Pushups as conditioning

[SFJane]

Push ups. Does anyone include them in their training regimen and if so, why?

 

I got the idea of this thread from Mantis's running thread. I was checking out his link to the Navy Seal work out routine. As I was reading I saw a section on pushups, situps, dips and pullups.

 

I've done all different kinds of pushups over the years. I once trained to win a pushup and situp contest at a town rec center when I was like 10. We learn pushups in school during gym. We do them at summer camp. They do them in the military. Even Navy SEALS do them. I've cross trained in a variety of martial arts in the past like karate and taekwando and we did pushups in training as well.

 

Has anyone ever wondered....why?

 

I stopped doing pushups a long time ago but I tried to do one after reading the Navy Seal workout. I felt silly. It made no sense. At some point in my 20s I learned of an idea called, 'train the way you live'.

 

Most of my life I have done manual labor to make a living. I've been an ironworker, steelworker. I've worked in mass production and fabrication. I've done landscaping and demolition as well as construction. I've been in many fights. Not making any skill claims here, just stating a fact. I've been assaulted a ridiculous amount of times in my life especially as a child and teen.

 

In all the assault and battery situations I've defended myself in and in all the blue collar jobs I've ever done, there has never been a need for the strength training that pushups give you. Your pecs, deltoids, lats and triceps all perform a load bearing exercise in a certain range of motion along a horizontal plane in a prone position.

 

You try to fire off some fast punches after pushups and your arms feel slow, sluggish, like the tension that you've just built up is slowing down how fast your tissues can release power and speed in a punch. Maybe, from an fighting POV, the ability to deliver a bursty push from the upper body would be useful in defense or offense. I'd just assume push on someone with a relaxed force that connected the ground to my feet to my waist and back into my hands and get power by rapid open and closing of the Three Bends.

 

If you are going to hit someone, you practice hitting things. If you need power like in wrestling, to pick someone up and slam them, then you train a certain way. If you are training with weapons, the best training you can do is practice with that weapon. Your body grows weapon wielding muscles.

 

There does not seem to me to be pragmatic and useful intelligence behind the pushup as a conditioning exercise. If you are going to push a broom, shovel dirt, grind metal or otherwise work with earth moving, landscaping or metalworking there is no logic behind the pushup because the muscles and muscular power that pushups develop is not what is needed to do those kinds of jobs.

 

There is no fighting or labor activity that mimics what pushups build in you (that I can think of). Maybe breakdancing and sexual gymnastics or parkour or something might require the ability to forcefully heave your upper body from a prone horizontal position but other than that, I am at loss to understand the purpose of what pushups are good for. We all mindless obeyed the gym teacher at school when he or she said 'pushups now!' and blew her whistle but why were we doing them in the first place?

[Iyoiyo]

I hardly know where to start on this post, but let me start off with examining what a pushup accomplishes. During a pushup, lets just stick to the standard-ish kind for now, you push up from the ground using your shoulders, triceps, and chest while keeping your body straight and static (which requires back, core, and leg muscle), then you come back down to the initial position. Forearm muscles are also recruited to maintain stability throughout the motion. Pushups are widely regarded as an effective comprehensive exercise and enjoy even greater popularity since they require no equipment.

 

You say, "There is no fighting or labor activity that mimics what pushups build in you (that I can think of)." Perhaps you have not been thinking hard enough? Any action which involves pushing, like a push or a punch, will be improved by pushups. This is because the muscles you use to push things are developed by pushing on things, like in a pushup! It doesn't get much simpler than that. To this you say, "If you are going to hit someone, you practice hitting things." That's true, but that practice does not exclude other types of exercise. In fact, purely punching things for exercise is a good way to hurt yourself. There's a good reason that boxers don't do it. The three bows (that's what we call them in my school) are a good source of pushing power of course. But somebody with upper body strength and the bows together will be more capable than someone using just one or the other.

 

There's a reason that martial artists and armies across the globe perform pushups. And no, it's not because they're stupid, it's because pushups are effective. True, after doing a lot of pushups one will find it hard to throw fast punches. But nobody does pushups before a fight, they do them to make the muscles tired on purpose . . . so that they'll be less tired performing similar actions in the future. That's what exercise is for, in a narrow definition anyway.

 

Even if, somehow, all the things I've said so far are completely wrong, there are still reasons to do pushups. One does not exercise only specific muscles. Why? Because that creates imbalance. Body strength must be in balance with itself to maintain optimum health. The consequences of muscular imbalance include joint tension and poor posture, which in turn can lead to more severe injuries later in life.

 

So, that was that, I hope it was somewhat informative.

[Sloppy Zhang]

How are you doing your push up?

 

If you do a push up to focus on your tricep, your punching power will increase greatly. When I did karate, and also wing chun, our knuckle push ups were done to focus on triceps. Then I got a set of push up bars, they dramatically increased my range of motion and again I used them to focus on the tricep area.

 

Sufficed to say, after just a few weeks my triceps got much bigger, and my punching power went way up.

 

So.... I do push ups because they work. Now if you are in a manual labor job that involves moving in a variety of ways with various heavy things well.... you already got your workout. As long as you vary the types of push ups you do, and gets as many muscle groups as possible, they are good.

[Uncle Screwtape]

Whenever I have worked out it was for no specific purpose in mind except to improve my general fitness.

[buscon]

Push ups are definitively a great way to condition your body without weights. Every fisical training like kung fu has them for sure.

 

Then I got a set of push up bars, they dramatically increased my range of motion and again I used them to focus on the tricep area.

 

 

Do Push up bars really worth more than normal push ups ?

I'm still doing every kind of push up but never tried with this tool...

[fizix]

Your foundation of logic has a fundamental fallacy, that the range or degree of motion of an exercise such as push ups only benefits activities with the same parallel of motion/location of the body/muscles (prone horizontal). Why do push ups? For one, they build muscle, albeit an isolated set of muscles, that is universally applicable in any strength enduring feats. Why do sit ups OR push ups if one couldn't imagine a scenario in which the exact degrees of motion would be needfully replicated? Because the increased density of muscle mass/fibers from said conditioning will assist in, again, any feat requiring strength utilized from the utilized muscle areas. Push ups, even situps will help with pull ups, pull ups can help with leg raises, all of which will help with moving/lifting heavy objects, saving oneself or another from being unable to life up over a cliff, defending oneself from a heavy brute force attacker, etc, all worthy benefits imo. Range of motion necessity is psychological, if not totally irrelevant.

[Baguakid]

Training Bagua IMO would be much better than pushups.

[mantis]

Push ups and Pull ups in my opinion are all you need for upper body strength and I have seen them involved in most systems of physical exercise and or culture. The important thing is to balance Push ups with rows, which can be done with a broomstick between two chairs. This is to prevent muscle imbalance which could eventually lead to injury.

[Mal]

[Sloppy Zhang]

Do Push up bars really worth more than normal push ups ?

I'm still doing every kind of push up but never tried with this tool...

 

YES!

 

I used to hate doing pushups, they were hard. Sure, I was sort of out of shape, but doing push ups was really hard. Then I got some push up bars. Push ups were still really hard. It was annoying to do them. Then one day I tried some regular push ups.... my chest slammed against the ground and pushed up so hard my hands left the ground it felt like I was only doing half a push up. A normal push up seemed like nothing.

 

I also noticed a significant increase in my strength, as well as visible muscle tone

[thelerner]

Push ups start as a strength exercise and when done faithfully become an endurance one. There is probably no upper body exercise that can be done as conveniently that hits so much of the muscular system. Gymnasts love them and that says a lot.

 

I think it develops 'usable' muscular strength better then weights, particularly if you take convenience into the picture.

 

 

Michael

[Taomeow]

It is my impression that they add to the external image of strength, which is why they are popular, but take away from flexibility and pliability of the very muscles they create. People who do many push-ups look strong and stiff in the upper body to my taiji-conditioned eye, which actually translates into "weak" skill-wise. When I used to do TKD I had a sparring partner for a while who would show up early and start the warm-up by doing push-ups (not part of the TKD warm-up routine, his own preference). He was intimidatingly huge and half my age, and would probably demolish me with one punch if he ever managed to reach me -- which he never could, I could literally see "brakes" all over his muscles and could run circles around him while a punch was trying to get through all that tightness.

 

My taiji teacher strikes like a cobra -- you don't have the eye-brain machinery to see it coming and it's already come to pass -- and he never once mentioned push-ups... ever.

[MBZ]

It is my impression that they add to the external image of strength, which is why they are popular, but take away from flexibility and pliability of the very muscles they create. People who do many push-ups look strong and stiff in the upper body to my taiji-conditioned eye, which actually translates into "weak" skill-wise. When I used to do TKD I had a sparring partner for a while who would show up early and start the warm-up by doing push-ups (not part of the TKD warm-up routine, his own preference). He was intimidatingly huge and half my age, and would probably demolish me with one punch if he ever managed to reach me -- which he never could, I could literally see "brakes" all over his muscles and could run circles around him while a punch was trying to get through all that tightness.

 

My taiji teacher strikes like a cobra -- you don't have the eye-brain machinery to see it coming and it's already come to pass -- and he never once mentioned push-ups... ever.

Push ups are an upper body strength and endurance exercise and that transfers over positively into just about everything the human body does, including Tai Chi, period.

 

BLESSINGS!!!

[David Yeh]

Here's a question: Are pushups part of standard traditional martial arts training (the classical Chinese, Japanese, etc. forms)? If not, why not?

[thelerner]

. repeat whoops

Edited March 11, 2010 by thelerner

[Old Man Contradiction]

Push ups were and still are essential to my martial arts training. Besides the obvious benefits of increased strength and mass (within a reasonable degree, mass does improve your ability to generate power. Whereas the unreasonable degree of body building diminishes that ability), there are a lot of overlooked benefits.

 

One main benefit, which I believe is why it is used in some IMA schools, is because it teaches you how to connect up your lower and upper body. When your arms have given out, you recruit bigger muscle groups to do the pushing. This ability to recruit technically abnormal muscle groups to do simple tasks is a necessity in tai chi, hsing-i, and pakua. Push ups are a simple way to build strength and connect the body like that.

 

Push ups not only teach me to use the rest of my body to move my arms, but if done before my training they encourage me to relax my arms more, while using the body. Do 200 push ups in 5-10 minutes, going to failure every set(not recommended by some methods[GTG], all of which I use at different times). You will find that your arms are extremely relaxed after wards, and due to their tire, you will want to use your body more. Don't forget to breathe and stay relaxed. Sung-gunn is to be applied in pushups. Relax without becoming dead muscle, work hard without creating tension. The practice is universal and can be done anywhere, from push ups to sitting at a desk.

 

And in the end, let's not be blind and look at the fact that in the end, it is your muscles and tendons that are working. Do everything that you can to maximize your body's potential.

 

PS. It is up to the practitioner to let push ups create tension or not. Like any other movement, this relaxation and tension are both controlled.

Edited March 11, 2010 by Old Man Contradiction

[Taomeow]

Push ups are an upper body strength and endurance exercise and that transfers over positively into just about everything the human body does, including Tai Chi, period.

 

BLESSINGS!!!

How about addressing my actual argument though -- "stiffness?" I've seen bodybuilders who are unable to quite turn their heads far enough back to look behind them, e.g. in traffic so as to check for the cars not seen in the mirrors. Or even shrug their shoulders.

 

Shrug... blessings back!

[mantis]

While I can see your argument I think it's taken to an extreme. I don't practice Tai Chi so I can't really tell if someone is stiff or not, but doing Push ups will never give you the mass that even the lowest level bodybuilder has. Even then, though, I think that a lot of people give that assumption to people who are bodybuilders (I mean professionals, not weekend warriors).

 

Look at Mariusz for example, worlds strongest man, in Dancing with the Stars

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNcGY7K0ilA

 

Granted he isn't doing anything out of the ordinary but I'm sure even ordinary things become difficult when you're 300lbs, with most of that weight being muscle mass.

 

Even ordinary people who do not exercise and do not stretch will become stiff, I suppose. I had troubles with Push ups and my rotator cuffs originally but that was because a muscle balance I created, which as I said can be treated by balancing Push ups with Rows.

Edited March 11, 2010 by mantis

[gendao]

Gymnasts love them and that says a lot.

Actually, I've taken a gymnastics tumbling class before and we never did push ups.

 

I remember doing back bridges, leg stretches, I think the splits & you could also try to hold a handstand in place, if you could.

These were more warm-ups than strength training though. That was unnecessary. Your muscles would get appropriately trained from just doing the tumbling and stuff alone.

 

I also took a Shaolin kung fu class once. Remember doing squat jumps & high kicks, but never push ups though..

 

 

Reality is also that pushing is not used a whole lot in daily tasks. For example, digging a hole, chopping wood, carrying water, etc. It's more lifting, pulling & hand-gripping movements that wear out your forearms first.

[mantis]

This guy studied under Ip Man

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-c4NZqejXg

[Mal]

Here's a question: Are pushups part of standard traditional martial arts training (the classical Chinese, Japanese, etc. forms)? If not, why not?

 

In Tong Long, a traditional Shaolin art, we have a tiger push up. This link gives an idea although we have less leg spread and elbows tucked in a bit more. Pretty much a combat conditioning Hindu push up We don't do them in class though, Sifu likes to say "No need to waste class time doing that. You pay to learn technique. Easy to practice that at home."

 

I haven't encountered "strong yet stiff" in people doing body weight exercises. But the only really strong ones I can recall (i.e. they had that gym junkie/body build shape ) came from long term yoga and jujitsu. But I feel "strong yet stiff" almost all the time in people who got their muscular look from weights and begin those activities or kung fu. Very little range of motion and way to much agonist and antagonist muscle tension. So I wonder it Taomeows push up person also trained body building style weights. I should note I have respect for weightlifting, my dad won a state champion as a teenager. I use to try big lifts like squats, dead lifts, clean and jerks, but too much hard work required to train them, I like being lazy.

 

I still remember my jutisu teacher showing us some guard work saying "No point practicing this unless you can do 50 situps" I would agree, 1/2 way through class I couldn't even attempt the move anymore, could not crunch myself up off the floor

[Yuen Biao]

I agree with most here that press-ups are a good thing; it's all a matter of balance after all. I vary the press-ups from ones to work the triceps as 'Sloppy Zhang' mentions and also wider to work across the front of the chest. Hindu press-ups are the best though.

 

I also know someone who trains just a physical way and I can see the tension in their body and their heavyness when they walk; it's certainly not a good thing. Balance is the key.

 

Press-ups will greatly improve your striking power in my opinion.

[mantis]

I wonder if SFJane found any of these replies to be worthwhile, hmm.

[balance.]

[Taomeow]

All right, I'm converted. Got myself a pair of push-up bars. These shouldn't create the stiffness problem, because they can be positioned every which way to make sure no group of muscles is getting a free ride at the expense of the overworked other group. And the bummer wrists position of the regular push-up is successfully eliminated by these. (The kung fu guy in the video who is doing this pushing with his fists knows what he's doing -- the non-twisting of the wrists is to push-ups what the non-twisting of the knees is to taiji.) Now I'm going against my own religion with these. Thanks a lot! -- but I have grown very lazy in my upper body (you know how the classics say "in taiji there's no arms?" -- I think I've been taking this a bit too literally, time to do something different...)