Buddha and a God

[3bob]

[lifeforce]

I used to like Buddhism until VERY recently. As I looked deeper into it, I realized it is just like any other organized religion, based on fear.

Fear of what will happen to us IN THE NEXT LIFE if we don't do such and such or repeat this mantra in a foreign tongue.

Hell realms, hungry ghost realms etc etc. Eons trapped in horrible existences. What if these realms don't exist.

What a waste it would be to deny ourselves living fully IN THIS LIFE.

This is not to mean living recklessly without concern for the planet and it's inhabitants. We can still lead morally good and compassionate lives without adhering to precepts, commandments and blind guru worship.

Most of us know what is the correct way to conduct ourselves and of the consequences when we don't.

We reap what we sow.

[trailmaker]

Eloquent sequence...internal dialogue...the buddha...lao tze...Mahayana Refined...Carl Yung...Alan Watts,

Wilhelm, et al...western mind...eastern thought...

[MBZ]

I used to like Buddhism until VERY recently. As I looked deeper into it, I realized it is just like any other organized religion, based on fear.

Fear of what will happen to us IN THE NEXT LIFE if we don't do such and such or repeat this mantra in a foreign tongue.

Hell realms, hungry ghost realms etc etc. Eons trapped in horrible existences. What if these realms don't exist.

What a waste it would be to deny ourselves living fully IN THIS LIFE.

This is not to mean living recklessly without concern for the planet and it's inhabitants. We can still lead morally good and compassionate lives without adhering to precepts, commandments and blind guru worship.

Most of us know what is the correct way to conduct ourselves and of the consequences when we don't.

We reap what we sow.

I couldn't agree more, for myself, although I love that we are all free to choose and that there are many paths. That's why the Abraham-Hicks stuff speaks so true for me.

 

BLESSINGS!!!

[3bob]

I used to like Buddhism until VERY recently. As I looked deeper into it, I realized it is just like any other organized religion, based on fear.

Fear of what will happen to us IN THE NEXT LIFE if we don't do such and such or repeat this mantra in a foreign tongue.

Hell realms, hungry ghost realms etc etc. Eons trapped in horrible existences. What if these realms don't exist.

What a waste it would be to deny ourselves living fully IN THIS LIFE.

This is not to mean living recklessly without concern for the planet and it's inhabitants. We can still lead morally good and compassionate lives without adhering to precepts, commandments and blind guru worship.

Most of us know what is the correct way to conduct ourselves and of the consequences when we don't.

We reap what we sow.

 

...there's a point do any truly awake Buddhist teachers/masters/gurus advocate not living fully in this life? (me thinks not)

 

thanks for your reply

[ralis]

I used to like Buddhism until VERY recently. As I looked deeper into it, I realized it is just like any other organized religion, based on fear.

Fear of what will happen to us IN THE NEXT LIFE if we don't do such and such or repeat this mantra in a foreign tongue.

Hell realms, hungry ghost realms etc etc. Eons trapped in horrible existences. What if these realms don't exist.

What a waste it would be to deny ourselves living fully IN THIS LIFE.

This is not to mean living recklessly without concern for the planet and it's inhabitants. We can still lead morally good and compassionate lives without adhering to precepts, commandments and blind guru worship.

Most of us know what is the correct way to conduct ourselves and of the consequences when we don't.

We reap what we sow.

 

 

It amazes me that for someone that never wrote anything and his sayings were written down hundreds of years later, he is taken so seriously!

 

Yes, you are correct about the fear based aspect. I guess that what human primates respond and are conditioned to!

 

I wonder how long it will take the Buddhist apologists to show up on this thread! LOL!!

 

ralis

[ralis]

All this business around Buddhist impermanence skips the fundamental fact that energy is neither created or destroyed. Energy only changes form. A very Taoist tenent.

 

ralis

[de_paradise]

...there's a point do any truly awake Buddhist teachers/masters/gurus advocate not living fully in this life? (me thinks not)

 

thanks for your reply

 

Preparing for the time your current body will cease to function (death) is by no means not living fully in this life. I get this line very very often in criticism to my suggestion to people that they should meditate more because life is short and in the big picture (eternity) its not much of a sacrifice. You'd think these people spend all their time doing peak experiences like hand-gliding over the Andes, thats the picture that they want to give--but its not true.

[innerspace_cadet]

I used to frequent the e-sangha forums before it crashed. They would always advise me to put my doubts about rebirth "aside" and just practice. But it always remained the elephant in the room, and there is simply no point in practicing Buddhism unless you are willing to at least entertain the notion that you will come back as something else in a future life, and your intentional actions have something to do with it. This is because Buddhism is intended to help people break this cycle.

 

The whole scheme implies that life is something to be transcended, which really ends up devaluing life. And the idea that someone was born into poverty because of past life actions is really just a result of the all too human tendency to superimpose a pattern on reality where there is none.

 

It might be nice to think that Hitler was reborn in the hell realms for what he did, but I suspect there really is no cosmic justice whatsoever.

 

You don't need to be a Buddhist to attain some inner serenity, which is what all these Buddhist "seekers" are after anyway.

[Gerard]

I am at work now so can't reply to your poorly replied arguments right now.

 

I will tonight though.

[Lucky7Strikes]

All this business around Buddhist impermanence skips the fundamental fact that energy is neither created or destroyed. Energy only changes form. A very Taoist tenent.

 

ralis

 

Meh.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Lucky7Strikes

[Gerard]

I thought about what I said and honestly am not willing to spend a lot of energy arguing about Buddhism and what the OP stated in that beautiful Sutra/Sutta. This is the key part of the whole text:

 

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.

 

Some may need one lifetime (as a result of many lifetimes of suffering and experiencing) others need 2000.

 

Best way of understanding Buddhism (if you are ready) is by attending a 3 weeks Vipassana course and retreat in Asia. I have seen seasoned meditators walking out after 3 days. The mind is the biggest obstacle to success.

[3bob]

I thought the sutra was very interesting in several ways...

 

1. A God is recorded as reading the mind and intent of the Buddha. (from afar)

2. A God is recorded as helping the Buddha more or less refute his own doubts.

3. A God is recorded as de-materializing and re-materializing via pure energy to

come and go from physical form.

4. A God is recorded as directly interceeding for the well being of human beings.

5. A God is recorded as fully recognizing the value of Dharma without going through

all sorts of religous ceremony and conditions for communicating about such.

6. Some Buddhists (or perhaps semi-Buddhists if you will?) that I've heard speak

seem to deny or discount the idea and value of a God? (which I feel is refuted

in this text, not to mention others)

7. A God is shown recognizing and honoring the awakened one, thus the God also has

awakening and honor to do such.

8. Not only can our individual lives turn on a dime (so to speak) but so can the

lives of countless beings.

 

Om

Edited March 4, 2010 by 3bob

[Lucky7Strikes]

I thought about what I said and honestly am not willing to spend a lot of energy arguing about Buddhism and what the OP stated in that beautiful Sutra/Sutta. This is the key part of the whole text:

 

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.

 

Some may need one lifetime (as a result of many lifetimes of suffering and experiencing) others need 2000.

 

Best way of understanding Buddhism (if you are ready) is by attending a 3 weeks Vipassana course and retreat in Asia. I have seen seasoned meditators walking out after 3 days. The mind is the biggest obstacle to success.

Good for you.

 

Did you kick back and have a beer after? I mean you know, a man's got to celebrate!

Edited March 4, 2010 by Lucky7Strikes

[3bob]

I thought about what I said and honestly am not willing to spend a lot of energy arguing about Buddhism and what the OP stated in that beautiful Sutra/Sutta. This is the key part of the whole text:

 

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.

 

Some may need one lifetime (as a result of many lifetimes of suffering and experiencing) others need 2000.

 

Best way of understanding Buddhism (if you are ready) is by attending a 3 weeks Vipassana course and retreat in Asia. I have seen seasoned meditators walking out after 3 days. The mind is the biggest obstacle to success.

 

...then again another way to touch on these lines could be to say that the mind in its calm/concentrated and deep state is meditation itself, but attachments to it's to topsy-turvy, uncalm/unconcentrated states is not.

[orb]

I used to like Buddhism until VERY recently. As I looked deeper into it, I realized it is just like any other organized religion, based on fear.

Fear of what will happen to us IN THE NEXT LIFE if we don't do such and such or repeat this mantra in a foreign tongue.

Hell realms, hungry ghost realms etc etc. Eons trapped in horrible existences. What if these realms don't exist.

What a waste it would be to deny ourselves living fully IN THIS LIFE.

This is not to mean living recklessly without concern for the planet and it's inhabitants. We can still lead morally good and compassionate lives without adhering to precepts, commandments and blind guru worship.

Most of us know what is the correct way to conduct ourselves and of the consequences when we don't.

We reap what we sow.

[Sunya]

I used to frequent the e-sangha forums before it crashed. They would always advise me to put my doubts about rebirth "aside" and just practice. But it always remained the elephant in the room, and there is simply no point in practicing Buddhism unless you are willing to at least entertain the notion that you will come back as something else in a future life, and your intentional actions have something to do with it. This is because Buddhism is intended to help people break this cycle.

 

The whole scheme implies that life is something to be transcended, which really ends up devaluing life. And the idea that someone was born into poverty because of past life actions is really just a result of the all too human tendency to superimpose a pattern on reality where there is none.

 

It might be nice to think that Hitler was reborn in the hell realms for what he did, but I suspect there really is no cosmic justice whatsoever.

 

You don't need to be a Buddhist to attain some inner serenity, which is what all these Buddhist "seekers" are after anyway.

 

True, but some people need the believe in rebirth to get them to start practicing and change themselves in this life. Think about how many people believe in just this life and yet squander it away by watching TV all the time and not truly living or doing anything valuable or meaningful.

[Sunya]

I used to like Buddhism until VERY recently. As I looked deeper into it, I realized it is just like any other organized religion, based on fear.

Fear of what will happen to us IN THE NEXT LIFE if we don't do such and such or repeat this mantra in a foreign tongue.

Hell realms, hungry ghost realms etc etc. Eons trapped in horrible existences. What if these realms don't exist.

What a waste it would be to deny ourselves living fully IN THIS LIFE.

This is not to mean living recklessly without concern for the planet and it's inhabitants. We can still lead morally good and compassionate lives without adhering to precepts, commandments and blind guru worship.

Most of us know what is the correct way to conduct ourselves and of the consequences when we don't.

We reap what we sow.

 

Not true. All of the 6 realms stuff is just skillful means and you can view that psychologically as in there are people who are hell being (full of anger), hungry ghosts (full of attachment), gods (full of pride), etc. The core of Buddhism is a powerful psychology that allows for real freedom in this very life. It is empirical and phenomenological and does provide many answers to the common person's dilemma of seeking happiness and truth in the wrong places. Buddhism isn't about commandments or blind guru worship, I think you're confused. There are precepts but these are more like suggestions and if you don't understand their purpose you don't have to adhere to them. Do you kill people? If not, then why not? Do you follow a commandment or do you understand why killing is wrong? This is what Buddhism is like, you inquire into all aspects and if you agree then you integrate.

[innerspace_cadet]

True, but some people need the believe in rebirth to get them to start practicing and change themselves in this life. Think about how many people believe in just this life and yet squander it away by watching TV all the time and not truly living or doing anything valuable or meaningful.

 

True, I didn't think about it that way.

[3bob]

I used to frequent the e-sangha forums before it crashed. They would always advise me to put my doubts about rebirth "aside" and just practice. But it always remained the elephant in the room, and there is simply no point in practicing Buddhism unless you are willing to at least entertain the notion that you will come back as something else in a future life, and your intentional actions have something to do with it. This is because Buddhism is intended to help people break this cycle.

 

The whole scheme implies that life is something to be transcended, which really ends up devaluing life. And the idea that someone was born into poverty because of past life actions is really just a result of the all too human tendency to superimpose a pattern on reality where there is none.

 

It might be nice to think that Hitler was reborn in the hell realms for what he did, but I suspect there really is no cosmic justice whatsoever.

 

You don't need to be a Buddhist to attain some inner serenity, which is what all these Buddhist "seekers" are after anyway.

 

1. I believe the Sanskrit based term of "Buddha" was around for a very long time

before Buddhism itself was founded by the historic Shakyamuni Buddha - thus in

a way this term and its meaning can be used in other schools or religions.

 

2. Besides Hilter, it is nice to know that my "sins" against the Purity can be

corrected and forgiven and that the hell realms are not the last stop for me

and what I am responsible for.

 

3. transcended in the sense of freedom from bondage does not devalue life, it is life

in its fullest.

 

4. karma is complex, thus start with simple dharmas which will add up in a big way

of taking care of complex karmas.

 

5. Rebirth in Hinduism (which sounds more like what you are speaking of?) and

those of Buddhist teachings are not the same with each other, or even the same

within different schools or sects related those religions. Btw, I'd say the main

idea of either is not coming back per-se but being free now and always, regardless

of form, non-form, and or time and place.

 

Good fortune,

Om

[SAMANTABHADRA]

For me, I always interpreted the bardo teachings as having to do with our mind in this very moment. Every new moment is a rebirth of sorts, and every moment between thoughts is a bardo. It is our karma, our habitual thought patterns, our clung-to beliefs, that keep us in our present cycle. In this next moment, you could be totally free of all your baggage, all of your "karma", if you just open your mind up to it's true empty nature and let go of all the bullshit.

 

Buddhist meditation and philosophy is mostly just about seeing this, understanding it, and putting it into practice.

 

I have no clue whether or not I'll be born in a new realm other than this, but the teachings work.

[orb]

I used to like Buddhism until VERY recently. As I looked deeper into it, I realized it is just like any other organized religion, based on fear.

Fear of what will happen to us IN THE NEXT LIFE if we don't do such and such or repeat this mantra in a foreign tongue.

Hell realms, hungry ghost realms etc etc. Eons trapped in horrible existences. What if these realms don't exist.

What a waste it would be to deny ourselves living fully IN THIS LIFE.

This is not to mean living recklessly without concern for the planet and it's inhabitants. We can still lead morally good and compassionate lives without adhering to precepts, commandments and blind guru worship.

Most of us know what is the correct way to conduct ourselves and of the consequences when we don't.

We reap what we sow.

 

I can understand that buddhism is not a good path for you, but to critisize the entire buddhist community in one little post is very silly of you. At the same time you've touched quite a few major topics in one little post - It's amazing.

A couple of days ago I have asked one of our Sangha's Lamas about highly attained people that he had met - I was really hoping that he would tell me about some great yogis in Tibet that I know he had seen before, but to my surprise he never mentioned any of them. He told me that he met a lot of very highly attained people that don't even follow a religion. They just understand life very well and that is enough. One criteria that he mentioned was "...They have a good heart and they are genuinely humble". The same he said about some christian missionaries that went to India to preach their religion and he went to attend their lectures. He said that their teachings were very similar to his own tibetan dharma teachings and that he couldn't agree more with what they were saying.

So again I totally understand that the buddhist approach doesn't work for you but it works for millions of people. A lot of people are just born into it. It's transmitted from generation to generation by their parents just like any other moral or cultural value. It's like children in US go to a baseball game with their parents.

It's a way of life. And buddhists "fully enjoy their lives".

 

Now, many things happen when people look at buddhism with an intelectual western mind point of view.....

Dalai Lama said clearly - people shouldn't convert to another religion. You should stick to your own religion and it would be nice to at least not bash other people's path if you cannot respect it.

 

From another point of view - there are thousands of branches of buddhism. Some buddhists believe in things - others don't believe in anything. Some buddhists say mantras, others never say any mantras. There are bad buddhists, good buddhists, buddhists that eat meat and buddhists that don't eat meat. Who am I to judge them.

 

 

"Fear of next life" - I never even think of the next life. I don't think there's such a thing as a next life. I actually don't even believe in reincarnation. Hell, I don't even believe that most of the religious deities ever existed. A true buddhist doesn't believe in anything. Because that's what Buddha said. And buddhists follow Buddha's teachings otherwise they wouldn't be called "buddhists". As a buddhist you have to verify everything for yourself. As for Buddha himself, he is dead, so he can't help anybody.

 

However you, my friend, you did exactly what buddha said. You verified that buddhism doesn't work for you. Wonderfull, that was very smart of you. That is buddhism. It's about your "SELF". The end of the story.

The "SELF" is very simple. You don't have to label it "buddhism" - you can call it whatever you want.

It's just a room with a door.

But you didn't want to open the door. Maybe it's too simple for you. Or maybe you kept looking in the wrong direction, further, past that door, at the mantras - or at the next life....Maybe you need more complications. Or maybe better stories or smth, who knows?

 

You just don't want to be simple like Buddha.

So you became critical of millions of people in one second...Oh well....

[bobby]

the subtle realms can not be accessed through the intelect....

 

hence the constant to and fro of people who waste their intelectual energy....

 

trying foolishly to enter the subtle realms...with intelectual discourse....

 

the intelect is a tool....

 

it serves its purpose in certain things...

 

but there are things the intelect can not understand...

 

until the person has put into practice the other requirements....

 

such as meditation, reflection and intuition...

[bobby]

Socrates continues that those who have basked in the glory of the sun feel tremendous pity for those who remain in the prison of their minds. They descend into the abyss in order to save the decidedly lost ones.

 

However, when entering the darkness, no one understands the prisoner who has escaped. He speaks in completely foreign terms; no one knows what he is talking about. The cave is the circumference and depth of their world, and there is nothing else. There is no convincing them that the shadows they perceive are illusion.-quote.

 

http://www.gnostic-community.org/forum//viewtopic.php?f=8&t=258

[bobby]

Socrates lastly states that if he tried to rescue more prisoners from their confinements, the others would rise up in rebellion and kill him.-quote.