Question for Taoists and Buddhists

[Lucky7Strikes]

@ Birch

 

I'm not sure whether you are reading or listening to Krishnamurti. I didn't really, truly, begin to appreciate him until I heard his voice. I still go back when I feel lazy because his intensity is unmatched.

[Birch Tree]

@ Birch

 

I'm not sure whether you are reading or listening to Krishnamurti. I didn't really, truly, begin to appreciate him until I heard his voice. I still go back when I feel lazy because his intensity is unmatched.

 

Hi Lucky7Strikes,

 

I've never heard Krishnamurti, but I have a couple of his books. I've read "This Light in Oneself" which was great. I also have "The First and Last Freedom" on my bookshelf and it is a couple of spots down in my reading queue. I'll have to see if I can find some tapes of his somewhere. I really enjoy his discussions.

 

All the best,

 

Birch Tree

[RyanO]

Hi Lucky7Strikes,

 

I've never heard Krishnamurti, but I have a couple of his books. I've read "This Light in Oneself" which was great. I also have "The First and Last Freedom" on my bookshelf and it is a couple of spots down in my reading queue. I'll have to see if I can find some tapes of his somewhere. I really enjoy his discussions.

 

All the best,

 

Birch Tree

 

Check out 'Freedom From The Known'. Blew My Mind! Though I think a lot of the same material is in 'The First and Last Freedom'. I also read 'This Light in Oneself' and agree it is awesome.

[3bob]

Birch Tree,

 

I would not suggest letting go of the raft(s) or taking sayings like, "killing the Buddha" lightly... for such are really pointing towards the end of the journey when stepping on shore, are they not? The Buddhist teachings imply to me that the Historic Buddha fully relied upon his "rafts" or the jhanas and dharmas until he was finally able to let go of them after attaining and then moving beyond (so to speak) the "8th liberation", which he reached via key help and instructions from his "Hindu" based gurus. Thus we may talk about this and that but lets face it many of us are not very far into the liberations (as steady or maintainable states) and imo it would be foolish to let go of or dismantle workable rafts that we may use in stormy seas - whether they are our own or belong to somebody else!

 

Also, (imo) mountains of talk about "change" are more or less missing the point if the following Buddhist verse is not taken as the most important teaching and or point of Buddhism... then again I don't belong to any school of Buddhism so I'm not an authority on it like that which you may be seeking?

 

"There is monks, an unborn - unbecome - unmade - unfabricated. If there were not that unborn - unbecome - unmade - unfabricated, there would not be the case that emancipation from the born - become - made - fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn - unbecome - unmade - unfabricated, emancipation from the born - become - made - fabricated is discerned".

Shakyamuni Buddha

 

(Nibbana Sutta, Ud 8.3, Thanissaro 1994)

 

(further)

"The Prajnaparamita-samchayagatha elaborates:

 

If a Bodhisattva considers

The psychophysical aggregates as being 'void',

He is grasping a conceptual reality,

Thus showing little reverance toward that which is 'unborn' ".

 

(in Lobsang P.Lhalungpa(trans), 2006, Mahamudra -The Moonlight-, Quintessence of Mind and Meditation, by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal, Wisdom Publications, p82-3)

 

Good fortune to you

 

Om

Edited March 12, 2010 by 3bob

[Gerard]

First, I believe that buddhism and taoism in China have been together for such a long time that it is really hard to give a pure "taoist" or "buddhist" answer.

 

You're right

 

 

 

 

durkhrod chogori:

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I agree with your individualistic ideas regarding spiritual development. I've recently just finished Krishnamurti's "This Light in Oneself" and I completely agree that one's own spiritual and meditative experiences are individually experienced. However, in writing this, I realize that I may indeed be falling into a duality trap (the type that I talked about above in my response to Stigweard). Would you agree with this assessment? This is a struggle for me personally--how to maintain an individualist view of spirituality while at the same time realizing that all things are one in the Tao? Any insights you have on this would be greatly appreciated.

 

What I meant by individuality is not listening to other experiences in walking the path because let me tell you the MIND has the innate ability to grasp to anything it can find on its way. They are called fetters in Buddhism

 

 

 

Sometimes when I read your posts I feel as if you have a condescending attitude towards those who are not on the "path"

 

Please ignore that feeling. I know I am a tough person in terms of having a lot of self-discipline but not condescending at all. I know it is caused by my martial arts background but I never think I am better than anyone else. Maybe what you feel is fire (I was born in 1966)

[de_paradise]

Hi Birch,

 

You seem like such a thoughtful person. In my previous comment, the difference I tried to suggest is not emotional or unemotional, although there is that important element. I was suggesting to get more in touch with the energies that happen due to the compassionate thoughts. Certain thoughts create special energies, and it just so happens that a very powerful thought is the giving-sacrificing-offering kind of thought. If you want to extend the power of this practise, then I suggest watching your own thoughts and energies very closely so that you can find the "hot button" where you may actually feel the result, that is to say, you may feel an energy shift, or a feeling of well being. This is not just in order to feel good, but so that your body will translate and use that energy to clear your chi channels, open knots, etc-this happens automatically. All we need to do is push the hot button so to speak, by generating the thoughts and feelings, and your body (energy body) will do the rest.

 

When we think of words, there is also underlying pictures and relations created deep in our minds. When we want to generate a certain feeling, of gratitude, for example, during meditation, we can create little scenarios such as feeling grateful standing before your mother (for example).

 

The trick in contemplation-type meditations is to find which combination of thoughts and feelings generate the best strongest result. This is called going deeper into the meditation/contemplation.

 

@Lucky 7. The cultivation practise of doing good things/egoless behavior/compassion, and doing these kind of contemplations is not the same as what you are suggesting, which is some kind of ideal-Buddha-spontaneously always overbrimming with compassion. What I am talking about is the day to day practise that can help further ones spiritual attainment, the hard everyday decision stuff. Its best make this distinction and not confuse the two, because I find they are often confused by people who just read books on enlightenment and havent the experience, they talk about ideals and how high level people act, not having experience themselves. I am aware there is the energetic paths to acheive the high level purification that you mention, but this is not same issue as the sadhana that Birch Tree is talking about. This brings to mind why Durkhrod says talk is confusing. People visit these threads and their minds are on different pages, and we end up with such a mishmash of misplaced emphasis, misunderstandings, stuff taken of context, etc.

Edited March 12, 2010 by de_paradise

[Sunya]

J Krishnamurti (not to be confused with UG Krishnamurti) spoke of having memories, while in Bodh Gaya India, of being the Buddha's disciple, in actuality. I found that pretty interesting.

[Stigweard]

Stigweard:

Good to hear from you again my friend. I am still benefiting from the wisdom you shared with me from the last thread that I started (several months ago now). Unfortunately, I still find myself falling into the old duality traps. I know that on some level there is no self and no distinction known as the individual, but I am unsure how strongly I believe this because in my own writing, words and actions, I still find myself making these distinctions. For me, this is certainly an area that I need to work on and when I read your posts they make so much sense to me--you have a gift for explaining difficult concepts such as these. If you have any ideas to help me diminish the duality of thinking in my own mind (eg. meditations or exercises that worked for you), I would be greatly appreciative.

I enjoy your interaction every time you come here. As I said before, your well crafted questions and how you handle responses is a wonderful example to us all.

 

The path of Tao has oft-times in the past been referred to as Dao-De; it is the fusion of self-nature, De, and universal nature, Dao. If Dao is the trunk of the tree then De is the branch.

 

In terms of practices that have helped me personally in experiencing progress in the fusion of Dao-De, then I most certainly have to say Taijiquan.

[Lucky7Strikes]

@Lucky 7. The cultivation practise of doing good things/egoless behavior/compassion, and doing these kind of contemplations is not the same as what you are suggesting, which is some kind of ideal-Buddha-spontaneously always overbrimming with compassion. What I am talking about is the day to day practise that can help further ones spiritual attainment, the hard everyday decision stuff. Its best make this distinction and not confuse the two, because I find they are often confused by people who just read books on enlightenment and havent the experience, they talk about ideals and how high level people act, not having experience themselves. I am aware there is the energetic paths to acheive the high level purification that you mention, but this is not same issue as the sadhana that Birch Tree is talking about. This brings to mind why Durkhrod says talk is confusing. People visit these threads and their minds are on different pages, and we end up with such a mishmash of misplaced emphasis, misunderstandings, stuff taken of context, etc.

 

@Paradise,

 

I guess it is the difference between the path of action and non-action. The path of action can consciously guide one to clear the negative karma of the past, through conscious giving, visualizing compassion and sacrifice, or eradicating bad thoughts/intentions. If one does enter the path of non-action too early, mistaking it for the ultimate reality of sorts, he/she will simply have a "rougher" time letting those habits and past seeds play out, if he recklessly lets what be what be, like a dam suddenly broken without warning, the process will come gushing at him at an unbearable rate. There is the danger of falling into various traps of the ego that the body and the mind are not prepared for along these stages, the various bliss one experiences are indeed hindrances, one can easily cling to another entity.

 

It really depends on one's choice.

[baiqi]

@ Birch:

 

You know what? This question of a shen or soul or stuff surviving after death is a kind of tormenting question. And it shouldn't.

I used to have a few OBE, which means that consciousness can live independently from the physical body. But for how long? Hours for sure, but that's far from immortality...

 

All cultures have an idea of something after death. But we could argue that it is based on the fear of it and not from the facts. However some facts are true, in my opinion.

 

Ultimately I believe you have a chance to be one with the Dao after death. In which case, you are no longer here, nor your shen, soul or whatever. But it is real peace anyway.

[C T]

Exceedingly good thread. Thank you BT, for the time and thoughtfulness in setting this, and thumbs up to all those who responded just as thoughtfully. I enjoyed the insights very much. All pretty valid stuff. Cheers!

[~jK~]

Hello friends,

I would welcome your thoughts on a couple of things that I have been thinking about. First of all, I have been reading selections of the Pali Canon (an English translation). At any rate, I have been struck by a couple of things as I have been reading.

Peace and thanks,

Birch Tree

 

Hi B/T,

 

I look to see where the master got the beginning and pretty much copy it.

Many have defined what The Buddha did.

What I can see is that:

Buddha meditated.

So - I meditate.

It works.

In Buddhas day there was no real sharing of information.

It feels like being in a mind candy shop for meditation.

[3bob]

Imo Mr. Jiddu Krishnamurti benefitted a great deal (!) from that which he later deposited ungrateful poops upon; thus shame on him for doing such regardless of the gems that sometimes popped out of his mouth. In other words his strongly professed anti-ness towards various ways and people who had helped him along really has nothing to do with spiritual teachings.

 

(like sinking or dismantling other peoples rafts while they are still using them - and since he did such to himself before he reached the shore he apparently figured it was ok and or right to advocate doing the same to others)

Edited March 13, 2010 by 3bob

[Birch Tree]

Thank you, my friends, for your responses. I am sorry that I have had to be away from this thread for several days now--that was not my intention but rather I was called away unexpectedly but should have a bit more time in the coming days to post more detailed responses.

 

As always, I sincerely appreciate the pearls of wisdom that you share with me. So many times you all have helped me on my spiritual journey and I am very grateful. Please accept my humble and sincere thanks for your responses, and I hope to respond on this thread in further detail in the next few days. I hope this is agreeable.

 

Sincerely,

 

Birch Tree

[Athanor]

Athanor:

Thanks for drawing the distinction between good and bad karma and the idea of getting rid of all karma. I have heard it both ways, but you have provided an excellent discussion of the difference between these and it is now much clearer to me why one might want to get rid of all karma altogether. Because of your unique perspective, I would like to ask whether or not you think the Taoist concept of "wu wei" is the same as what you are referring to when you say that you are living in the present?

No, it's not the same. When your mind dwells in the present, it is still filled with the present. When such mind guides your actions, your actions are filled with the present.

When you achieve wu wei, your mind is empty and your actions are driven by emptiness.

 

[C T]

No, it's not the same. When your mind dwells in the present, it is still filled with the present. When such mind guides your actions, your actions are filled with the present.

When you achieve wu wei, your mind is empty and your actions are driven by emptiness.

 

I understand 'Sunyata' to be the basis of all manifestations, so neither the past, future or present has any 'substance' in this regard. It seems that the lack of stability in the view of 'sunyata' is what drives people to become dissatisfied and become engrossed in matters pertaining to the 3 times. Once the view of 'sunyata' permeates the being, then all thoughts of wanting to emulate 'enlightenment' or be free of all the fetters, including disengaging oneself from the past, present and future, becomes quite irrelevant... and unnecessary.

 

I enjoy your insights very much Athanor. Thank you!