Sexuality & Spirituality

[Athanor]

Well, without over-complicating it:

what is the proper relation between sexuality and spirituality?

 

One type uses sex as a guideline on the spiritual path (like tantra), while another avoids sexuality for good (like most religions). Average people take a bit of both, they deal with some spirituality and have some sex. But this isn't good enough.

I'm thinking about the ultimate potential. What is the best for us in an ultimate way? Not averagely - ultimately. Buddhism says that avoiding sexual intercourse is good because we need to get rid of attachments, and sexuality is an attachment. Taoism says that avoiding ejaculation is healthy because so we spare our sexual energy and that energy is used in our spiritual development. Then again, think about this:

If taoism is something what everyone should do because it's the ultimate truth, and we should avoid ejaculation, or sex for that matter, then if everyone would become a taoist, humanity would extinct in a century. No children would ever be born. The thing is that this whole enlightenment stuff, and that everyone should become enlightened and we should help each other (all sentient beings) to reach enlightenment, and by knowing that animals can reincarnate (or reborn or whatever) in human form, so the thing is that it is only possible if sex is a part of the life of the taoist. Or the Buddhist, or everyone. Because we must ensure that there will be a next generation.

 

I hope this makes sense.

 

I want to know how to determine whether something is a healthy sexual desire, or an unhealthy craving for the sake of bodily satisfaction. At first it might seem easy to distinguish, but it's really not. I mean it's not like appetite and hunger: you can determine whether you're really hungry, or you just have appetite for some food. In sex it's different. You can't separate your mind from the body in this case, because the sexual need is always triggered by the mind which receives some sort of sexual impression. When you see a beautiful person then you think of sex and you get excited - there you have the desire. But, in a spiritual sense, is it a desire or a craving? A spontaneous happening that can be examined and lived to the fullest, or a mental trick, an egoist struggle to get satisfaction for the mere sake of the ego?

 

 

PLEASE! I already know many opinions of laymen. I'd like to know the thoughts of someone who has WISDOM about this.

 

You can share your opinion, of course, but please make it clear whether you're sharing an opinion, your personal experience, some teaching what a master told you once, or your true, intimate and deeply lived wisdom. Thank you.

[NeiChuan]

"Then again, think about this:

If taoism is something what everyone should do because it's the ultimate truth, and we should avoid ejaculation, or sex for that matter, then if everyone would become a taoist, humanity would extinct in a century. No children would ever be born."

 

Hm no I disagree.. People would just choose when to have kids is all.. When there older mostlikely. My teacher when done learning was told to "go get married have children and practice.." So im sure a Taoist would be able to live enough of that portion of there life to actually have children.

 

If anything I'd say society would grow much much faster.

Edited March 4, 2010 by NeiChuan

[Sloppy Zhang]

How did you get here?

 

Were you born?

 

If so, you got here through sex.

 

Sex is how we, as humans, got here. Sex is how we, as humans, will remain here. Sexuality is part of being human. Humans (I believe, at least) are spiritual. Therefore sexuality is part of being spiritual. It is one of the many facets of being human.

 

You have intellect, emotions, feelings, attachments, hopes, dreams, and sexual feelings.

 

To deny these is to deny being human, and I think that pretty much any spiritual path I have read about (if not directly studied) has, as one of its central goals, realization, and part of that realization is realizing what you are: human. That entails so many good things, and so many bad things.

 

 

However, just like anything, it can be bad when taken to extremes. Too much sex? Bad news. Not enough sex? Could be signs of a problem.

 

Now this doesn't mean if you don't have sex there's something wrong with you- rather, it's the repression of sex, or the revulsion by sex, and stuff like that, which is the problem. You can be like, "yeah sex is cool it's just not my thing." That's not bad, I don't think.

 

There are many health benefits to sex, many health benefits to masturbation. Chemicals are produced, things are moved around, yadda yadda. Too much can cause a problem. So how do you know when something is going to be healthy? Stillness, introspection, reflection. Are you having sexual desires because your body is saying, "hey I need to produce some chemicals", or are you getting sexual desires because you've got a bunch of porn on your computer? Are you having sexual desires because every night before you go to bed it helps to get a little release to help you fall asleep? Is it REALLY something for your body, or is it a neural pathway that's been made, an emotional crutch that's been developed?

 

For this, only you can answer. It's part of realizing your true nature. B.K. Frantzis writes in one of his books that his teacher, Liu Hung Chieh, said sex really doesn't impact spirituality- some people have more than others. But that again comes from reflection- are you having these feelings because YOU want them, or because they have been forced on you?

 

 

Anyway, just think about it. Especially for Taoism, which draws so many things from nature and the natural world. A while ago someone posted the blood sutra (I think it was), and one of the things it mentioned was part of enlightenment is realizing that you are human. That includes having sex. Now, whether you can have sex without attachment is another matter, but just because you abstain from sex doesn't mean you are free from attachment, and just because you have sex doesn't mean you are bound by it.

 

You've obviously already figured out that if we all stopped having sex, none of us would be here keep going.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Tux]

Very thought provoking question! Makes the sci-fi department of my mind start to grind into action...

 

I'd imagine that on a planet where every sentient being has honed their intelligence to the highest point, everyone that truly wanted to have sex and felt they could enjoy and gain something from it would go for it, and anyone that had weighed the consequences of having a child on themselves and their environment and decided to go for that too would do it in a way you and I can scarcely understand. I mean, there'd be a real explicit importance and sacredness in the decision to have a child--a respect for the balance of the biosphere and a respect for the culture that everyone knows is the correct way to live.

 

This is assuming that once everyone had mastered the Taoist tradition, no one would realize another spiritual method.

 

Maybe everyone should practice Catholicism because it is the ultimate truth, so that we can superpopulate the planet as fast as possible and get rid of the species THAT way! Either way, we might be going down. If the human body is a metaphor for the universe, I'd say that's what's happening. Then again this is all using rational thought, which doesn't have much of a place in (what I consider to be) some of the more important decisions people make.

 

Not to sound like a layman, but I think everyone might be a layman!

[Athanor]

Sex is how we, as humans, got here. Sex is how we, as humans, will remain here. Sexuality is part of being human. Humans (I believe, at least) are spiritual. Therefore sexuality is part of being spiritual. It is one of the many facets of being human.

 

You have intellect, emotions, feelings, attachments, hopes, dreams, and sexual feelings.

 

To deny these is to deny being human, and I think that pretty much any spiritual path I have read about (if not directly studied) has, as one of its central goals, realization, and part of that realization is realizing what you are: human. That entails so many good things, and so many bad things.

What you forget here is that we, even as living creatures, and also as humans, we also have instincts, of which one is sexual instinct. If you look at nature from this perspective, you will find that there is about 1/4 of each and every year, when all male animals try to have as much sex as they can with as many female animals they can. This also belongs to our nature... should we act the same way?

 

When people come up with our "natural parts" which should help us realize what belongs to us and what doesn't, they tend to forget that we have these kinds of instincts, and even worse, and a subconscious mind that is so big that without consciousness it would ruin our civilization. And since nothing else has a consciousness like ours, so nothing - no animal or known creature on Earth - can be a pattern to determine how we should act, what whe should do.

 

Are you having sexual desires because your body is saying, "hey I need to produce some chemicals", or are you getting sexual desires because you've got a bunch of porn on your computer?

My body is saying "hey I need to produce some chemicals" when my mind is saying that too. Without my mind saying it, my body will never say it. And, if you have a sexy workmate who makes you 'happy' each and every day because she's so gorgeous, so there's a constant sexual stimulus in your life unwillingly, it doesn't mean that you should have sex with her each and every day. I mean having a bunch of porn on your computer is a decision that you fill your life-space with sexually overheated material, but you can't make this decision or the opposite for all areas of your life. You didn't choose who to work with, or who will be your neighbor. If your neighbor is conveniently a pretty girl who raises your interest, you will either have to resist, or you will probably have to surrender to the feelings triggered by her unwillingly much often than you would if she wouldn't live there.

If you are surrounded by sexual impulses, which may or may not be your choice, then your attitude to sexuality is much different from someone who's not surrounded by such things. The question is, if you don't have a choice to change your environment, then how to deal with what's already there?

[hagar]

The day you stop having desires is the day you die

 

There is this great emphasis in western daoist contexts that sexual energy should be sublimated to enhance spiritual development.

 

I am at loss, after considerable time to really define what this spiritual development has to do with sexual energy. I don't mean theoretically, but experientially. How does this work? Where can sublimated, post-natal sexually aroused Jing chi help my chances of realization, awakening, insight? Anyone?

 

My own take on this, (and I really think I know less about this now than, say 5 years ago) is that there is desire, and there is attachement, or holding on to desire. Sexual desire is not detrimental to spirituality, more than being hungry is. Using your desire as a vehicle to escape more latent and subtle needs, fears, pain or longing is.

 

In that sense, anything that compromises your integrity runs counter to spiritual connection, yet the very obstacle to spiritual connection is the one thing that brings you to the point where true spritual realization becomes possible.

 

No attachements no liberation

 

Just my 2 kroner

 

h

[Athanor]

My own take on this, (and I really think I know less about this now than, say 5 years ago) is that there is desire, and there is attachement, or holding on to desire. Sexual desire is not detrimental to spirituality, more than being hungry is. Using your desire as a vehicle to escape more latent and subtle needs, fears, pain or longing is.

I don't understand this last sentence, what do you mean by using sexual desire to escape needs or fears? How could it happen?

In that sense, anything that compromises your integrity runs counter to spiritual connection, yet the very obstacle to spiritual connection is the one thing that brings you to the point where true spritual realization becomes possible.

I don't understand this one either.

Can you explain what you meant here? Thx.

[三江源]

The way we use our sexual energy is representative of the way we respond to life.

 

That's all there is to it.

[Athanor]

The way we use our sexual energy is representative of the way we respond to life.

 

That's all there is to it.

Interesting thought, but what does one's sexuality tell about the way one responds to life? What can you know about it? What could I know about my own responding to life from my sexuality? - or backwards, I think that also works.

[hagar]

I think Cat's answer is spot on to both your questions actually.

 

What fuels my way of relating to my desires reveals where I am stuck, where I am traumatized, where I am in pain. If I find myself hooked on casual sexual encounters, the real problem is not my uncontrollable desire, which is pretty much a physical impulse, but how I respond to my impulse. If I respond to this impulse in an unconscious way, it often cloaks a latent issue, a pain, a need or a sense of lack that can run quite deep. It boils down to where I am separate, where I feel disconnected, and long for a sense of love, connection, belonging.

 

The interesting thing is that when this sense we hold this sense of disconnection without trying to change it in our awareness, interesting spiritual stuff starts to happen.

 

h

[Athanor]

I think Cat's answer is spot on to both your questions actually.

 

What fuels my way of relating to my desires reveals where I am stuck, where I am traumatized, where I am in pain. If I find myself hooked on casual sexual encounters, the real problem is not my uncontrollable desire, which is pretty much a physical impulse, but how I respond to my impulse. If I respond to this impulse in an unconscious way, it often cloaks a latent issue, a pain, a need or a sense of lack that can run quite deep. It boils down to where I am separate, where I feel disconnected, and long for a sense of love, connection, belonging.

 

The interesting thing is that when this sense we hold this sense of disconnection without trying to change it in our awareness, interesting spiritual stuff starts to happen.

 

h

You mean, according to spiritual development, our sexuality should simply be observed, without actually deriving anything from it, or concluding something from it intellectually, regardless of how intense, perverted or whatsoever it might be? And so it will develop us in a spiritual manner, just like any other kind of self-observation, and lead to a "more proper" sexuality, if such thing exists at all... Is this what you mean?

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

I can olny offer my 'personal eperience', so:

 

It's ALL 'Enegy'.. each manifestation of Energy has it's own unique vibrational signature.. as we interact with existence/Life we find resonance or disonance with each interaction.. to the 'stilled mind', the resonance/disonance is evident.. Energy has no agendas, preferences, or prejudices, until it is manifested by the intentions of Consciousness, so.. 'still the mind', listen, and the answers are revealed.. for the 'stilled mind', the arbitrary standards, values, and judgments are absent.. sexuality has its own 'vibrational signature', and that signature is altered by the intentions of the participants.. listen carefully, the resonance or disonance will counsel you appropriately..

 

Be well..

Edited March 4, 2010 by TzuJanLi

[hagar]

You mean, according to spiritual development, our sexuality should simply be observed, without actually deriving anything from it, or concluding something from it intellectually, regardless of how intense, perverted or whatsoever it might be? And so it will develop us in a spiritual manner, just like any other kind of self-observation, and lead to a "more proper" sexuality, if such thing exists at all... Is this what you mean?

 

I'm by no means an authority on Daoist perspectives on sexuality. But my point was just that we can use our way of relating to our desires to see where we are stuck, where we act from an unconsious place, and bring that to light. Our sexuality or our relationships may be as unenlightened as anybody else, even if we are really "spiritually" advanced, and have lived many years in a hermitage.

 

The aim may not be to have a more "proper" sexuality. Such things are related to normativity. What I argue is that our desires will remain, eventhough we "sublimate" them. Spirituality cannot solve our problems, either how we relate to our sexuality or how we live out our lives in any other way. Spritual insight dissolves an identification with whatever is there.

 

h

[Creation]

I think Cat's answer is spot on to both your questions actually.

 

What fuels my way of relating to my desires reveals where I am stuck, where I am traumatized, where I am in pain. If I find myself hooked on casual sexual encounters, the real problem is not my uncontrollable desire, which is pretty much a physical impulse, but how I respond to my impulse. If I respond to this impulse in an unconscious way, it often cloaks a latent issue, a pain, a need or a sense of lack that can run quite deep. It boils down to where I am separate, where I feel disconnected, and long for a sense of love, connection, belonging.

 

The interesting thing is that when this sense we hold this sense of disconnection without trying to change it in our awareness, interesting spiritual stuff starts to happen.

 

h

Golden. Thank you and good luck in your cultivation.

[Eric Yudelove]

Well, without over-complicating it:

what is the proper relation between sexuality and spirituality?

 

One type uses sex as a guideline on the spiritual path (like tantra), while another avoids sexuality for good (like most religions). Average people take a bit of both, they deal with some spirituality and have some sex. But this isn't good enough.

I'm thinking about the ultimate potential. What is the best for us in an ultimate way? Not averagely - ultimately. Buddhism says that avoiding sexual intercourse is good because we need to get rid of attachments, and sexuality is an attachment. Taoism says that avoiding ejaculation is healthy because so we spare our sexual energy and that energy is used in our spiritual development. Then again, think about this:

If taoism is something what everyone should do because it's the ultimate truth, and we should avoid ejaculation, or sex for that matter, then if everyone would become a taoist, humanity would extinct in a century. No children would ever be born. The thing is that this whole enlightenment stuff, and that everyone should become enlightened and we should help each other (all sentient beings) to reach enlightenment, and by knowing that animals can reincarnate (or reborn or whatever) in human form, so the thing is that it is only possible if sex is a part of the life of the taoist. Or the Buddhist, or everyone. Because we must ensure that there will be a next generation.

 

I hope this makes sense.

 

I want to know how to determine whether something is a healthy sexual desire, or an unhealthy craving for the sake of bodily satisfaction. At first it might seem easy to distinguish, but it's really not. I mean it's not like appetite and hunger: you can determine whether you're really hungry, or you just have appetite for some food. In sex it's different. You can't separate your mind from the body in this case, because the sexual need is always triggered by the mind which receives some sort of sexual impression. When you see a beautiful person then you think of sex and you get excited - there you have the desire. But, in a spiritual sense, is it a desire or a craving? A spontaneous happening that can be examined and lived to the fullest, or a mental trick, an egoist struggle to get satisfaction for the mere sake of the ego?

 

 

PLEASE! I already know many opinions of laymen. I'd like to know the thoughts of someone who has WISDOM about this.

 

You can share your opinion, of course, but please make it clear whether you're sharing an opinion, your personal experience, some teaching what a master told you once, or your true, intimate and deeply lived wisdom. Thank you.

Edited March 12, 2010 by Eric Yudelove

[Eric Yudelove]

Hi Eric, thanks for your addition in this thread. One phrase jumped out at me. Marital status. Would you please explain so that I can understand you better?

 

I want to believe that you mean "committed relationship," not necessarily a legal contract with the government. (But I won't know unless I ask. )

 

Additionally, do you also see monogamy as an essential component in a marriage or committed relationship?

[/quote

Edited March 12, 2010 by Eric Yudelove

[Birch]

I know that religion and spirituality overlap. I also consider that religions are primarily sociocultural solutions for dealing with ways to live (and prosper) in our lives altogther.

 

As soon as any religion (or overlapping spiritual practice) includes precepts concerning sexuality and reproduction, I gotta ask myself some questions about why such precepts came into being and how they have been considered and used in the past and how they are being considered and used in the present.

 

I'd defer to Witch for some of her very clear explanations of different types of female orgasm and what states of mind they put women in. Some societies go so far as to restrict female sexual pleasure. Some of them do it via barbaric physical methods. Some of them via barbaric social methods. Why?

[Eric23]

Why?

 

Because it scares the hell out of them.

[Enishi]

I think what scares them is the hypergamous urge many women have of only being interested in men at the top of the social hierarchy, even if said status comes about from negative selfish behavior. If people lack a healthy knowledge of how to cure the neurosis among both men and women, I think that an unhealthy society tends to slide in a patriarchal repressive direction as a means of preventing it's own eventual destruction.

Edited March 6, 2010 by Enishi

[Athanor]

I think what scares them is the hypergamous urge many women have of only being interested in men at the top of the social hierarchy, even if said status comes about from negative selfish behavior. If people lack a healthy knowledge of how to cure the neurosis among both men and women, I think that an unhealthy society tends to slide in a patriarchal repressive direction as a means of preventing it's own eventual destruction.

So you think imbalanced sexuality, or the feeling that the spiritual and sexual desires aren't in harmony with each other, is the result of a basically ego-centered, fear-oriented mental attitude?

Well actually it makes sense.

[Birch]

"I think what scares them is the hypergamous urge many women have of only being interested in men at the top of the social hierarchy, even if said status comes about from negative selfish behavior."

 

Ah well, I must be different for I do not care one bit for "men at the top of the social hierarchy, even if said status comes about from negative selfish behavior." because of the behaviour that might go with. Because perhaps this behaviour would almost certainly also be directed at yours truly. Nah, I don't go for that. Don't enjoy those boys Can't much do with the neurotics either

[Athanor]

"I think what scares them is the hypergamous urge many women have of only being interested in men at the top of the social hierarchy, even if said status comes about from negative selfish behavior."

 

Ah well, I must be different for I do not care one bit for "men at the top of the social hierarchy, even if said status comes about from negative selfish behavior." because of the behaviour that might go with. Because perhaps this behaviour would almost certainly also be directed at yours truly. Nah, I don't go for that. Don't enjoy those boys Can't much do with the neurotics either

Women tend to comfort themselves with ideas that they don't care (in a sexual-relational manner) about men of power; they do this simply because those specific people don't have an interest in them. Such statements are used as a self-protection, usually an unconscious one, and it would change in an instant, if someone from the top of the social hierarchy would suddenly show interest in such a woman. However, this is also true for men and the women on the top.

[三江源]

Women tend to comfort themselves with ideas that they don't care (in a sexual-relational manner) about men of power; they do this simply because those specific people don't have an interest in them. Such statements are used as a self-protection, usually an unconscious one, and it would change in an instant, if someone from the top of the social hierarchy would suddenly show interest in such a woman. However, this is also true for men and the women on the top.

 

Athanor, this is so utterly untrue. You are really way off on this one.

 

Kate is spot on.

[Athanor]

Athanor, this is so utterly untrue. You are really way off on this one.

 

Kate is spot on.

Maybe I'm untrue and psychological therapy is a joke, and Freud was also wrong - and you're right. Or maybe you're just one of them, as I am too.

Denial is a common response to ugly truth.

[immortal_sister]

freud was full of BS. and yes, a LOT of psychological therapy methods and theories are BS too...

 

seems like a lot of men on this forum think they know everything about what women believe and what women like. i'll have to side with kate and cat on this one and say that liking men at the "top of the hierarchy" is not true of all women. it is common, sure. but i think you will most likely find that women that step outside of the norms with their beliefs and goals in life (aka, probably a lot of the women on TTB) are not this way. and its not just denial.