Karma and Fate

[Lucky7Strikes]

Fate is your past Karmic residue.

 

But which reality will you choose?

 

Choose not to choose? Choosing is what creates Karma. You see...

 

Destiny is selflessness in action!

 

(Form isn't empty. Form is emptiness!)

 

Let the tide in! I will let the guests come and go. The guests come and go. Come and go. Shhhhhh....

 

Haha! Good night everyone! .

[Gerard]

Fate is your past Karmic residue.

 

But which reality will you choose?...

 

Only certain anchorites are able to control the volatile 'in-between' states of the death process, they are not simply thrown into their next rebirth by their karmic winds but rather, can control when and where they will be reborn. To attain such level you need to live a full-time spiritual life, live like a hermit and have extinguished all your karma.

 

A friend of mine found the skull of a lama in a night market in Hong Kong and he could still feel the "energy" of the deceased lama on it. Truly amazing.

Edited March 14, 2010 by durkhrod chogori

[Athanor]

Choose not to choose? Choosing is what creates Karma. You see...

This is incorrect. If you're hungry and you choose to eat, that doesn't create karma. If your appetite is huge and you decide to eat even when you're not hungry, that creates karma. But the reason for creating karma is not that you've made a choice - it's the attachment to the thing you've chosen.

[ralis]

This is incorrect. If you're hungry and you choose to eat, that doesn't create karma. If your appetite is huge and you decide to eat even when you're not hungry, that creates karma. But the reason for creating karma is not that you've made a choice - it's the attachment to the thing you've chosen.

 

Where do you get these ideas? Is there some book that precisely measures actions and indicates if there is a karmic consequence or not? I think such a book would be massive and impossible to carry around.

 

The belief in karma (cultural meme) creates fear, limitations and has caused massive suffering (India).

 

Does this belief in an absolute certainty i.e, karma make you feel secure?

 

 

 

ralis

Edited March 14, 2010 by ralis

[Birch]

I'd understood Fate to be things I can't change - like where I was born, the day and the time, my sex, eye colour, parental home / conditions into which I'm born, genetic heritage, the list can go on.

 

I'd understood Karma to be just "action" but that the term (I'd need help with the source) actually includes all kinds of stuff: acting, thinking, moving towards or away from something...

 

It's starting to suggest itself to me that Karma might be any "action" (and I'll include the short list above) that is disproportionate to the "real" conditions acted upon. The immediate net result would be an imbalance which would in turn effect the conditions, changing them, and so on ad nauseum.

 

I'm not educated about the terms, but it also reminds me of "wu-wei" - in the above case eating when full would not be wu-wei.

 

Some people also designate "good" and "bad" Karma - which would IMO lead into more of a discussion about morality.

[Lucky7Strikes]

This is incorrect. If you're hungry and you choose to eat, that doesn't create karma. If your appetite is huge and you decide to eat even when you're not hungry, that creates karma. But the reason for creating karma is not that you've made a choice - it's the attachment to the thing you've chosen.

Choices being made and making choices are two different things.

Edited March 14, 2010 by Lucky7Strikes

[Lucky7Strikes]

It's starting to suggest itself to me that Karma might be any "action" (and I'll include the short list above) that is disproportionate to the "real" conditions acted upon. The immediate net result would be an imbalance which would in turn effect the conditions, changing them, and so on ad nauseum.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean,

 

But the "real" condition, imo, is the duality of being and non-being by which existence arises. The false belief of "I" arises when a certain condition of being is seen as an inherent subject, such as the body, mind, and form, and the balance between being and non-being is lost.

 

The grasping of a separate entity as one who performs actions spontaneously creates a counter effect, a reaction, from the non-being, the "other." This is where conflicts arise, a "me" vs. the "other" syndrome.

 

Both being and non-being should be seen as empty and non-inherent (Ha! Those clever Buddhists!) and the Tao is immediately harmonized on its own accord, but the past Karmic seeds must play out, as balance must be restored.

 

But this is not to say that conscious practice is counter effective. Most practices, of the mind and body, are there to precisely "undo" the graspings of the mind and body. The contemplation of dependent origination is to cut all attachments of the mind and energetic practices alike are there to disentangle the physical form to its purist state. There's a Zen saying that goes "meet light with light, and darkness with dakrness, and water with water."

 

This is why it's crucial to not become attached to any of these practices or new states of being, then it is really counter effective as you are recreating new Karmic tendencies which can be more detrimental than before. So in my opinion, energetic practices should always go with non-dual insight practice.

Edited March 14, 2010 by Lucky7Strikes

[Lucky7Strikes]

Only certain anchorites are able to control the volatile 'in-between' states of the death process, they are not simply thrown into their next rebirth by their karmic winds but rather, can control when and where they will be reborn. To attain such level you need to live a full-time spiritual life, live like a hermit and have extinguished all your karma.

 

A friend of mine found the skull of a lama in a night market in Hong Kong and he could still feel the "energy" of the deceased lama on it. Truly amazing.

Yup. That ability does come when you've "cleaned your slate." But they do so fully aware that their choices will inevitably create further Karmic imprints. Hence it is a conscious sacrifice they make.

 

Truly amazing.

[Athanor]

Where do you get these ideas? Is there some book that precisely measures actions and indicates if there is a karmic consequence or not? I think such a book would be massive and impossible to carry around.

 

The belief in karma (cultural meme) creates fear, limitations and has caused massive suffering (India).

 

Does this belief in an absolute certainty i.e, karma make you feel secure?

 

ralis

Well, there is also no big book which tells you how much you should eat when you're hungry. Yet, you're always aware when to stop, aren't you?

I think you're trying to make fun of this because you mistake physical laws with human concepts. If the thing what we call karma exists, IF it exists, then it is a physical law, and it is working whether you write down its processes in a book or not. "Karma" is the name of the natural law which people tend to accept as real, however, it's most likely not more proven than the belief in universal fate - like a divine determination.

 

I read so many things about karma, of which some were contradictory to others, that I tried to figure out my own way to understand this. As far as I see, it's simply illogical and unnecessary to determine all choices as karmic deeds, for what you would do in this case is that you would simply define human behavior in another context. Yet, if you distinguish choices and deeds according to the underlying attachment as motivation, then you'll get a separated concept, and that can be called the concept of karma.

 

Belief in karma creates fear? Don't tell me you're one of those who don't believe in bacteria either... There are many-many things in life which can create fear and suffering. In fact, as Buddha taught us already 2500 years ago, life is suffering. However, he didn't say the reason of suffering is karma - he said the reason of suffering is craving, which means attachment.

 

I wouldn't say that karma makes me feel secure, just as I wouldn't say that gravitation or aerodynamics makes me feel secure...

 

Do you believe that there is no absolute certainty? And does your belief in an existence without absolute certainty make you feel secure?

 

I think when Heisenberg found the uncertainty principle and figured out that nothing is entirely sure in the universe, he didn't care whether it made him more secure or not. He was working to explore reality and nothing else. And I think we shouldn't do other either.

 

 

 

Choices being made and making choices are two different things.

You mean they're not the same because one is done and the other is in progress? So what? I don't see your point.

[Lucky7Strikes]

You mean they're not the same because one is done and the other is in progress? So what? I don't see your point.

No. One is done with attachment to a doer. The other is a process of undoing, a selfless manifestation.

[Athanor]

No. One is done with attachment to a doer. The other is a process of undoing, a selfless manifestation.

Isn't the choice you're making the one of which you will talk in the future as a choice which you've made? I don't remember learning in English class about a tense which denotes attachment. Oh well... I'm sure you know what I meant earlier.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Isn't the choice you're making the one of which you will talk in the future as a choice which you've made? I don't remember learning in English class about a tense which denotes attachment. Oh well... I'm sure you know what I meant earlier.

 

I'm speakin on anatta, you are speaking about grammar. oh well.

[Birch]

"the duality of being and non-being by which existence arises. The false belief of "I" arises when a certain condition of being is seen as an inherent subject, such as the body, mind, and form, and the balance between being and non-being is lost."

 

I've spent part of the afternoon on this last one and I didn't come up with anything much except more damn questions;-)Apologies in advance!

 

- "existence arises" - please help me by explaining this

- the condition of being seen as an inherent subject - how does that work?

- balance between being and non-being is lost -I thought that this was where "my" karma idea fitted nicely. Maybe (probably doesn't)

 

For about 40 minutes while thinking about your post I was quite annoyed and then taken with it. As follows: my existence arises thanks to duality - awesome! The entire universe is working so I can see myself, how very cool is that?

 

I didn't much get past the latter awesome part. Not yet. Let me swell around in it awhile

[Lucky7Strikes]

"the duality of being and non-being by which existence arises. The false belief of "I" arises when a certain condition of being is seen as an inherent subject, such as the body, mind, and form, and the balance between being and non-being is lost."

 

I've spent part of the afternoon on this last one and I didn't come up with anything much except more damn questions;-)Apologies in advance!

 

- "existence arises" - please help me by explaining this

- the condition of being seen as an inherent subject - how does that work?

- balance between being and non-being is lost -I thought that this was where "my" karma idea fitted nicely. Maybe (probably doesn't)

 

For about 40 minutes while thinking about your post I was quite annoyed and then taken with it. As follows: my existence arises thanks to duality - awesome! The entire universe is working so I can see myself, how very cool is that?

 

I didn't much get past the latter awesome part. Not yet. Let me swell around in it awhile

Existence can be said to have come about only when there is a conscious cognition of it. Yet there are points when consciousness ends and there is nothing. And this nothing is only known through the latter arising of being which perceives that past "nothing."

 

Being and non-being are always relative. When one is, then there is that which is not.

 

Condition of being, as I see it, can be your current body for example. You see yourself within the body experiencing something outside the body. The beingness is the body. The non-being, that which you are not, is seen as outside the body.

 

Of course these are all wrong discrimination, even the discrimination of being and non-being is ignorance. When I say balance of being and non-being, it is when the boundaries of both concepts disappear and one resides the the Middle Way, which is that there is no basis of assertion of either being or non-being.

 

Most of what I write is based on my own inquiry, and I do use a lot of Buddhist ideals. So I may easily be wrong tomorrow, these are just insights I happen to agree with at the moment.

[Athanor]

I'm speakin on anatta, you are speaking about grammar. oh well.

OK, I think I've had enough of this... if you don't want to explain what you mean then don't.

Don't be fractious if you express yourself briefly and someone (with another native language) doesn't understand what you mean.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

'Still the mind', what is observed is not influenced by 'concepts'.. i observe many concepts, very little Clarity..

 

Be well..

[Lucky7Strikes]

Greetings..

 

'Still the mind', what is observed is not influenced by 'concepts'.. i observe many concepts, very little Clarity..

 

Be well..

Your concepts do influence how you observe and so what you observe.

 

Concepts are to be met with concepts. Movement with movement.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Your concepts do influence how you observe and so what you observe.

The 'stilled mind' doesn't reference it's concepts.. it suspends the referencing process.. even when the referencing process is not suspended, it doesn't affect 'what' you observe, the Moon remains unaffected, but.. my interpretation of that observation will be affected..

 

Be well..

[Athanor]

Greetings..

 

 

The 'stilled mind' doesn't reference it's concepts.. it suspends the referencing process.. even when the referencing process is not suspended, it doesn't affect 'what' you observe, the Moon remains unaffected, but.. my interpretation of that observation will be affected..

 

Be well..

Qi follows awareness. Thus you affect whatever you observe, even if you suspend your referencing process. Don't go as far as the Moon, just look at your own life. You give your energy to the things you are aware of, the things you observe - and thus you affect them. You can't avoid this because it's the nature of qi.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Greetings..

 

 

The 'stilled mind' doesn't reference it's concepts.. it suspends the referencing process.. even when the referencing process is not suspended, it doesn't affect 'what' you observe, the Moon remains unaffected, but.. my interpretation of that observation will be affected..

 

Be well..

There is no Moon. Only Moon"ness".

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Qi follows awareness.

More appropriately: Yi (mind) leads Qi.. Qi doesn't 'follow', it is 'lead'.. if i don't lead it to influence, it won't..

 

Be well..

[Athanor]

Greetings..

 

 

More appropriately: Yi (mind) leads Qi.. Qi doesn't 'follow', it is 'lead'.. if i don't lead it to influence, it won't..

 

Be well..

OK, here I need some help. I didn't know that you could actually decide about this.

What makes the difference between the mind that is leading qi and the mind that is not leading qi? What do you do different in one case and in the other to accomplish different result in relation with qi?

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

What makes the difference between the mind that is leading qi and the mind that is not leading qi?

Intention...

 

Be well..

[Athanor]

Greetings..

 

 

Intention...

 

Be well..

So you say that my mind leads my qi if I intent to do that, but without intention qi doesn't follow my awareness?

I don't think that intention can be totally separated from observation. Even when you're merely observing and you don't intent to do anything specific, you still intent to observe that specific thing. However, intention might be the real key indeed...

 

Can you tell me how to intent to move qi? I mean what kind of mental image or whatever should be played in my mind to make qi behave in a certain way? In other words, what to do to guide qi? "Intend it" is a bit inadequate to me.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Hi Athanor: Suppose you ared hiding but are very focused on a 'surprise attack'.. your awareness and your 'attention' are clearly on the victim, but.. your 'intention'/Qi/action is concealed.. when the victim is 'in range' your 'intention'/ Qi/action is revealed.. this is a simple example, but very appropriate..

 

Be well..