrahridaya]

I think the need to strip Gurus is there because on some level we are being sold that the people we are seeking guidance from are somehow better, more advanced, "higher" then the rest of us; that they are doing us a favour..

 

Many times they actually are, but not in an absolute sense like the Adi Da liked to claim about himself, but only in a relative sense, more like what the Buddha said.

[ralis]

Many times they actually are, but not in an absolute sense like the Adi Da liked to claim about himself, but only in a relative sense, more like what the Buddha said.

 

You approve of what Trungpa and his successor did?

 

ralis

[Birch]

on some level we are being sold that the people we are seeking guidance from are somehow better, more advanced, "higher" then the rest of us; that they are doing us a favour.. sic

 

THIS!

 

Cure: don't buy it

[Vajrahridaya]

THIS!

 

Cure: don't buy it

 

It takes humility to really learn from a teacher and good karma to have a good one. Some people are worthy of veneration. The ones that are, are generally unassuming and very humble themselves.

[-O-]

It takes humility to really learn from a teacher and good karma to have a good one. Some people are worthy of veneration. The ones that are, are generally unassuming and very humble themselves.

 

 

You drink too much cool-aid.

[Vajrahridaya]

You drink too much cool-aid.

 

Maybe you don't drink enough? This whole anti-teacher culture is a very sad one... quite egotistical.

 

Yes, some Gurus are fake and need to be stripped, some are only half fake and half true, and many mean well and have many realizations worthy of being heard or felt, but still have some issues, and others are quite worthy of veneration as they have trotted the path to the end of their neurosis and have much, much to offer those of us who are still struggling with our neurotic envelopments.

 

Those that think no one could be worthy enough to teach the masses something valuable or even highly enlightening are quite caught up in themselves and don't know much about the path to liberation. It is quite natural for a genuine seeker to want to sit at the feet of someone who has realized the nature of everything, and not just say he or she has, as they generally don't, but actually does have direct cognizance of the nature of mind and phenomena. There wouldn't be any fake Gurus if there weren't any real ones.

 

The Guru disciple relationship is an incredible one, very deep. The vast majority of enlightened beings realize what they know through humility to a teacher who equally humbled themselves to a teacher, and so on and so forth. About 99.9 percent in fact.

 

If we had a planet of enlightened beings, we wouldn't need any Guru's, but we don't so we need them.

 

 

.....................................................................

May they fulfill their promise to help us who are wallowing in the mud of pride and egoism and keep taking re-birth in order to teach and clarify the dharma!

 

May the bitter hearts who spite you great and venerable masters of the dharma be opened up by the rays of your realizations!

[-O-]

Maybe you don't drink enough? This whole anti-teacher culture is a very sad one... quite egotistical.

 

 

 

Those that think no one could be worthy enough to teach the masses something valuable or even highly enlightening are quite caught up in themselves and don't know much about the path to liberation.

 

 

 

I don't believe that no one is worthy to teach - nor do I believe teachers should not be respected. I do believe that the guru-student relationship has its flaws and has much room for improvement and that the relationship has not evolved because it is not challenged nor its flaws confronted because of the very nature of the relationship. And then these shortcomings are preserved as the students become the teachers and the flaws become part of the teaching.

 

Actually I think it may be being challenged in the West and is then met with the prejudice that western minds are so F#$)ked up and westerns are disrespectful.

 

I see your posts allot and it appears to me you are well read - but not well thought out. Seems a regurgitation of rented knowledge - drunk on the kool-aid of your teachers. Not meant to bash at you but rather a challenge to express what you have assimilated - have individuated.

 

I would rather jump out of a plane without a parachute to KNOW that I can not fly then live in delusional belief that I can - a belief that is there simply because "teachers says so". To each their own and to you, with a raised glass of kool-aid for you, I say "Cheers".

[Vajrahridaya]

I don't believe that no one is worthy to teach - nor do I believe teachers should not be respected. I do believe that the guru-student relationship has its flaws and has much room for improvement and that the relationship has not evolved because it is not challenged nor its flaws confronted because of the very nature of the relationship. And then these shortcomings are preserved as the students become the teachers and the flaws become part of the teaching.

 

Actually I think it may be being challenged in the West and is then met with the prejudice that western minds are so F#$)ked up and westerns are disrespectful.

 

I see your posts allot and it appears to me you are well read - but not well thought out. Seems a regurgitation of rented knowledge - drunk on the kool-aid of your teachers. Not meant to bash at you but rather a challenge to express what you have assimilated - have individuated.

 

I would rather jump out of a plane without a parachute to KNOW that I can not fly then live in delusional belief that I can - a belief that is there simply because "teachers says so". To each their own and to you, with a raised glass of kool-aid for you, I say "Cheers".

 

Well... the Western mind is quite flawed in it's constant projection of flaws and lack of self investigation, that's for sure. Really the majority of humanity is quite into this flawed thinking, this error correction error.

 

 

When you experience directly the nature of everything through the glance of a really opened and wise one, without actually conjuring it, but just by being open and willing to learn... you know. One experiences in one elongated moment beyond time enough information to fill volumes. Should I start boasting of my experiences in meditation? I will mostly just talk sutra. I try not to share my experiences as people generally like to stomp on them or use the information against me later... Which is why Teachers say only share your experiences with people on the same path as you or the teachers.

 

I'm pretty flawed in my being a student and I question myself more than the teacher because I'm here to work on myself, not my teacher. Of course, I've experienced enough through my Guru to know that he's very, very deeply wise, far beyond what I have realized thus far, but he never makes me think that I am lower than him... quite the contrary actually.

 

Like I said... this anti-Guru rant is pretty egotistical. Not all Gurus are truly wise, but the vast majority of students are definitely not wise.

 

What I have individuated is going to be hopefully at best, no different from what the great timeless teachers have spoken. I am not here to stand out, just regurgitate as you say... LOL! the truth of things which has not changed one bit.

 

What I speak of though, I have directly intuited. If you meditate for many hours a day and give yourself fully to a path of yoga for many years, it will bare fruit to the degree that you have let yourself go into it. I am no Buddha though, but merely a wana be. So definitely take what I say with a grain of salt and investigate for yourself of course.

[-O-]

...

What I speak of though, I have directly intuited. If you meditate for many hours a day and give yourself fully to a path of yoga for many years, it will bare fruit to the degree that you have let yourself go into it. I am no Buddha though, but merely a wana be. So definitely take what I say with a grain of salt and investigate for yourself of course.

 

 

Ok.

[Birch]

"Western mind is quite flawed in it's constant projection of flaws and lack of self investigation"

 

I don't agree with this. I'm personally flawed but certainly have a decent level of self-investigation to count on. I'd tend more to say that Western traditions of insight such as critical thinking and contemplation have fallen out of favour. Why?

 

I also don't believe in venerating anyone. Certainly I get impressed by people (as well as their abilities, talents, intelligence and heart) and any good teacher I have of anything deserves my respect. But that's all.

 

As far as I can understand so far, the guru relationship is a way to "help" tear down one's egoic construction so that one may see what it is made of. Many techniques are used by "gurus" to do this including:

 

- NLP /hypnosis

- humiliation to induce suffering

- physical deprivation

- forced intimacy

- ritual

- symbolic manipulation

 

Yet people reach stages of awakening and insight all the time without any recourse to guru, through simple living. In fact I'm tempted to suggest that recourse to guru is a sign of an ego that doesn't want to give it up. If it did, why would it take you there?

[-O-]

"Western mind is quite flawed in it's constant projection of flaws and lack of self investigation"

 

I don't agree with this. ..

As far as I can understand so far, the guru relationship is a way to "help" tear down one's egoic construction so that one may see what it is made of. Many techniques are used by "gurus" to do this ...

 

Yet people reach stages of awakening and insight all the time without any recourse to guru, through simple living. In fact I'm tempted to suggest that recourse to guru is a sign of an ego that doesn't want to give it up.

 

 

A decade or two ago I came across an interview with Joseph Campbell where he talked about the differences of Eastern and Western ventures into the mystery which rings true for me... he talked of the Grail mythology where Arthur and the knights reach the edge of the forest (the mystery). Aruthur tells them (or was it percival) that he has found the grail - it is in there (the forest). He tells them to split up and enter the forest each alone to search for the grail. Campbell mentioned that in Eastern mythology this is different - the leader says "follow me, I have found the path, I can show you how to cross the stream" then guides them along the route they have found, where Western mythology it is more like "I've found it - it is somewhere in there - now go find it for yourself".

 

I've spent sometime in the East and found the family dynamic and goals of the young to hinge off of service or honor to the family. Their accomplshiment / achievement is to be added to the achivements of the family - sort of pooling resources, and there is great respect and subservviance to the head of the family. Where I find my expereince in the west is that we are expected one day to leave thy fathers home, set forth on our own to build our own, independant home... sort of "go beyond". Thus I think the emphasis on individuality in the West.

 

I think appropriate behaviour expected from students (bow at the feet etc) stems from a cultural foundation which is different in the west. Its based on this family dynamic - so it is expected that you already know these rules and have some refined skill with them - when you enter into the relationship (and how to morderate and be responsible or balanced with in it). Tthese rules are sometimes counter intuitive to the Westerner because of cultural differences. We sort of have to learn the finer details of the emotional monitoring/balancing while being in the relationship. Baptism by fire.

 

I think either has their merits but have found people accustom to this type of Eastern relationship either by culture or through things like martial arts tend to eventually reject the Western foundation as neurotic, flippant, disrespectful etc. and it's not - it's just different.

 

I also think nuances in Eastern teachings tend to aggravate this difference which adds more difficulty/confusion with western students (and the student get blamed for it). One being the Guru mediations and protocols (meditatons ont he Guru etc.) to the western mind - whose only similar context for this type of activity sort of the Chirstian "have you given yourself to Jesus" sort of thing - so the intial response is more of a a religious or godly worship. With time this may iron out and when the dust has clear there may have been some lessons of mind - but was it really just learning the nuances of a cultural difference - after all - any activity given enough dedicated effort will eventually be a lesson in mind.

Edited May 16, 2010 by -O-

[Apech]

A decade or two ago I came across an interview with Joseph Campbell where he talked about the differences of Eastern and Western ventures into the mystery which rings true for me...

 

 

 

Great post -O-.

[Creation]

I also think nuances in Eastern teachings tend to aggravate this difference which adds more difficulty/confusion with western students (and the student get blamed for it). One being the Guru mediations and protocols (meditatons ont he Guru etc.) to the western mind - whose only similar context for this type of activity sort of the Chirstian "have you given yourself to Jesus" sort of thing - so the intial response is more of a a religious or godly worship. With time this may iron out and when the dust has clear there may have been some lessons of mind - but was it really just learning the nuances of a cultural difference - after all - any activity given enough dedicated effort will eventually be a lesson in mind.

A very astute and thought provoking observation.

 

I for one am much inclined to religious devotion/worship, and am eager to find the right way in which to give this impulse expression. ("Right way" meaning most efficacious for my spiritual evolution.)

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Scotty wuz here Edited May 16, 2010 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[C T]

"A decade or two ago ...... any activity given enough dedicated effort will eventually be a lesson in mind."

Worth noting. Thanks!

 

Having been brought up in the East, and spending 20 years in the West, i can vouch for the accuracy of this observation.

[Vajrahridaya]

"Western mind is quite flawed in it's constant projection of flaws and lack of self investigation"

 

I don't agree with this. I'm personally flawed but certainly have a decent level of self-investigation to count on. I'd tend more to say that Western traditions of insight such as critical thinking and contemplation have fallen out of favour. Why?

 

Generally speaking the Western mind has always only been critical of externals and except for the few mystical traditions that sprang from various places in the West most likely influenced by the East during the silk road trades of ancient times, we are suffering from the Western idea that life is somehow flawed and needs to be fixed. The error correction error. Like for instance, bugs eat fruit, so they spray fruit with anti-bug spray which has now destroyed so many eco-systems. This is a system of critical thinking that is quite flawed and very much a Western invention, kind of like the hemispheres of the brain are plastered on the planet as well, the linear minded left side or West side and the abstract thinking right side or East side. Of course Western ideas of materialism have taken over the planet and now we're kind of merging the two. There is no problem with some outer critical thinking, but in most cases, it's externalized out of self avoidance.

 

 

I also don't believe in venerating anyone. Certainly I get impressed by people (as well as their abilities, talents, intelligence and heart) and any good teacher I have of anything deserves my respect. But that's all.

 

When one experiences the deep opening of the heart on a level transcending ego and duality, you can't help but venerate the lineage that helped you get there... it's automatic and cannot be forced. So, you only believe within the condition of your thus far remembered experience. Your belief is a condition. If you want the non-dual experience directly... just question the beliefs is all. The traditions from the East come from a deep, deep space, they are not flawed, we are. Not every messenger coming from these Eastern traditions is the best messenger either... which is why they even say question a Guru for 9 years before you decide to open yourself to the person.

 

As far as I can understand so far, the guru relationship is a way to "help" tear down one's egoic construction so that one may see what it is made of. Many techniques are used by "gurus" to do this including:

 

- NLP /hypnosis

- humiliation to induce suffering

- physical deprivation

- forced intimacy

- ritual

- symbolic manipulation

 

Yet people reach stages of awakening and insight all the time without any recourse to guru, through simple living. In fact I'm tempted to suggest that recourse to guru is a sign of an ego that doesn't want to give it up. If it did, why would it take you there?

 

You don't have much experience of a Guru/Disciple relationship so what your stating is coming from reading Western minds trashing Guru/Disciple relationships.

 

Sure you can come to some insight just through living deeply, but we are not aware of our blind spots and an illumined Guru will be, only if truly illumined though.

 

It's really about the methods that one takes into life and integrates into life that one gets from a qualified master of various methods that breed particular results which lead to self/nature realization. It's not about being a sucker for some persons subjective ideas about things. It's about receiving the tools in order to have the realization yourself and getting guidance so you know you are using the tools correctly. But something much deeper happens when there is a truly illumined teacher giving spiritual tools and initiation into using the lineage tools properly. If you have not experienced this deeply special transference and there are different types, then of course you will not understand the depth of a Guru/Disciple relationship. Not all transmissions have the same intentions or same level of fruit involved as well.

 

But, they say... when you are ready the Master appears. If a person is still walled in by all sorts of views and beliefs, then openness cannot occur and the person is not ready for the paradigm shift that can be offered by a truly enlightened Guru of a truly enlightened lineage. I'm not talking about fake Guru's here either.

Edited May 16, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

A decade or two ago I came across an interview with Joseph Campbell where he talked about the differences of Eastern and Western ventures into the mystery which rings true for me...

 

Yes, Joseph Campbell is an interesting mind.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Perhaps if written this way:

 

 

 

 

When I experience the deep opening of the heart on a level transcending ego and duality, I can't help but venerate the lineage that helped me get there... it's automatic and cannot be forced. So, I only believe within the condition of my thus far remembered experience. My belief is a condition. If I want the non-dual experience directly... just question the beliefs is all. The traditions from the East come from a deep, deep space, they are not flawed, I am. Not every messenger coming from these Eastern traditions is the best messenger either... which is why they even say question a Guru for 9 years before you decide to open yourself to the person.

 

 

 

It seems like you are a guru/disciple type person. Not everybody is. To generalize that everyone must go that way shows a great blindness to other than your own experience...If I recall correctly, you were an acolyte in the SYDA yoga tradition. I (and many many others) consider it a corrupt and very creepy organization. So there are all types of paths, and there is no one Right Way.

[Vajrahridaya]

Perhaps if written this way:

 

 

 

It seems like you are a guru/disciple type person. Not everybody is. To generalize that everyone must go that way shows a great blindness to other than your own experience...If I recall correctly, you were an acolyte in the SYDA yoga tradition. I (and many many others) consider it a corrupt and very creepy organization. So there are all types of paths, and there is no one Right Way.

 

You can apply your change of my post to yourself as well. But yes... I still suffer from flawed perception and can readily admit it.

 

But your consideration of SYDA is wrong and also deeply flawed, and based on information mal-nourishment. You can argue until your face turns blue about your ideas of creepiness. I do know better.

 

It's a good path with incredibly realized people on it, it's goal is just not complete in my opinion so I became Buddhist. Also, much of the issues with it aren't the fault of the individuals but the Hindu philosophy idea that there is a God to become one with, which is merely a mis-interpretation of meditative experience according to the Buddha and all educated Buddhists. This very interpretation leads beings to think they are fully enlightened and one with God, so they teach certain things that lead others to venerate this Guru in a certain way that is not so objective. The teachers of SYDA though are honorable people, contrary to what you read on internet bash sites conjured by confused Western minds.

 

I do find Buddhism more objective though and more complete of a perspective on the Guru/Disciple relationship, which is why I left Siddha Yoga, not because I believe your or your friends perspectives on it.