Looking For Meaning

[Sahaj Nath]

[Mal]

 

"No aims; no expectations."

 

DAININ KATAGIRI On how to attain perfect meditation.

[Marblehead]

Hi Hundun,

 

I am in basic agreement.

 

When we strive for a goal during meditation we are defeating our own purpose in meditating.

 

Meditation should be like giving a shower to your mind, washing out all the dirt that has gathered in the past.

 

I agree too that meditation does not require rites and rituals. It can be done while walking in the park or wherever or whatever.

 

I also meditate when I have been involved in many different events that have caused confusion. It helps me regain my center.

 

Peace & Love!

[de_paradise]

Agreed that often people expect something from meditation like improved eyesight or erasing bad memories, and thats the wrong approach.

 

But I find this guy wishy washy on the other hand, like new agers who tell you to "just be", just be in the now man. They dont appreciate that mediation is technology and working with energies, there are many forms, most of them with nothing to do with fully engaging the moment of exterior life, its serious business. Its people like Hagen that lead people astray by blurring the boundaries between doing nothing and actively meditating. Now we have the situation where many spiritually inclined people believing that meditating in earnest, with effort, is the wrong way to go.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

My understanding is that Meditation is the practice of 'stilling the mind', from which Clarity emerges.. if the mind is engaged, it is doing something other than Meditation.. One of the most profound benefits of Taiji, practiced as 'Meditation in Motion', is training ourselves to engage the 'movements of Life' with Clarity.. Clarity reveals what 'is', rather than what we 'think', or what others have conditioned us to think.. Clarity is a beautiful simplicity, profound in its application to Living Well..

 

Be well..

[Birch]

Well, there has to be a benefit announced, otherwise who would do it? In some cases actually go through so much "again"? Although I now consider it to be the "real" only time I go through because before I wasn't. In fact part of me exists only to avoid the very experience of living! But that maybe doesn't sound as clear as I would like it to sound. I love meanings and I love having them drop off because sometimes they are useless and ugly, especially the beautiful ones. I wrote the last part to show off a little And I still need to contemplate it. Drop it off itself. If that's not clear then I can try better to explain later.

[Trogdorf]

Not unless we are looking for the meaning of frustration!

[Taomeow]

I've always thought of meditation as either a tool, an ally, or a method of transportation (or all of these) -- what shamans call a "horse." Rhythmic drumbeat, e.g., is a "horse." Chanting is a "horse." And so on.

 

When I use scissors, a tool, I don't focus on the scissors but I don't ignore them either -- why cut a finger?.. I focus on what I'm cutting, but loosely -- why cut a jagged, tense, sloppy cut? -- and hold the tool in my peripheral awareness (my fingers are aware of it even if my eyes and my mind are on something else), and don't run ahead of myself toward the final product I'm going to make -- I am busy cutting what I'm cutting right now, but my greater awareness also knows what it is I'm doing this for, of course. So it remembers, although peripherally at the moment of the actual here-now cut, not only that I'm using the scissors but also what it is I'm using them for -- to wit, that I intend to make a pair of cloth taiji shoes in the traditional Chinese style. The scissors are my mediation, what is being used toward this goal, and also my skill, what I've learned to use and how, and also my natural ability -- I naturally have fingers suitable for applying to many different tools -- and also something mystical (how a cut separates what was whole following my intent to unite the parts into a new and different whole is mysterious enough, isn't it?.. Chopping wood, carrying water! Supernatural!)

 

"Meditation" has the same root as "medium," "intermediate," "mediator," "immediate," "middle," and so on. It's all of these things just like the scissors are when used as my "medium" -- they "mediate" what I'm doing, they are "in the middle" of my endeavor, or I'm "in the middle" of using them, they are "immediate" to what I'm doing, and so on.

 

So I don't focus on the scissors and don't ignore them -- "the middle way" -- I use them as an "intermediary" between what I am, what I have, and what I am trying to accomplish.

 

Likewise, if I'm driving a car, I'm not focusing on the car and not ignoring it either. Again, the car is my meditation -- I use it to get where I intend to go, but I don't use it for the sake of using it. Grown-ups normally don't. Kids who have just started driving drive for driving's sake. Meditators who meditate for meditation's sake are such kids, they are learning what meditation is like, what meditation is for, and once they start getting it, that's when meditation may start turning into what it really is -- a tool, an ally, a means of transportation, or all of these. Before this happens, there's nothing wrong with "learning to drive" or "learning to use sharp objects" for that matter -- but once you've learned, you're not going to cut things just for the hell of it nor drive just for the hell of it. You're going to make something with your tool, and you're going to try to get somewhere with your "horse."

 

"Just being there" is the learning stage. Meditation needs to be learned before one actually uses it. How and what for is only limited by the nature and quality of one's meditation -- a horse won't fetch a stick for you, you need a dog for this... nor will he catch mice, you need a cat... nor will he be in good health if you feed him spiritual fables instead of oats... so "appropriate use" of appropriate tools, allies, and means of transportation is the next learning stage. Which meditation? How? And what for?

 

That's the stage when you need a good teacher... because in the spiritual realm, it's not always easy for a lay meditator to tell a horse from a cat, strangely enough.

[三江源]

[Marblehead]

Hi All,

 

After reading De_paradise's post I feel the need to add an additional comment.

 

I draw a distinct line between the concepts of meditation and self-hypnosis (auto-suggestion).

 

I agree with Tzujanli in that meditation, in my opinion, is use for clarity of mind.

 

Self-hypnosis, on the other hand, has specific goals. We are training ourself to be of some sort of mindedness.

 

Many people who say they are meditating are actually playing with self-hypnosis and auto-suggestion.

 

Peace & Love!

[Iyoiyo]

I was really glad to see this post, it's an easy idea to lose sight of.

[Sunya]

Gah.

 

This adresses beginners who have a too utilitarian right brain approach. : 'I want to meditate so I feel less annoyed with my ex wife'

 

It's telling them not to be so rigid in their expectations, meditation doesnt deliver on demand.

 

Apart from that, it is a misleading point of view. It's a good way to have no focus and get nowhere at all.

 

I disagree.

 

It's actually the more advanced way of meditating, rather then for beginners. It is the beginner approach to have goals of achieving this or that because this person is still caught in relative dualistic desires of I - i.e. the developmental way. But the mentioned other approach is referred to as the Direct path, and is the staple of paths like Zen, Dzogchen, and Advaita. Since awareness is always perfect, what is there to develop? Since you are that awareness, what is there to accomplish? Since awareness is not separate from activity, focus on what you are doing and relax. That's the direct path and it is very difficult. This can be taken the wrong way as, 'oh I'll just do whatever I want then and follow desires and thoughts aimlessly', that's the wrong approach and that's why I said it's difficult.

 

"It's a good way to have no focus and get nowhere at all."

 

That's the point Where is there to go?

 

Yes this is methodological, and I think a mixture of developmental and direct paths are in order. Both have dangers.. as mentioned direct path can be too difficult for most, but developmental can be even more dangerous because people get too caught up in the process. The mentality of 'I must enlighten myself' which is a strange concept since the I can't do anything. The I must ultimately surrender to the universe and that's what the Direct paths teach.

 

 

btw Hey Hundun... great to see you again

Edited March 13, 2010 by mikaelz

[Sahaj Nath]

great responses, everyone! and mikaelz, you already know i love you, bro!

 

 

i believe the author of the passage is attempting to redefine the conventional notion meditation and expand it from merely a technique that is practiced at x time every day. awareness is to be cultivated in every moment, not merely between 6 and 7am. faithfulness to every moment of our lives is how we LIVE meditation. at least that is what my zen folks believe.

 

and i believe that cultivated awareness provides the vast spaciousness/emptiness upon which all the other practices depend. so while it may be the foundation, one never really moves beyond this foundation, just as a tree never outgrows the earth. (maybe that's a silly analogy. whatevs.) LOL!

 

so in THAT light, maybe meditation would be the self, the driver, whereas the techniques employed would be the vehicle?

 

not trying to take a strong stance here. i want to keep it open in hopes of getting some more interesting responses.

Edited March 14, 2010 by Hundun

[Sloppy Zhang]

Well, redefining meditation is good, but it's also important to look at how people actually use it. You can define meditation as a better way to open a can of green beans but that won't necessarily change the way people use it

 

People like to attach meaning to stuff. And meditation, I don't think, is any exception.

 

So, I dunno, maybe trying to change a definition of meditation, or trying to tell people what it is, isn't as important as examining why people attach meaning to stuff in the first place.

[Sahaj Nath]

Well, redefining meditation is good, but it's also important to look at how people actually use it. You can define meditation as a better way to open a can of green beans but that won't necessarily change the way people use it

 

People like to attach meaning to stuff. And meditation, I don't think, is any exception.

 

So, I dunno, maybe trying to change a definition of meditation, or trying to tell people what it is, isn't as important as examining why people attach meaning to stuff in the first place.

 

fair enough, but let me clarify a little bit, just for the sake of discussion.

 

his definition of meditation-as-life (as i would put it) is not a new concept that he came up with. i first came upon it in Rinzai Zen practice, then later in Dzogchen. what Hagen is doing, i believe, is finding fault with how the average layperson relates to meditation as a means to some gross material end.

 

but otherwise, i totally hear where you're coming from.

[~jK~]

Hi All,

 

After reading De_paradise's post I feel the need to add an additional comment.

 

I draw a distinct line between the concepts of meditation and self-hypnosis (auto-suggestion).

 

I agree with Tzujanli in that meditation, in my opinion, is use for clarity of mind.

 

Self-hypnosis, on the other hand, has specific goals. We are training ourself to be of some sort of mindedness.

 

Many people who say they are meditating are actually playing with self-hypnosis and auto-suggestion.

Peace & Love!

 

Maybe yes -and maybe no- does it ride on which way doo your thoughts goo?

Self-hypnosis as self-hyphonating is a bit of a bite for me shallow minde.

Conscious or Dreaming, will it be in reality there only one way to be free!

Do I use hypnosis to teach empty mind needed or`s it only focus hokus pokus?

Say Either Way-Form must Follow Function! If you're to get standing junction.

[三江源]

Mikaelz, I do taoist practices. I have places to go!

 

 

As far as I'm concerned, this board is far from awash with advanced practioners of Advaita, Zen or Dzochen and so posting that quote here is akin to advocating introverted quietism and it is all too easy to sit in a dream like state and imagine you are meditating....

[Marblehead]

Maybe yes -and maybe no- does it ride on which way doo your thoughts goo?

Self-hypnosis as self-hyphonating is a bit of a bite for me shallow minde.

Conscious or Dreaming, will it be in reality there only one way to be free!

Do I use hypnosis to teach empty mind needed or`s it only focus hokus pokus?

Say Either Way-Form must Follow Function! If you're to get standing junction.

 

Yes, it all comes down to what works for the individual based upon what the individual is trying to accomplish.

 

But then, if we are not trying to accomplish anything then why bother?

 

Peace & Love!

[~jK~]

Yes, it all comes down to what works for the individual based upon what the individual is trying to accomplish.

But then, if we are not trying to accomplish anything then why bother?

Peace & Love!

Dang - you can see through my B/S...

 

To come back down to tera cota (~..~) I have been able to create a semi quiet mind with a borderline schizophrenic through suggestion techniques. The problem comes from a dependency forming on their part to a synthetic system. But at least there has now been a time when their mind was clear of all -even meds- and now they know what is on the other side -waiting for them.

Kinda like a carrot on a stick method used to lead a horse where you want them to go.

[markern]

Both perspectives is kinda right in my opinion. This article I think is very valuable in this discussion:

 

http://www.interactivebuddha.com/bullshit.shtml

[Marblehead]

Kinda like a carrot on a stick method used to lead a horse where you want them to go.

 

Yeah, schizophrenia is difficult to deal with without meds. The chemical imbalances in the brain are very unpredictable.

 

I would agree with you that auto-suggestion would help within limitations. Mindfulness would be very important here.

 

 

 

Both perspectives is kinda right in my opinion.

 

I agree Markern. Both provide us very useful functions.

 

Peace & Love!