Primorial Qigong - Michael Winn

[Art]

[markern]

I have the opportunity to attend a Primordial Qigong weekend course with Michael Winn in November. Although this is currently a bit advanced for me, I am hoping to "build" up by then to be able to maximize my results. I am hoping to have at least 90 days of practice prior to attending, which will require some preparation. I plan to purchase the DVD "Tai Chi for Enlightenment - Primordial Qigong" ( http://www.taichi-enlightenment.com/ ) in a few weeks to spread the cost. I am not sure if I will purchase the 4 CD set or the "Super Package", 8 CDs total....

 

If anyone have experience with this system and/or DVD they'd like to share, I'd greatly appreciate it.

 

Thanks!

 

Art

 

I have done a bit of it and found it very, very good and powerfull. I`d say attend. I think Winn now incorporates the inner smile into it somehow so practicing some inner smile might be a good idea.

Edited March 1, 2010 by markern

[三江源]

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Edited March 24, 2015 by 三江源

[freeform]

Yup - it's great.

 

I thought Michael gives the DVD out for free when you book the workshop.

[RyanO]

Hi Art, I took the workshop last year and posted this thread about it:

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/11946-primordial-qigong

 

It was a great time and I had some very powerful experiences. It can get pretty advanced, but it is also good for beginners because it lays a good foundation.

 

I agree with markern, practicing and developing some skill with the Inner Smile will definitely enhance your experience.

 

As you can tell from my link, I didn't have any experience with the form before going to the workshop and learned it just fine. I don't have the audio courses, so I can't comment on those. I do know that the super package contains mostly Feldenkrais stuff, and an extra $80 for that seems kinda steep. It's my understanding that he will give you half off the audio course but only if you buy them at the workshop.

 

Hope this helps!

 

-Ryan

[altiora]

I have the opportunity to attend a Primordial Qigong weekend course with Michael Winn in November. Although this is currently a bit advanced for me, I am hoping to "build" up by then to be able to maximize my results. I am hoping to have at least 90 days of practice prior to attending, which will require some preparation. I plan to purchase the DVD "Tai Chi for Enlightenment - Primordial Qigong" ( http://www.taichi-enlightenment.com/ ) in a few weeks to spread the cost. I am not sure if I will purchase the 4 CD set or the "Super Package", 8 CDs total....

 

If anyone have experience with this system and/or DVD they'd like to share, I'd greatly appreciate it.

 

Thanks!

 

Art

 

 

With all due to respect to Michael Winn, I thought the CD audio course was a waste of money. It has very poor audio (it is recorded in mono, which becomes a problem after the first hour), and I was less than impressed with the quality of the information.

 

Donald and Cheryl Rubbo have produced a book on the form -- and run courses -- which in my opinion is far better than Michael Winn's. This is because the Rubbos discuss the internal, mental aspects of the form and their's is closer to the original form. Donald Rubbo and Michael Winn were taught by the same root teacher, but it seems that Winn made some changes.

[VCraigP]

With all due to respect to Michael Winn, I thought the CD audio course was a waste of money.

 

Get the DVD. It's good enough to learn the form. then "just do it".

 

It's my recollection that Winn provides more context tying the form together with HT style alchemy meditations in the CD course. Even without that background just doing the form will have an effect IMO.

 

Craig

[EagleShen]

It's a great practice, i can particularly recommend doing it after a session of standing meditation.

 

The DVD gives pretty clear instruction, the quality is OK but not great. The quality of the Audio CD's are, as suggested, woeful, not only is it in mono but no one who has even a vague idea about audio production has been near it, the volume varies from very quiet to ear drum splitting loud during some of the exercises. It does have some valuable info in it, but is a trial to get through.

 

Good to hear positive things about the training, i'd contemplated coming to the US to do the training but after the audio experience i was a little jaded.

 

The Rubbo ebook is outstanding, there are some differences in the form, but it has some really good info in it. If i lived in the US i'd do their course.

[三江源]

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Edited March 24, 2015 by 三江源

[EagleShen]

Hi EagleShen, what kind of info?! I'm asking you to elaborate a bit, as I love the form!

 

I agree that Michaels productions are amateur and it is actually an impediment to one using them, really. Which is a shame.

 

Hi Cat, about a quarter of the book goes into the history and esoteric background, including some info on Mater Zhu Hui who taught it to both Michael and the Robbos, and also relates the form to the Ba Gua (8 trigrams) and five element theory. There is also some interesting stuff on intention, and the forms effect on the pituitary and pineal glands. I pity anyone actually trying to learn the form from the book though!

[altiora]

Hi EagleShen, what kind of info?! I'm asking you to elaborate a bit, as I love the form!

 

I agree that Michaels productions are amateur and it is actually an impediment to one using them, really. Which is a shame.

 

 

The best DVD on the form is by Master Cheng Bingsong:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Wu-Ji-Gong/dp/B00134N2MA/ref=pd_vodsm_B00134N2MA

 

I've bought that, along with the Rubbo book. Together they outstrip Michael Winn's version by a country mimile. Not only in production value, but Winn's demonstration is wooden and clumsy. It should be much more flowing and graceful. And contrary to what Winn and others may say, all alchemical forms get their power from combining movement with the correct mental actions. If you don't have the internal side, then you are just waving your arms about.

 

What surprised me about the Rubbo book is actually how preciose the movements needed to ideally be. Something that both Winn and Chen Bingsong don't explain.

 

The other reason I quickly discarded Winn's version is that it is full of Healing Tao "innovations", and also his efforts at promoting the form seem flagrantly aimed at the new age dopes: he calls it "Tai Chi for Enlightenment"; refers to Taoist immortals visiting you when you do it (sorry, think they have better things to do) and all this waffle about cosmic orgasms.

 

Call me dull, but I prefer technical down to earth discussion.

Edited March 3, 2010 by altiora

[RyanO]

The best DVD on the form is by Master Cheng Bingsong:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Wu-Ji-Gong/dp/B00134N2MA/ref=pd_vodsm_B00134N2MA

 

I've bought that, along with the Rubbo book. Together they outstrip Michael Winn's version by a country mimile. Not only in production value, but Winn's demonstration is wooden and clumsy. It should be much more flowing and graceful. And contrary to what Winn and others may say, all alchemical forms get their power from combining movement with the correct mental actions. If you don't have the internal side, then you are just waving your arms about.

 

The other reason I quickly discarded Winn's version is that it is full of Healing Tao "innovations", and also his efforts at promoting the form seem flagrantly aimed at the new age dopes: he calls it "Tai Chi for Enlightenment"; refers to Taoist immortals visiting you when you do it (sorry, think they have better things to do) and all this waffle about cosmic orgasms.

 

Call me dull, but I prefer technical down to earth discussion.

 

Michael Winn's courses, it is true, lack production quality. He does use marketing tactics to sell more videos and he interprets things from his HT context. His teachings do have their shortcomings. He also has some pretty wacky ideas like about the Immortals, but is light-hearted about these things and doesn't emphasize them.

 

What his teaching does have is Heart. Your point about him not teaching the internal side is incorrect. I'm not sure about the audio--I don't have it. But he went in depth about the internal aspects at his workshop.

 

The most important aspect of the alchemical process is something that he does emphasize: the Inner Smile. It is the foundation of his teachings. This one practice alone can fuel the entire process.

 

I have Rubbo's ebook and recommend it as well for the theory. I will also look into that video link you mentioned. But you're treating Winn unfairly here.

[altiora]

Michael Winn's courses, it is true, lack production quality. He does use marketing tactics to sell more videos and he interprets things from his HT context. His teachings do have their shortcomings. He also has some pretty wacky ideas like about the Immortals, but is light-hearted about these things and doesn't emphasize them.

 

What his teaching does have is Heart. Your point about him not teaching the internal side is incorrect. I'm not sure about the audio--I don't have it. But he went in depth about the internal aspects at his workshop.

 

The most important aspect of the alchemical process is something that he does emphasize: the Inner Smile. It is the foundation of his teachings. This one practice alone can fuel the entire process.

 

I have Rubbo's ebook and recommend it as well for the theory. I will also look into that video link you mentioned. But you're treating Winn unfairly here.

 

Without being argumentative, but that is my opinion based on having reviwed and worked with all available materials on the form; and therefore I think I'm more qualified to make a comparative judgment more than those who have not looked at all the same materials.

 

 

 

Again, the Inner Smile is a Mantak Chia thing, not that of the lineage teacher of the form.

Edited March 3, 2010 by altiora

[RyanO]

Without being argumentative, but that is my opinion based on having reviwed and worked with all available materials on the form; and therefore I think I'm more qualified to make a comparative judgment more than those who have not looked at all the same materials.

 

 

 

Again, the Inner Smile is a Mantak Chia thing, not that of the lineage teacher of the form.

 

Well like I said I read Rubbo's book so I can at least make that comparison.

 

I respect your opinion and I guess we'll just have to differ. Personally, I feel that the Inner Smile is not a technique limited to one lineage. Perhaps just calling it the 'Inner Smile' is.

 

It is basically a non-dual embrace of the perfection of things. Having an Inner Smile blossoms naturally from having an Empty Mind, which is a fairly universal concept.

[EagleShen]

The best DVD on the form is by Master Cheng Bingsong:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Wu-Ji-Gong/dp/B00134N2MA/ref=pd_vodsm_B00134N2MA

 

Hey thanks for the info, I reckon i'll purchase the video when cash flow allows, i'd love to see another perspective on this form. Took me a while to find it as i'm outside the USA (your link is to some Amazon TV thing only available in the US), here's the link for anyone outside the US wishing to buy: Wu Ji Gong

 

Re the precision, I've only learnt it from Michael's videos, and my experience has been quite profound at times (no immortals though), so i'm now going to revise and see if some added precision ramps it up!

[三江源]

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Edited March 24, 2015 by 三江源

[Jonah]

I've been practicing the form for over 12 years now after learning the form directly from Michael Winn in the late 90s. He learned it directly from Master Zhu Hui as did Donald Rubbo and Cheng Bingsong whose materials I also own and study.

 

Out of the three I would say Cheng Bingsong's structural elements are the best. He moves with a grace that neither of them can compare with. Bingsong's pace is also dramatically quicker than Winn's and Rubbo's and I would encourage practitioners to vary their speed according to taste and mood. Solala Towler of The Empty Vessel told me that Bingsong practices the form the way it's done in China, much faster than the near slow-motion pace we are taught in the States.

 

Unfortunately Bingsong offers his viewers nearly zip on anything internally. Yeah, there's the standard focus on your dan tien that you find everywhere, but the internal alchemy of the form that is accessed by intention simply isn't provided.

 

So you need to look at Rubbo's and Winn's forms for the internals. I believe you can find interesting and powerful internals for the form from both Rubbo and Winn. Winn's form feels much more accessible to beginners than Rubbo's and after reading Rubbo's book several times I have to say that it would be quite difficult for anyone to learn it from a book. He has some videos up on youtube but they are only snippets of the form. Winn's video materials can be barebones production-wise but generally you can learn from them. Rubbo is working on a video as we speak and I believe that will make it much easier to learn his form. Likewise Winn is working on a book now so we can hear from him more on his internal practice in the form.

 

Bottom line, you are always better off learning directly in a class setting rather than books and videos, but I understand that this not always possible.

 

I currently practice the form using Bingsong's externals (Rubbo's form has added foot movements that I believe detract from the flow) and a combination of Rubbo's and Winn's internals. Each teacher, no matter what the subject, makes subtle variations on their subject matter. When it comes to Primordial Qigong you can learn valuable insights from all three teachers.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Jonah

[thelerner]

Jonah, thank you, for the great post. That's exactly the kind of knowledgeable insight I was looking for.

 

 

Michael

[billb]

I've been practicing the form for over 12 years now after learning the form directly from Michael Winn in the late 90s. He learned it directly from Master Zhu Hui as did Donald Rubbo and Cheng Bingsong whose materials I also own and study.

 

Out of the three I would say Cheng Bingsong's structural elements are the best. He moves with a grace that neither of them can compare with. Bingsong's pace is also dramatically quicker than Winn's and Rubbo's and I would encourage practitioners to vary their speed according to taste and mood. Solala Towler of The Empty Vessel told me that Bingsong practices the form the way it's done in China, much faster than the near slow-motion pace we are taught in the States.

 

Unfortunately Bingsong offers his viewers nearly zip on anything internally. Yeah, there's the standard focus on your dan tien that you find everywhere, but the internal alchemy of the form that is accessed by intention simply isn't provided.

 

So you need to look at Rubbo's and Winn's forms for the internals. I believe you can find interesting and powerful internals for the form from both Rubbo and Winn. Winn's form feels much more accessible to beginners than Rubbo's and after reading Rubbo's book several times I have to say that it would be quite difficult for anyone to learn it from a book. He has some videos up on youtube but they are only snippets of the form. Winn's video materials can be barebones production-wise but generally you can learn from them. Rubbo is working on a video as we speak and I believe that will make it much easier to learn his form. Likewise Winn is working on a book now so we can hear from him more on his internal practice in the form.

 

Bottom line, you are always better off learning directly in a class setting rather than books and videos, but I understand that this not always possible.

 

I currently practice the form using Bingsong's externals (Rubbo's form has added foot movements that I believe detract from the flow) and a combination of Rubbo's and Winn's internals. Each teacher, no matter what the subject, makes subtle variations on their subject matter. When it comes to Primordial Qigong you can learn valuable insights from all three teachers.

Hi Jonah just curious does this mean you complete the practice more quickly or do you practice the form at a faster pace for the same amount of time?

[Aetherous]

That is interesting. Doing it faster does seem right...less boring.

[RyanO]

Hi Jonah just curious does this mean you complete the practice more quickly or do you practice the form at a faster pace for the same amount of time?

 

If the practice is done faster then it would be completed in a shorter period of time, since it is a specific set of moves.

 

I have the Cheng Bingsong video and noticed this as well. Now I understand how they are able to practice multiple times a day!

[三江源]

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Edited March 24, 2015 by 三江源

[Jonah]

Hi Jonah just curious does this mean you complete the practice more quickly or do you practice the form at a faster pace for the same amount of time?

 

Master Zhu recommended that for optimum results the form should be practiced at least four times a day, with each set taking between eight to twelve minutes to perform. I can honestly say that I don't often get to four, most often it's just two or three sets.

 

Speed wise it really depends on my mood. If I'm really focusing on the internal energies - feeling the colors and emotions of the directions, bringing in complimentary energies from male/female, sun/moon, and the stars - then I tend to slow down the form. If I'm looking for a more simple energy boost then I just let it flow without much thinking, and that speeds it up.

 

Ultimately there's really no one right speed to do, the form is for you, not the other way around. If you are bored and need energy, speed it up. If you want to get more into the feeling and alchemical side, slow it down. Mix it up, do the speed that you feel fits best for you in that moment, and you'll be getting exactly what you need from the form.

[MBZ]

Master Zhu recommended that for optimum results the form should be practiced at least four times a day, with each set taking between eight to twelve minutes to perform. I can honestly say that I don't often get to four, most often it's just two or three sets.

 

Speed wise it really depends on my mood. If I'm really focusing on the internal energies - feeling the colors and emotions of the directions, bringing in complimentary energies from male/female, sun/moon, and the stars - then I tend to slow down the form. If I'm looking for a more simple energy boost then I just let it flow without much thinking, and that speeds it up.

 

Ultimately there's really no one right speed to do, the form is for you, not the other way around. If you are bored and need energy, speed it up. If you want to get more into the feeling and alchemical side, slow it down. Mix it up, do the speed that you feel fits best for you in that moment, and you'll be getting exactly what you need from the form.

Hey bro on a side note, your icon is money!

 

BLESSINGS!!!

[EagleShen]

Thanks Jonah, great write up! And no probs Cat.