Stripping The Gurus

[Vajrahridaya]

If you are not enlightened then you are not qualified to make the statement that traditions evolve if at the healm there is an enlightened master.

 

I've had enough glimpses to get a good experiential idea though.

You are free to doubt me though of course.

We have heard these types of statements for thousands of years and have been let down badly, lead down bad roads, killed, raped, been forced to kill, been convinced to kill for thousands of years as well.

 

This is merely karma though, that doesn't mean there aren't good paths out there, as well... a person with a deeply flawed vision will not see how good a path is because it comes against certain conscious and sub-conscious pre-conceptions.

This is not truth - this is people at the healm , at the very least, not wanting to be bothered with critical questions - then a mythology is built to keep people from "bothering master"; and at the very worst they want total power over you and your resources.

 

It seems that you have been hurt, or you merely focus on those that have been hurt. At the same time... plenty of beings have been liberated through Buddhism and still are getting liberated. It's a karmic thing and you create your karma. So, it's really just up to you how you are going to see and interpret things.

 

Look at St. Francis of Assisi. He came up and was born into a pretty derelict but powerful totalitarian religion, Catholicism. But, his vision was so pure that he attained great heights of spiritual beauty despite the horrors and atrocities that his religion was doing around him. He merely focused on Jesus and the message of Jesus and made that his entire mind and benefited incredibly!! Thus he ended up benefiting tons of people simply through his pure vision.

 

It seems that your perception is focused too much on corruption, the negative spectrum of infinite possibilities. This is merely your karmic vision hampering insight. It's not that you are wrong, but this is not the whole picture. There are other rights to see that will benefit you much more.

Edited May 17, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

I've had enough glimpses to get a good experiential idea though.

You are free to doubt me though of course.

 

 

 

 

Look at St. Francis of Assisi. He came up and was born into a pretty derelict but powerful totalitarian religion, Catholicism. But, his vision was so pure that he attained great heights of spiritual beauty despite the horrors and atrocities that his religion was doing around him. He merely focused on Jesus and the message of Jesus and made that his entire mind and benefited incredibly!! Thus he ended up benefiting tons of people simply through his pure vision.

 

 

 

Wait, so basically Catholicism is not a vehicle for spiritual attainment, except for St Francis? Again, your narrow narcissistic views. Buddhism always trumps everything else, right? Man, you are a trip, dude!!

[Vajrahridaya]

Wait, so basically Catholicism is not a vehicle for spiritual attainment, except for St Francis? Buddhism always trumps everything else, right?

 

 

There are plenty of spiritual paths that lead to good outcomes, high rebirths in possibility. But yes, Buddhism is very clear as to what is liberation from Samsara and Christianity is not. St. Francis didn't have the same goal as Buddhist realizers. Also, I can name endless great beings from Christianity that I fully respect and love, but I don't take refuge in them and I don't consider their teachings to be as clear as Buddhist teachings or leading to the exact same result.

 

But, they are great beings and worthy of veneration. St. Francis is but one that I shed tears of love and wonder for. I've read the autobiographies of many great Christian Saints who have inspired my path.

 

As the Buddha said, most paths at best exemplify the 4 immeasurables, or Brahmaviharas which lead to rebirth in a blissful God realm of one sort or another, where they will eventually fall from or rise from, depends upon the individual, but these paths don't lead directly to liberation from Samsara or unconscious rebirth and were considered incomplete by the Buddha.

[Vajrahridaya]

Again, my narrow narcissistic views. Man, I'm a trip, dude!!

 

Quote above changed to more succinctly be reflective of his reality.

Edited May 18, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Ooh, sarcastic again? By the way, when I changed your post,I said so and made the changes in bold.You sure you want to set this precedent? Kinda dangerous to manufacture fake quotes... works both ways, ya know...

Edited May 18, 2010 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[Vajrahridaya]

Ooh, sarcastic again? By the way, when I changed your post,I said so and made the changes in bold.You sure you want to set this precedent?

 

You've already set a lot of precedents having something to do with projecting your own state of mind all over the place and blaming others for the way you feel.

 

But yes... I'll change the post.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

You've already set a lot of precedents having something to do with projecting your own state of mind all over the place and blaming others for the way you feel.

 

But yes... I'll change the post.

 

Others? I only react this way with you. And yes, my buttons get pushed by your posts. I probably wouldn't mind you in person.

Edited May 18, 2010 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[-O-]

It seems that you have been hurt, or you merely focus on those that have been hurt.

 

 

Disqualifing my statements as "oh he must be hurt" is a form of ad hominem. I'm pointing theses things out because it is the topic at hand. Perhaps ,in an earlier post, my use of the word "me" instead of one, we or someone may have lead you to a different conclusion. It is a false assumption you are makeing. I have teachers I love and respect dearly, others I love and respect which I (and they do to) know have they're flaws, and other which I don't have much respect for, for good reason... such as life.

Edited May 18, 2010 by -O-

[-O-]

I can understand where most of your points are coming from. You have articulated well - many thanks for that.

 

I just want to add that i too, have had the affinity to meet many teachers in the few years i have tried to broaden my spiritual understanding, and thus far have not met one who was arrogant enough to proclaim that somehow they are in possession of a kind of secret higher knowledge and ought to be kowtowed to based on that. This is just my personal experience, which in no way is a suggestion that i am so naive as to say that there are no scoundrels out there. Of course there are, within all traditions. Even the real masters themselves acknowledge this.

 

The ideas of subservience to a physical person (as in gurus) when one embarks on the spiritual path are all based on false understanding, and more often than not, completely blown out of context. No true masters expect such subservience, yet they are the ones who are often paid the highest homage. We need to investigate why this is so, and to do this, we cannot simply lump all the apples into one basket, and proclaim there, these guys are all the same - this is not investigation, more like accusations. Individual gurus have individual merits. Should we feel the need to venerate, perhaps more than the person, is the veneration of merits, those that we ourselves aspire to realize. Ultimately, whatever humility is offered up, with hearts and minds opened, can only do more good than harm.

 

Thanks for this. Let me qualfy two things. My posts aren't exclusive to Buddhism or any other set system. And they are not geared at the individuals but rather what happens to all things when they instituitionalize. so it is really the how the organizations develope which lead to the possiblity of abuse by some. I think the last hundred years or so is the first time in human history where the shortcomings of this type of organizational development won't hold water or at least won't for long. I think will will start to see how teaching are presented in the west will be altered and adapted without it being a watered down "they can't handle it" way, but rather a real effort to improve.

[ralis]

There are plenty of spiritual paths that lead to good outcomes, high rebirths in possibility. But yes, Buddhism is very clear as to what is liberation from Samsara and Christianity is not. St. Francis didn't have the same goal as Buddhist realizers. Also, I can name endless great beings from Christianity that I fully respect and love, but I don't take refuge in them and I don't consider their teachings to be as clear as Buddhist teachings or leading to the exact same result.

 

But, they are great beings and worthy of veneration. St. Francis is but one that I shed tears of love and wonder for. I've read the autobiographies of many great Christian Saints who have inspired my path.

 

As the Buddha said, most paths at best exemplify the 4 immeasurables, or Brahmaviharas which lead to rebirth in a blissful God realm of one sort or another, where they will eventually fall from or rise from, depends upon the individual, but these paths don't lead directly to liberation from Samsara or unconscious rebirth and were considered incomplete by the Buddha.

 

Just because the Buddha said so, does not make it true! Have you talked to the Buddha lately? Does he approve of your preaching?

 

 

ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

Disqualifing my statements as "oh he must be hurt" is a form of ad hominem.

 

That was not my intention to insult you. But to just assume that your jaded view comes from one or the other, or both. I said you must have been hurt, or you focus on those that have been. So, you are mis-quoting me.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm pointing theses things out because it is the topic at hand. Perhaps ,in an earlier post, my use of the word "me" instead of one, we or someone may have lead you to a different conclusion. It is a false assumption you are makeing. I have teachers I love and respect dearly, others I love and respect which I (and they do to) know have they're flaws, and other which I don't have much respect for, for good reason... such as life.

 

Ok, fair enough.

[Vajrahridaya]

Just because the Buddha said so, does not make it true! Have you talked to the Buddha lately? Does he approve of your preaching?

 

 

ralis

 

Based on direct experience of his teachings, I feel that it is true. You are free to disagree, but that doesn't mean you are right either.

 

The Buddha preached and argued for 40 years. I don't know if he approves? All I know is that talking about Buddhism feels right!

[Vajrahridaya]

Others? I only react this way with you. And yes, my buttons get pushed by your posts. I probably wouldn't mind you in person.

 

You should probably pay more attention to your buttons which are more the cause of your suffering than me.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

You should probably pay more attention to your buttons which are more the cause of your suffering than me.

 

Well, first of all, I'm not suffering. And it is you.

[-O-]

That was not my intention to insult you.

But to just assume that your jaded view comes from one or the other, or both. I said you must have been hurt, or you focus on those that have been. So, you are mis-quoting me.

 

 

 

 

 

Ok, fair enough.

 

 

You're assuming I am insulted. None of this is personal by the way.

[nac]

LOL! Really?

Yep, unless you count Lobsang Rampa.

[ralis]

Based on direct experience of his teachings, I feel that it is true. You are free to disagree, but that doesn't mean you are right either.

 

The Buddha preached and argued for 40 years. I don't know if he approves? All I know is that talking about Buddhism feels right!

 

Do you preach Buddhism on the beaches? On the street corner? Pass out Buddhist literature like the ISKON people?

 

 

ralis

[C T]

Thanks for this. Let me qualfy two things. My posts aren't exclusive to Buddhism or any other set system. And they are not geared at the individuals but rather what happens to all things when they instituitionalize. so it is really the how the organizations develope which lead to the possiblity of abuse by some. I think the last hundred years or so is the first time in human history where the shortcomings of this type of organizational development won't hold water or at least won't for long. I think will will start to see how teaching are presented in the west will be altered and adapted without it being a watered down "they can't handle it" way, but rather a real effort to improve.

More than this, i do recall in one of your earlier posts you stressed the need to strip the gurus (i assumed you meant individuals) so i responded in that vein. However, i fully agree with your thoughts here on the institutions. In the last 10 years i have seen many supposedly traditional spiritual lineages being corporatized, with the latest management systems put in place to be run like fortune500 companies. Not saying this is bad. Just a sign of the times i suppose. As more and more influential Western patrons become benefactors, perhaps these systems become one type of means of accountability to safeguard 'investments'. The downside, i suppose, is that some individuals who have distorted expectations of these traditional schools will decry this 21st century spiritual makeover - mistaking progress in organization for spiritual corruption.

[-O-]

More than this, i do recall in one of your earlier posts you stressed the need to strip the gurus (i assumed you meant individuals) so i responded in that vein.

 

 

 

 

It is always tough to separate the role from the individual. Allot of what I say here is also from my own experience in teaching – that being very small scale – not a large organization etc. So these dynamics emerge right way – not after they become huge religions. At some point, when a group moves from a few to an actual group, there is a need to "organize" the teaching, but also to stream line the message. At that point I believe the seeds for all of this stuff is planted.

 

 

 

The downside, i suppose, is that some individuals who have distorted expectations of these traditional schools will decry this 21st century spiritual makeover - mistaking progress in organization for spiritual corruption.

 

 

 

 

Good Point!

Edited May 18, 2010 by -O-

[Cueball]

Jungian analyst Connie Zweig has done a lot of work in the area of guru/teacher as mana personality (in Jung-speak).

 

In The Holy Longing she goes into various representations of the guru from a point of view of the archetypes, and especially those aspects that a student becomes attracted to. I thought it might be of some interest to this thread. They're not meant to be hard and fast categories but I think it's a very useful insight. I highly recommend the book for anyone interested, or wrestling with these sorts of issues in a real way.

 

 

Longing for certainty

 

- Drawn to the teacher as wise old man/woman. Offers the certainty of knowledge and wisdom of authority. Student/disciple desires to end anxiety of living with the unknown.

 

Longing for salvation

 

- Drawn to the teacher as savior, prophet or messiah. Offers exclusive message to believers, focussed on worlds beyond. Student/disciple has a desire for purifying sins, cleansing karma.

 

Longing for unconditional love

 

- Drawn to the teacher as divine mother; offers embrace of spiritual children in silent acceptance and healing the heart.

 

Longing for faith

 

- Drawn to the teacher as shaman or magician. Offers demonstrable siddhis. Student/disciple hopes to escape human limitations.

 

Long to break free of rationality/conventionality

 

- Drawn to the teacher as trickster; shows limits of rational mind and points to non-dual awareness; reconciliation of opposites

[lifeforce]

Do you preach Buddhism on the beaches? On the street corner? Pass out Buddhist literature like the ISKON people?

 

 

ralis

 

Yep, it is starting to sound like an evangelical, preaching buddhism. It won't work here though.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Yep, it is starting to sound like an evangelical, preaching buddhism. It won't work here though.

 

 

Oh, it worked last year for 2,000 plus posts, dat dude swats away any and all who challenge his preaching.

 

Don't you remember all this kind of stuff??: 'Should a Taoist Forum focus primarily on Taoism? Can the Buddhist banter be streamlined?' It went on and on and on...and lots and lots of evangelical Buddhism sprawled over many threads from the member who remained resolute in Buddhist Agenda, preaching the superiority of Buddhism to all other ways and continued posting the Buddha's Gospel.

 

And it did work here, because this member seemed to be on a crusade... but was oblivious to that charge...until his new wife probably made him take a break 6 months ago when he got married...

[dragonfire45]

Oh, it worked last year for 2,000 plus posts, dat dude swats away any and all who challenge his preaching.

 

 

Lol, does seem to have followers here, who jump up and down if his teachings are questioned. Buddhism is Quantum mechanics, theory of relativity, science of conventional mind, road to omniscience (yeah yeah for Mahayana), only wrote to the final step of enlightenment (yeah yeah others have a static GOD consciousness which will cause rebirth) and Hindus are pseudo-intellectual morons. What is there to challenge here? Seems pretty direct and nac, CowTao, Mikaelz have concluded this. If you disagree, you have to quit your job and respond to 300 posts as they will keep posting the same rebuttals over and over again.

 

One choice, we can forget them and get a life (yeah yeah that is full of suffering lol). Seems not that bad after all. We haven't taken Bodhisattva vows like them.

Edited May 19, 2010 by dragonfire45

[Vajrahridaya]

Do you preach Buddhism on the beaches? On the street corner? Pass out Buddhist literature like the ISKON people?

 

 

ralis

This is about the limitation of my preaching. I actually don't frequent any other boards right now. Also, no to all other questions.

[C T]

What is there to challenge here? Seems pretty direct and nac, CowTao, Mikaelz have concluded this.

Hey Presto! You missed out on the veneration of Xabir? How could you, for all your keen observational skills?