Stripping The Gurus

[Vajrahridaya]

 

It seems like you are a guru/disciple type person.

 

No one gets to the later stages of development without enlightened guidance, either living or from beyond, or after death from another realm of existence. That's just how non-duality works in order to make some final crushes to the ego and sense of concrete separation from other beings. You don't inherently exist by yourself to begin with.

 

Clearly of course, there are going to be more people not ready for later stages than those that are. But, even reading a good book by a good teacher from a good lineage is enough to make a sub-conscious connection that lasts beyond this life.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

That's your take on it. I disagree that "no one" does. Your generalizing your experience again and saying "this is how it is". There are lots of people who disagree with your viewpoint. it may be true for you, but not everyone. Most of what you say you apply as if it were Universal Truth. It's not.

 

As for Siddha Yoga, to each his own. I'm sure there is spiritual juice there, it's just not a clean organization. I'm sure you got a lot out of it. When I spent a few minutes one on one with Gurumayi once, I experienced/perceived a creepy vibe. You perceived/experienced something else. And you too, can argue til your blue in the face about them, and it's all subjective. In my opinion, any large hierarchical religious organization suffers over time with the usual human foibles and faults, those gurus are all too vulnerable to succumb to the power and trust placed unquestioningly in them. And please spare me the argument that Muktananda was giving some sort of spiritual "darshan" with his sexual experiences with his young (often teen) female disciples. If you really believe that, there's little hope for you to be clear on anything...

Edited May 16, 2010 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[Vajrahridaya]

That's your take on it. I disagree that "no one" does. Your generalizing your experience again and saying "this is how it is". There are lots of people who disagree with your viewpoint. it may be true for you, but not everyone. Most of what you say you apply as if it were Universal Truth. It's not.

 

It's also what Masters say who are far beyond the points of views of the deluded masses. It's just a fact of non-duality that your own enlightened nature will pop out into a seemingly other being in order to mirror your out-turned awareness back in on itself. It is in fact a universal Truth. Eventually, everyone comes to meet their enlightened nature in a seemingly other person in order to get through the more tenuous self attachments.

 

As for Siddha Yoga, to each his own. I'm sure there is spiritual juice there, it's just not a clean organization. I'm sure you got a lot out of it. When I spent a few minutes with Gurumayi once, I experienced/perceived a creepy vibe. You perceived/experienced something else.

At the same time... there is an ignorance there, and it's really just the fault of the philosophy. So no, it's not squeaky clean, even philosophically.

 

If you don't have a karmic connection to something, this will make itself very clear through mirroring this truth to you in some way. The people there don't open their arms to you but greet other people without knowing they're ignoring you, the teacher makes movements that bother you somehow and remind you of something creepy in your subconscious or forgotten past. It's really just you though.

Edited May 16, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[sifusufi]

Art Blakey's jazz messages

By John Ramsay, Art Blakey

 

Benny Green on Art Tatum

 

"Art said to me, "You have to figure a way to get beyond Art Tatum" He said it to me on several occasions and whenever he would say it I would usually break into laughter because I figured he was teasin' me (because the piano can't be played better than Art Tatum played it).

 

But I've thought about it a lot since and the way I like to interpret what he was saying and perhaps what he really meant, is you have to get beyond imitating any influence; anyone who has been a musical hero or an inspiration should serve as a means to spur you on to new heights of creativity and individuality (rather seeing what they did as a finality).

 

So I believe that is what he really meant. Rather than say play the piano faster than Art Tatum played it or more proficiently,

I think he meant: get beyond just looking at someone else s contribution in awe and really get down to the heart of the matter, [which] in jazz is really developing your own voice as an individual."

 

excerpt

 

Art Blakey's jazz messages

By John Ramsay, Art Blakey

 

What would L. Ron Hoover do?

 

 

 

rajneesh?

 

 

[ralis]

It's also what Masters say who are far beyond the points of views of the deluded masses. It's just a fact of non-duality that your own enlightened nature will pop out into a seemingly other being in order to mirror your out-turned awareness back in on itself. It is in fact a universal Truth. Eventually, everyone comes to meet their enlightened nature in a seemingly other person in order to get through the more tenuous self attachments.

 

 

At the same time... there is an ignorance there, and it's really just the fault of the philosophy. So no, it's not squeaky clean, even philosophically.

 

If you don't have a karmic connection to something, this will make itself very clear through mirroring this truth to you in some way. The people there don't open their arms to you but great other people without knowing they're ignoring you, the teacher makes movements that bother you somehow and remind you of something creepy in your subconscious or forgotten past. It's really just you though.

 

 

I am tired of your always putting down Westerners as being somehow deluded, because your so called enlightened guru said so! According to you and your herd seeking mind, they are so above it all. This is the very reason I got away from Buddhism. I was tired of being patronized by men in skirts sitting on their thrones and being treated as if I were some heathen!

 

 

 

All your arguments are legalistic to a fault and have absolutely no wisdom whatsoever.

 

You espouse some universal truth. Forget about it! No one has a universal truth.

 

 

ralis

Edited May 16, 2010 by ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

Forget about it! No one has a universal truth.

 

 

ralis

 

The Universe does have Universal Truths.

 

Like I said, put me on ignore. You will suffer less through ignorance. At least until someone comes a long and pushes the same buttons. Because the buttons exist, they will keep getting pushed, one way or another.

 

You obviously don't have the capacity for Buddhism. Which is also why you don't understand many of my posts and see them very superficially. This is not my fault.

Edited May 16, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

I am tired of your always putting down Westerners as being somehow deluded.

 

 

ralis

 

I said the masses are deluded and this includes both East and West and yes, meditation Masters do exist from a higher space of being than you and I and they are worthy of being humbled to by you and I.

Edited May 16, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[C T]

I am tired of your always putting down Westerners as being somehow deluded, because your so called enlightened guru said so! According to you and your herd seeking mind, they are so above it all. This is the very reason I got away from Buddhism. I was tired of being patronized by men in skirts sitting on their thrones and being treated as if I were some heathen!

 

 

 

All your arguments are legalistic to a fault and have absolutely no wisdom whatsoever.

 

You espouse some universal truth. Forget about it! No one has a universal truth.

 

 

ralis

Judge, jury and executioner honed to perfection here in this post. Like Robocop patrolling all of Vaj's posts! Prime example of a rare type of western mentality. I know of at least one other member here who behaves in a similar fashion, only a tad more refined, on the surface perhaps. Oh well... intelligence comes in all shapes and grades of coarseness, i suppose.

[sifusufi]

Question?

What would L. Ron Hoover do?

rajneesh?

 

Run to the Hills!

 

 

OR

Take The Money and Run

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=jZwLsvO6YTw

 

I really thought about EXILE on Main Street!

Feel the Love!

[-O-]

...I got away from Buddhism. I was tired of being patronized by men in skirts sitting on their thrones and being treated as if I were some heathen!

 

That made me laugh. I like the honesty.

 

...Prime example of a rare type of western mentality...

 

Oh... oh well.

 

I was onced robbed - or attempted to be robbed of my passport by two traffic cops in Cambodia - they were pretty much judge, jury and prosecutioner... and not of any particularly rare western type of mentality.

 

(it all ended fine - I was pretty much 2 feet taller then both and was not willing to back down - and they weren't willing to shoot me - so we simply parted ways after a few minutes- in fact we even shook hands).

[Vajrahridaya]

 

(it all ended fine - I was pretty much 2 feet taller then both and was not willing to back down - and they weren't willing to shoot me - so we simply parted ways after a few minutes- in fact we even shook hands).

 

Very good! I find bullies respond better to fearlessness.

 

Also, no one is saying that ignorance is a Western invention. There are just certain archetypes that are prevalent in Western society and attachment to them causes limitations in perceiving Eastern born spiritual paths. Many Westerners expect traditions that are thousands of years old to change for their huge egos instantaneously. It's easier to just question oneself and loosen these archetypes a bit to even letting many of them go and evolve as these Eastern paths can and do bring enlightenment to anyone willing to be internally flexible. Meanwhile, the Eastern paths will automatically evolve over time to suit the new needs of the world as the enlightened teachers of these paths more and more include people born in the West.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

I know of at least one other member here who behaves in a similar fashion, only a tad more refined, on the surface perhaps. Oh well... intelligence comes in all shapes and grades of coarseness, i suppose.

 

Why, I believe that'd be me!! I would add that I only react to arrogance and condescension of that particular member, and putting him on 'ignore' doesn't work because he posts like a Buddhist Energizer Bunny, many more times than most people here. If you want to post your strong opinion here, you should be ready to be challenged. And if he wants to make his own sweeping generalizations on the "Truth As V Sees It", why can't we comment on it? Coarse intelligence? Guilty, then!

[Birch]

I'm tempted to bite but I won't

Vajra, when you talk about the Westerners and these archetypes, could you give some examples?

 

And slightly OT, how would a "mindstream" go about being one of these archetypes, sort of sounds like another value/judgment system to me (and I ought to enter a disclaimer here to indicate that a value/judgment system is not necessarily a bad thing) Or do they just "switch in" depending on something or other, like the student's egoic makeup for example?

 

And why would a guru, which is by certain (I think yours too but I couldn't grasp whether that was what you meant?) definitions a mindstream himself take it upon himself to allow veneration if he were realized?

 

I think it's a lot more to do with some of the cultural perspectives offered per earlier posts. I thought that it was insightful indeed.

 

As far as my own veneration abilities are concerned, why venerate someone else's ego? Unless you are venerating your own perspective of them as part of yourself. And that sounds nice and existential. But I still wouldn't go for it. There are lots of ways to skin a cat.

[ralis]

I'm tempted to bite but I won't

Vajra, when you talk about the Westerners and these archetypes, could you give some examples?

 

And slightly OT, how would a "mindstream" go about being one of these archetypes, sort of sounds like another value/judgment system to me (and I ought to enter a disclaimer here to indicate that a value/judgment system is not necessarily a bad thing) Or do they just "switch in" depending on something or other, like the student's egoic makeup for example?

 

And why would a guru, which is by certain (I think yours too but I couldn't grasp whether that was what you meant?) definitions a mindstream himself take it upon himself to allow veneration if he were realized?

 

I think it's a lot more to do with some of the cultural perspectives offered per earlier posts. I thought that it was insightful indeed.

 

As far as my own veneration abilities are concerned, why venerate someone else's ego? Unless you are venerating your own perspective of them as part of yourself. And that sounds nice and existential. But I still wouldn't go for it. There are lots of ways to skin a cat.

 

 

He doesn't understand how to cite examples. I have repeatedly asked for examples. Yes, you make an astute point in regards to a realized being not wanting veneration. Namkhai Norbu refuses any veneration. He prefers to shake hands.

 

ralis

[Cueball]

"Western mind is quite flawed in it's constant projection of flaws and lack of self investigation"

 

I don't agree with this. I'm personally flawed but certainly have a decent level of self-investigation to count on. I'd tend more to say that Western traditions of insight such as critical thinking and contemplation have fallen out of favour. Why?

 

I also don't believe in venerating anyone. Certainly I get impressed by people (as well as their abilities, talents, intelligence and heart) and any good teacher I have of anything deserves my respect. But that's all.

 

As far as I can understand so far, the guru relationship is a way to "help" tear down one's egoic construction so that one may see what it is made of. Many techniques are used by "gurus" to do this including:

 

- NLP /hypnosis

- humiliation to induce suffering

- physical deprivation

- forced intimacy

- ritual

- symbolic manipulation

 

Yet people reach stages of awakening and insight all the time without any recourse to guru, through simple living. In fact I'm tempted to suggest that recourse to guru is a sign of an ego that doesn't want to give it up. If it did, why would it take you there?

 

I have to say IME the 'tearing down' is really only one part of a very large story that plays out in all sorts of ways. I think it becomes easily misunderstood. There may be times and places where you find yourself in uncompromising situations, but your list reads like a compendium of horror stories!

 

No unconditional love on your list??

Edited May 17, 2010 by Cueball

[Vajrahridaya]

I'm tempted to bite but I won't

Vajra, when you talk about the Westerners and these archetypes, could you give some examples?

 

Strong ego clingings of empowered individuality, which can be both good and bad. It's one of the things that the Eastern mind set needs from the West, but the Western ego archetype as being strongly individual and independent needs to be balanced by the Eastern wisdom of interconnected egolessness.

 

 

And why would a guru, which is by certain (I think yours too but I couldn't grasp whether that was what you meant?) definitions a mindstream himself take it upon himself to allow veneration if he were realized?

 

Because it can benefit the student and open the student up to receive. Also if a student focuses on the Guru in a state of veneration, these good qualities that the student sees in the Guru will naturally saturate the mind of the student through continual contemplation of these qualities. If veneration is not necessary for the student, or the student is doing it wrong or getting caught up in dualistic notions, the Guru will let the student know, or make the student go sit alone for example, in a cave, or these days... "just go home and read this"... offering something that is necessary.

 

Veneration can actually be a key to enlightenment. Something the strong ego attachment of the Western mind set could learn a lot about. It's really just the ego that says... "I won't venerate him/her, they'll take advantage of me". It really comes from a deep sense of fear that masks itself in pride, or the idea that "I'm just being practical."

 

I think it's a lot more to do with some of the cultural perspectives offered per earlier posts. I thought that it was insightful indeed.

 

The thing is, is that the goal of most Western paths are just not the same as the Eastern paths. Joseph Campbell was very interesting and many times correct in my opinion. But he makes a lot of assumptions, pulling little bits out of context and mushing the meanings together by skipping the particulars of the real meanings of the excerpts he took from the different traditions. This does not mean there are no genuine Western lineages that still lead to the same enlightenment as Vajrayana or I've heard there is a secret Taoist lineage that leads to Jalus... I don't know? But that would mean that they would teach the same thing in essence, even if the method is slightly different, the truth of the universe would be understood. It's just that particular methods lead to particular fruits.

 

As far as my own veneration abilities are concerned, why venerate someone else's ego?

 

That's not what you are venerating, you are venerating the qualities of enlightenment that this person represents, basically the lack of ego. You understand that this person is a mirror for the highest realizations and is humble enough to talk with you about them and even share his/her energy with you and give you the tools of application necessary to make the same realizations of these universal truths the Guru lives as a mirror of.

 

Unless you are venerating your own perspective of them as part of yourself. And that sounds nice and existential.

 

Sure, in a sense, but you are also venerating the specific accomplishments of the Guru which you yourself hope to imbibe from them through their teachings and their mind pointing through energy.

 

But I still wouldn't go for it. There are lots of ways to skin a cat.

 

Holding onto limited perspectives of yourself and others and ideas of intrinsic ego separateness from others and the world in general will never be one of them.

Edited May 17, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

He doesn't understand how to cite examples. I have repeatedly asked for examples. Yes, you make an astute point in regards to a realized being not wanting veneration. Namkhai Norbu refuses any veneration. He prefers to shake hands.

 

ralis

 

This is actually not true. The main practice is Guru Yoga. As well... plenty offer him the traditional white scarf in veneration of him and the lineage. We all do inner veneration of the Guru and lineage in the practices he teaches, which for me is more of a state of mind of deep respect. Plenty of students do 3 full pranams to him before even going up to meet him. If the pranams are sincere he reflects like wise. If they are just external show, you can see he just looks at them like, "what are you doing?... There's no need for this."

[Birch]

"Holding onto limited perspectives of yourself and others and ideas of intrinsic ego separateness from others and the world in general will never be one of them.

 

Well, this is where your mindstream and mine may not meet (like anti-matter ) - except in my perspective (thanks for hanging there for a while BTW) and it has little to do with grasping IME. I suggest you are interpreting what I am suggesting with a different view.

[Vajrahridaya]

He doesn't understand how to cite examples.

 

ralis

 

I've cited endless examples of many things here. So, this also is not true.

[Vajrahridaya]

From Vajrahridaya - "Holding onto limited perspectives of yourself and others and ideas of intrinsic ego separateness from others and the world in general will never be one of them.

From Kate -

Well, this is where your mindstream and mine may not meet

 

I'm sure our mindstreams have met many times throughout endless re-births.

 

The fact of the matter is that if you wish for the non-dual understanding as an ongoing life experience, then the above quote from me holds universally true. You are not intrinsically separate from anyone or anything, so why hold onto it? Why not use any opportunity to free yourself from the delusion of this comfort zone?

Edited May 17, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Apech]

You obviously don't have the capacity for Buddhism. Which is also why you don't understand many of my posts and see them very superficially. This is not my fault.

 

What! You link capacity for Buddhism with your posts! A little arrogant don't you think?

 

Have you practiced mind-training at all?

 

"When others out of jealousy treat me badly

With abuse, slander, and so on,

I will learn to take on all loss,

And offer victory to them."

Edited May 17, 2010 by apepch7

[Vajrahridaya]

What! You link capacity for Buddhism with your posts! A little arrogant don't you think?

 

Have you practiced mind-training at all?

 

Yes, I'm talking to ralis who say's he doesn't like Buddhism, but he wishes to practice Dzogchen by Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche. He is quite confused about what Dzogchen teaches which in essence is no different from what the Buddha taught.

 

I'm talking to a particular person who has yet to show that he understands anything about Buddhism or Dzogchen but constantly wants to follow me around in a negative manor.

 

I don't mind being arrogant to certain people. I don't feel any lack of peace in it.

 

I get happy whenever I see a crack in his armor, in that good way.

Edited May 17, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

 

"When others out of jealousy treat me badly

With abuse, slander, and so on,

I will learn to take on all loss,

And offer victory to them."

 

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Yes, I'm talking to ralis who say's he doesn't like Buddhism, but he wishes to practice Dzogchen by Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche. He is quite confused about what Dzogchen teaches which in essence is no different from what the Buddha taught.

 

I'm talking to a particular person who has yet to show that he understands anything about Buddhism or Dzogchen but constantly wants to follow me around in a negative manor.

 

I don't mind being arrogant to certain people. I don't feel any lack of peace in it.

 

I get happy whenever I see a crack in his armor, in that good way.

 

Nice of you to admit your arrogance. (But you're not just "arrogant to certain people"). Why do so many people feel compelled to "follow you around"? It doesn't seem to occur to anyone else on this forum. Wait, it must be us, right?

Edited May 17, 2010 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[Vajrahridaya]

Nice of you to admit your arrogance. (But you're not just "arrogant to certain people"). Why do so many people feel compelled to "follow you around"? It doesn't seem to occur to anyone else on this forum. Wait, it must be us, right?

 

No, it's just two of you. Both of you seem to not contribute anything either... just bash. You seem to contribute a bit more than ralis though. I don't mind being arrogant towards both of you, though sometimes I take pleasure in being the opposite of you guys.

 

Both of you do wrongly take my assuredness of understanding as arrogance. Why should I lie about what I feel is true? You don't try to lie about what you feel is true... you two follow me around and make sarcastic comments quite often. Both of you reveal quite immensely your lack of inner experience and contemplation at every turn.