Buddha and a God

[lifeforce]

Good replies, I knew I'd stirred something up but it wasn't my intention to anger anybody, it's just my perspective after all.

I haven't just come to this realization through reading, but through years of practice, study and meditation.

I've attended Theravada, Tibetan and Zen monasteries. Been instructed in vipassana and anapanasati meditation by high ranking Ajaan's of the Thai Forest tradition. Practiced Pure Land recitation in both it's Chinese and Japanese forms.

It doesn't matter what form of Buddhism, there's far too much emphasis on the future life and what will happen if certain criteria are not met. Thereby a fear is installed in the practitioner ( who apparently doesn't even exist at all !) .

I'm not having a pop solely at Buddhism by the way, ALL religion is based on fear.

I'm totally committed to cultivating the Tao or Way through neigong, IMA and stillness meditation but without the 'ism'.

Maybe I thought Buddhism would compliment my practices, instead it left me feeling resentful of wasting precious time by practicing it in the first place.

[Gerard]

[Sunya]

bobby,

 

It was Plato who wrote the allegory of the cave.

 

Socrates was Plato's teacher, but this pointing toward a reality beyond the senses was present even before Socrates, maybe starting with Parmenides.

[ralis]

Just as I predicted in my earlier post, that it would not take very long for the Buddhist apoplogists to show up! Seems as though they have a problem with attachment!! LOL!!

 

Maybe Buddhism is just a meme!

 

ralis

[Gerard]

Just as I predicted in my earlier post, that it would not take very long for the Buddhist apoplogists to show up! Seems as though they have a problem with attachment!! LOL!!

 

Maybe Buddhism is just a meme!

 

ralis

 

 

???

 

I am trying to figure out what you really up to. Certainly it would be nice if you could share with us your daily practice:

 

Morning...early am. Practice & method

Midday (optional).... Practice & method

Evening...Practice & method

[bobby]

religion is for amateurs....

 

spirituality is for professionals.....quote. unknown.

 

 

I read a message given by aliens a while back....

 

the e.t.`s said that we should not force our spiritual beliefs on anybody...

 

we can inform and that`s it....

 

why?

 

because people are at different stages in their spiritual evolution.....

 

some want to release themselves from bondage to the flesh....

 

while for others....

 

that idea never crosses their mind....

 

because the flesh is for them a strong obsession....

 

an example....

 

to someone who tries a drug like cocaine....

 

the first high is always the best....

 

and he wants to always go back to that first high....

 

but the problem with drugs is that the body builds tolerance to them....

 

and eventually they don`t get high anymore......

 

but in their obsession they cling to that notion of the first high....addicted they destroy their health....

 

in a relative way the same can be said for the flesh....

 

people are always looking to satisfy their carnal desires....

 

never knowing that the physical body is impermanent....

 

thus leading themselves to reincarnation....

 

because although the body dies....

 

the fleshly desire remains....

 

and keeps the poor soul in suffering....life and death...

 

time and time again....

[Lucky7Strikes]

Just as I predicted in my earlier post, that it would not take very long for the Buddhist apoplogists to show up! Seems as though they have a problem with attachment!! LOL!!

 

Maybe Buddhism is just a meme!

 

ralis

Yeah I would also like to know what it is you practice and what your goal, purpose, reason is for practicing if you do.

Edited March 5, 2010 by Lucky7Strikes

[Lucky7Strikes]

religion is for amateurs....

 

spirituality is for professionals.....quote. unknown.

 

HARH!!

 

This view shouldn't even arise.

 

The righteous do no know righteousness, true virtue is without virtue.

Edited March 5, 2010 by Lucky7Strikes

[Sunya]

???

 

I am trying to figure out what you really up to. Certainly it would be nice if you could share with us your daily practice:

 

Morning...early am. Practice & method

Midday (optional).... Practice & method

Evening...Practice & method

 

ralis is just here to argue

[ralis]

ralis is just here to argue

 

And you aren't?

 

ralis

[SFJane]

I used to like Buddhism until VERY recently. As I looked deeper into it, I realized it is just like any other organized religion, based on fear.

Fear of what will happen to us IN THE NEXT LIFE if we don't do such and such or repeat this mantra in a foreign tongue.

Hell realms, hungry ghost realms etc etc. Eons trapped in horrible existences. What if these realms don't exist.

What a waste it would be to deny ourselves living fully IN THIS LIFE.

This is not to mean living recklessly without concern for the planet and it's inhabitants. We can still lead morally good and compassionate lives without adhering to precepts, commandments and blind guru worship.

Most of us know what is the correct way to conduct ourselves and of the consequences when we don't.

We reap what we sow.

 

Not to detract from OP's direction but this post is really interesting and I wanted to respond.

 

Until recently, I didn't care too much about Buddhism either.

 

When I first really got into meditation I was in my early 20s. Like a lot of you I was at a crossroads. I was a shopper in a spiritual market and everything looked good. Tumo in Tibet? Zen in Japan? Kundulini in India? I wanted to do them all. But I knew it would be best to pick one and run with it.

 

At some point my choices had narrowed down to Buddhism and Taoism.

 

I realized, like many of you, that Buddhism is based on hero worship. What would Jesus do became what would Buddha do? Instead of accepting Christ into your heart you want to find your inner Buddha nature. There was the ten precepts and I knew I couldn't adhere to that sort of thing. I had deconverted myself from years of hardcore Catholicism and I did not want to trade one set of 'thou shall and thou shall nots' for another.

 

To be fair, I was about nine months past a serious suicide attempt. Surviving it made me realize just how much of life I was going to miss out on. The idea of that level of asceticism (ten precepts) seemed like excessive straitjacketing and just not practical.

 

As I got more into Buddhist ideology I found the same kind of dogma that disturbs you, Lifeforce.

 

I mean overcoming reincarnation? Screw that. I want to play again. And again. On this planet and on others.

 

Taoism gave me permission to just keep doing what I was doing. I could still smoke pot or have a beer with my friends after work if I wanted. I could have sex with whom I wanted or eat whatever I wanted. I could have a normal life and still keep working on my spiritual evolution at my own pace.

 

Taoist meditation caused me to become comfortable being me. Living in this life.

 

After ten plus years of having Taoist ideas roaming around my brain I see Buddhist teachings much differently. Especially in terms of the 8-fold path.

 

Taoist concepts are pretty simple and at least to me anyway, not ambiguous or confusing. There is a lot less translation. (I think so.) The vocabulary of Buddhism is enormous and convoluted but if you can read between the lines, Buddhism is really quite beautiful.

 

I am still not down with the whole reincarnation thing. I still think for most people, Buddhism may very well be hero worship. Buddha is an elevated personage that gives you a bar or bench mark so-to-speak. That's great and everything but that's not what I find interesting.

 

Much of life's confusion is caused by suffering. That is a truth. A life without excessive distractions, over-stimulation, drama, conflict combined with mindfulness will gradually empower you to apprehend your consciousness and perceive what is going on with reality and how you relate to the world both as a social human animal and as an awake Presence or Being.

 

To that end, you can work on the Chan and meditate and don't worry about the next life or being an arhat (aranhat?) or whatever. Just be mindful and carry on with a low stress life and many of the noble truths will become really quite obvious. I don't need to be in agreement with all of it to see that it is really quite brilliant. In that way, the older I get the more that I respect Buddhism.

Edited March 5, 2010 by SFJane

[Gerard]

...In that way, the older I get the more that I respect Buddhism.

 

To sum up, in the end you'll realise that training the spirit via the mind is worthwhile. That training has a name: Buddha's path; but could also be called "nano-supernova ultimate consciouness" or "alpha-epsilom 6775 secret brotherhood's pearl". Whatever name fancies you.

[SFJane]

To sum up, in the end you'll realise that training the spirit via the mind is worthwhile. That training has a name: Buddha's path; but could also be called "nano-supernova ultimate consciouness" or "alpha-epsilom 6775 secret brotherhood's pearl". Whatever name fancies you.

 

Yeah.

 

A. It's worthwhile.

B. There is wisdom in the ten precepts.

C. The path need not be a dogmatic, slavish devotion to an ideal.

D. You get out of it what you put into it.

 

E. Philosophy differences aside, in terms of the journey of the mind, Taoism and Buddhism are not all that different in their understanding of the condition of the human psyche.

 

 

 

Maybe I thought Buddhism would compliment my practices, instead it left me feeling resentful of wasting precious time by practicing it in the first place.

 

 

How interesting.

 

I felt that way about my trip through Wicca and Reiki years after the fact.

 

In the end I accepted that I learned things from both paths and so could not chalk it up as a complete waste. It was my path. Plus, it was fun.

Edited March 6, 2010 by SFJane

[ralis]

???

 

I am trying to figure out what you really up to. Certainly it would be nice if you could share with us your daily practice:

 

Morning...early am. Practice & method

Midday (optional).... Practice & method

Evening...Practice & method

 

I thought this thread was about Buddha and a God!

 

ralis

[Sunya]

And you aren't?

 

ralis

 

Nope. I just like communicating with people and sharing ideas.

[Sarnyn]

Hey all,

 

I'm just stopping in to say that I think that the doctrine of reincarnation in Buddhism should not be seen as some distant far off removed event, and actually an interpretation of reincarnation in this way would be counter to what we are taught in for instance the heart or the satipatthana suttas. Reincarnation should be viewed as a process that is constantly going on in the body, and mind states. It really doesn't make any sense to view it otherwise,as some far off removed event. Really, the concept of reincarnation could be viewed very similar to the concept of toaist cultivation. The concepts of reincarnation and cultivation (to me) seem very similar.

 

It is no philosophy of fear that says if a Taoist fails to cultivate, he will remain uncultivated. That is just the law of karma, or cause and effect. If a Buddhist fails to purify his mind, his mind will remain un-purified. This is not fire and brimstone theology, but one of natural consequences and choices. If I exercise and eat well, the health of my body will increase. I'm not playing off anybodies fear to tell them that if they eat poorly and live a sedentary lifestyle, the health of their body will suffer. That is simply natures law, cause and effect.

 

In other words, it doesn't make sense to equate the purification of the mind with the idea of fear, and then to turn around and advocate the philosophy of cultivation.

 

Now, a real critique I admit, is the one others have mentioned in this thread already, the critique of the concept of ego extinction, and the braking of the link in the chain of causation at the level of desire and craving. This is an area of debate that warrants investigation at the personal level. I won't add to the flames of that fire however, because it is still burning in my own mind.

Edited March 6, 2010 by Sarnyn

[Pero]

...

 

B. There is wisdom in the ten precepts.

 

Jane, I'm not surprised that you thought the 10 precepts were too ascetic, after all, they are meant for monks. For lay people there are the 5 precepts, not killing, stealing, lying, doing sexual misconduct and alcohol.

 

E. Philosophy differences aside, in terms of the journey of the mind, Taoism and Buddhism are not all that different in their understanding of the condition of the human psyche.

 

And much to my surprise I found that Taoism (or at least one branch of it) has their 10 precepts...

 

10 Taoist Precepts

 

1. Do not kill but always be mindful of the host of living beings.
2. Do not be lascivious or think depraved thoughts.
3. Do not steal or receive unrighteous wealth.
4. Do not cheat or misrepresent good and evil.
5. Do not get intoxicated but always think of pure conduct.
6. I will maintain harmony with my ancestors and family and never disregard my kin.
7. When I see someone do a good deed, I will support him with joy and delight.
8. When I see someone unfortunate, I will support him with dignity to recover good fortune.
9. When someone comes to do me harm, I will not harbor thoughts of revenge.
10. As long as all beings have not attained the Tao, I will not expect to do so myself.

[SFJane]

 

And much to my surprise I found that Taoism (or at least one branch of it) has their 10 precepts...

 

10 Taoist Precepts

 

1. Do not kill but always be mindful of the host of living beings.
2. Do not be lascivious or think depraved thoughts.
3. Do not steal or receive unrighteous wealth.
4. Do not cheat or misrepresent good and evil.
5. Do not get intoxicated but always think of pure conduct.
6. I will maintain harmony with my ancestors and family and never disregard my kin.
7. When I see someone do a good deed, I will support him with joy and delight.
8. When I see someone unfortunate, I will support him with dignity to recover good fortune.
9. When someone comes to do me harm, I will not harbor thoughts of revenge.
10. As long as all beings have not attained the Tao, I will not expect to do so myself.

 

Don't those ten precepts seem to be 'rewrites' of the Buddhist ones to you?

 

It is my understanding that at certain times and places in China, Taoists and Buddhists have influenced each other in both ideas and meditative practices. One such location may very well be Tian Tai Mountain.

 

http://www.travelchinaguide.com/attraction/zhejiang/hangzhou/mt_tiantai.htm

 

I am not sure those ten so-called Taoist precepts are in fact Taoist canon but a hybridization of Buddhist thought. Number 6 looks to me to be a result of Confucian influence.

Edited March 6, 2010 by SFJane

[Gerard]

I thought this thread was about Buddha and a God!

 

ralis

 

How childish! I can see subtle trolling. Bad karma.

[lino]

I used to like Buddhism until VERY recently. As I looked deeper into it, I realized it is just like any other organized religion, based on fear.

Fear of what will happen to us IN THE NEXT LIFE if we don't do such and such or repeat this mantra in a foreign tongue.

Hell realms, hungry ghost realms etc etc. Eons trapped in horrible existences. What if these realms don't exist.

What a waste it would be to deny ourselves living fully IN THIS LIFE.

This is not to mean living recklessly without concern for the planet and it's inhabitants. We can still lead morally good and compassionate lives without adhering to precepts, commandments and blind guru worship.

Most of us know what is the correct way to conduct ourselves and of the consequences when we don't.

We reap what we sow.

 

1. Stream-entry is so easy that children trip over it. You have to really, really screw up to get to an unfortunate existence. Remember that Angulimala(Garland of Fingers) became an Arhat. So repair does exist.

[ralis]

How childish! I can see subtle trolling. Bad karma.

 

I was sticking to the topic. Asking me what my practice is, is not the topic! I don't need your arrogant judgmental attitude about what karma is or is not. Why in your opinion is trolling (which I am not doing) bad karma and calling me childish is not? Exactly what book of rules did you refer to that denotes what karma is or is not?

 

Why the serious attachment to your belief system? I thought Buddhism was about not being attached?

 

Of course, you will probably not be able to answer my questions! :lol:

 

 

ralis

[Gerard]

Calm down.

[3bob]

Hey all,

 

I'm just stopping in to say that I think that the doctrine of reincarnation in Buddhism should not be seen as some distant far off removed event, and actually an interpretation of reincarnation in this way would be counter to what we are taught in for instance the heart or the satipatthana suttas. Reincarnation should be viewed as a process that is constantly going on in the body, and mind states. It really doesn't make any sense to view it otherwise,as some far off removed event. Really, the concept of reincarnation could be viewed very similar to the concept of toaist cultivation. The concepts of reincarnation and cultivation (to me) seem very similar.

 

It is no philosophy of fear that says if a Taoist fails to cultivate, he will remain uncultivated. That is just the law of karma, or cause and effect. If a Buddhist fails to purify his mind, his mind will remain un-purified. This is not fire and brimstone theology, but one of natural consequences and choices. If I exercise and eat well, the health of my body will increase. I'm not playing off anybodies fear to tell them that if they eat poorly and live a sedentary lifestyle, the health of their body will suffer. That is simply natures law, cause and effect.

 

In other words, it doesn't make sense to equate the purification of the mind with the idea of fear, and then to turn around and advocate the philosophy of cultivation.

 

Now, a real critique I admit, is the one others have mentioned in this thread already, the critique of the concept of ego extinction, and the braking of the link in the chain of causation at the level of desire and craving. This is an area of debate that warrants investigation at the personal level. I won't add to the flames of that fire however, because it is still burning in my own mind.

 

 

Hello Sarnyn,

Several good points, and considering that this is the internet I think your last point really hits the mark. "This is an area of debate that warrants investigation at the personal level. I won't add to the flames of that fire however, because it is still burning in my own mind".

 

Good fortune

[ralis]

Calm down.

 

 

Is that all you can say! What about some answers to my questions!

 

ralis

[Pero]

Don't those ten precepts seem to be 'rewrites' of the Buddhist ones to you?

 

1-5 yes, 6-10 no. This just comparing the precepts themselves, otherwise I think also 7-10 could be found in Buddhism in similar fashion.

 

It is my understanding that at certain times and places in China, Taoists and Buddhists have influenced each other in both ideas and meditative practices.

 

Yes, I heard so too.