The Kunlun Story

[Blue Dragon]

I have been a lurker on this forum for a long time now and have read through the various Kunlun threads, mostly with a passing interest. But today I got to see for myself how evil Max and Kunlun are how greedy and demonic Kunlun teachers are! lol

 

Two Kunlun facilitators, both advanced practitioners in their own right, drove for 2 hours to get to my place, just to teach one person (aka me) and they charged me a whopping $ 0. Can there be a better example of how bad one can get with this practice? Bad bad kunlun! This should give an idea of how nasty Kunlun practitioners can get ...

 

On a serious note, I have practiced Kriya, Hatha, Vinyasa, Mantra, Taiji, a dozen forms of Chi Kung and studied with the likes of Drunvalo to Glenn Morris, from Kathara to Kundalini Awakening. I even consider myself partially awakened and I state that here at the cost of sounding pompous. I have done a dozen Vipassana retreats in different styles (clearly the most useful practice I have found amongst the others I have dabbled with). But these two Kunlun guys blew me away today - not merely with their generosity and compassion, but with the sheer power of the transmission that was offered with nothing expected in return.

 

I have the Kunlun book for a while and I tried the exercise without much happening. Once the two K-dudes worked on me, it was like a surge gate opening and I could literally feel blockages dissolving. After a few moments of Red Phoenix, I got to a state of no-thought so quickly, I was amazed. I could only hope to get there with hours of Vipassana. I have always underplayed the energetic aspects of alchemy and relied on mind (or mind dissolving) based approaches such as advaita, vipassana or shikantaza but today’s session was a glowing example that the same state is possible through an energetic practice - Kunlun in this case. Max’s guidance and presence was felt at every instant but it is too special and personal to be shared on a forum.

 

After an hour of Kunlun, my mindfulness has sky rocketed in terms of degree of intensity and effortlessness and I am amazed at how profound this simple practice can be! I listened with attention what Max said in the interview the other day: So if you do it right in the Kunlun practice, the lower body is very warm, the heart is cool and the mind is empty - and here I am today living his statement in a few hours! There is a long way to go but the start has been fantastic beyond words.

 

To make a few things clear:

 

I am not associated with Max, his group or have any commercial interest.

I have not been told by any one the Kunlun teachers to write this review for them. In fact, I have been requested not to publish their names here.

With years of practice, I do not consider myself a newbie and a bliss junkie (of course others may disagree) and hence would like to believe that the review is objective and not coming from someone totally inexperienced or uninformed.

 

Why I write this here? Only one reason, to express my profound thanks to my two Kunlun teachers, one who I would like to call the Buddha-Christ (he even looks like one ) and other, Golden Dragon

 

And most of all, to say a big thank you to Max for this gift and all that he has done in the last three weeks. I would appreciate if folks who simply want to talk ill about Max or Kunlun stay out of this thread. I can only request for that, and I just did

Edited March 20, 2010 by Blue Dragon

[Guest paul walter]

On a serious note, I have practiced Kriya, Hatha, Vinyasa, Mantra, Taiji, a dozen forms of Chi Kung and studied with the likes of Drunvalo to Glenn Morris, from Kathara to Kundalini Awakening. I even consider myself partially awakened and I state that here at the cost of sounding pompous. I have done a dozen Vipassana retreats in different styles (clearly the most useful practice I have found amongst the others I have dabbled with).

 

 

Kunlun apart, sounds like you need a holiday from 'practices'. Paul.

[Blue Dragon]

Kunlun apart, sounds like you need a holiday from 'practices'. Paul.

 

I have to respectfully disagree. I have not stated that I have lumped all of these together or have switched from one to another like a bee. I believe each one of those have helped me get to where I am now and would not nothing to alter my journey so far. Anyway, thank you for your input whatever its worth is

[Guest paul walter]

I have to respectfully disagree. I have not stated that I have lumped all of these together or have switched from one to another like a bee. I believe each one of those have helped me get to where I am now and would not nothing to alter my journey so far. Anyway, thank you for your input whatever its worth is

 

 

Well a change is as good as a holiday for most. Paul.

[Sahaj Nath]

i'll be more interested in what you have to say a year from now.

 

 

there's a difference between attaining states of experience and ascending stages of development. but i'll just leave it at that.

 

you won't see me in this thread again. i promise.

 

 

i am happy for you and the inspiration you're feeling. your virtual dismissal of vipassana and your heavy focus on 'stuff' happening are big red flags for me, however.

[Blue Dragon]

After an hour of Kunlun, my mindfulness has sky rocketed in terms of degree of intensity and effortlessness and I am amazed at how profound this simple practice can be!

 

 

Does this indicate I have virtually or literally dismissed Vipassana? I would think not

 

I did expect the comment on "attachement" to phenomena, stuff, bliss etc. and thought I clarified on that aspect with sufficient clarity. Well, I have nothing more to say except that linearising levels of awakening or levels of so-called attainment is plain useless.

 

 

All over the place people seem to be trying to Take a Teacher Role in some uninvited manner with someone else which is nothing more than a Power play.

Some people seem almost desperate to jump up and down on someone else's perspective and make them wrong.

 

So often this is done In a stance of absolute truth, which I think is the supreme authoritarian position. It gets funnier when the people doing it are claiming an anti authoritarian or anti ego position and then just Blatantly tell someone they are stupid, have no Idea, are just believing delusions or are just strengthening their Ego's.

 

I sure hope this is not what my post sounds like lol! Just stating what I truly feel at this minute.

 

 

All in all, I've personally grown tired of the endless bashing on this forum. Not like I'm leaving...just saying,

 

is it doing us any good?

Edited March 20, 2010 by Blue Dragon

[markern]

Good to hear yu have found a practce that is working for you. I have long thought that Kunlun would be a very suitable suport practice for Vipassana and similar styles of meditations. I would like to later do KAP and Vipassana aong side each other as I belive KAP can add speed to Vipassana and also give more control over energetic procesess and my body and give more health, which is usefull. I also belive it can help me stay balanced and grounded and smooth out the insight cycles which aparaently can be a bit rough. If I were not planning on doing this I probably would go learn "Kunlun" from Jenny Lamb.

 

Can you say a bit about why you thought Vipassana was so effective compared to the other stuff? As for concentration states I have thought for some time that many methods migh be more effective than breath watching to get you into Jhana territory but once there the Vipassana tradition has so much detailed techniques for jumping from one Jhana to the next by manipulating the Jhana factors etc. that I think it has a big advantaged in moving from Jhana one upwards. But when talkingabou effectiveness I guess you probably were talking about insight meditation?

[Aetherous]

Cool!

[Sunya]

Can you say a bit about why you thought Vipassana was so effective compared to the other stuff? As for concentration states I have thought for some time that many methods migh be more effective than breath watching to get you into Jhana territory but once there the Vipassana tradition has so much detailed techniques for jumping from one Jhana to the next by manipulating the Jhana factors etc. that I think it has a big advantaged in moving from Jhana one upwards. But when talkingabou effectiveness I guess you probably were talking about insight meditation?

 

The purpose of Vipassana isn't concentrative states so of course other methods work better toward jhana. Vipassana you investigate all phenomena as it occurs to see if it has any self, permanency or satisfaction. Some concentrative ability is necessary though prior to doing Vipassana. Since Westerners in general are quite smart, Vipassana works very well for us since we live in our heads most of the time anyway

 

I think it's good you want to mix Vipassana with energy practices. I think all the negative dark night stuff that Daniel Ingram talks about can be minimized or even avoided entirely if one also practices Qi Gong. But all of it can also be avoided by pursuing the direct path of self inquiry; once you see that there is no-self, but rather just awareness -- who is there to suffer? This path though is quite difficult, so might not work for everyone. Whatever works for you is best.

Edited March 20, 2010 by mikaelz

[Sunya]

[That Guy]

Hello, since this is about kunlun, i asked on another thread about this video that was posted http://lamathunderbolt.com/largetrailer.htm

It says coming spring 2008, so is there a long documentary about this or what was coming spring 2008 was the book?

What happened in spring 2008? anyone know?

[ralis]

I have been told by eyewitnesses, that Max and Kan can turn transparent at will. Has anyone seen this phenomenon? Here is a photo on Max's site that is supposed to be Kan in a transparent state. It is the 6th photo from the right.

 

http://www.primordialalchemist.com/gallery/kunlun_photos.html

 

ralis

[That Guy]

that is an interesting photo.

real? I don't know, I hope so though

[Blue Dragon]

J I did Kunlun for a while, and did a retreat with Jenny who was Max's teacher. I did not get your results from Kunlun.

 

 

Not the same, I am intensely aware of Jenny's energies and approach. Her approach is of Chi Kung and Kunlun combined with RP is full-blown alchemy. I can't comment if Jenny's approach will take you to the same place at some point - but the places the two start are entirely different. As I wrote, transmission from Max's lineage really does something as I did not have the full-blown surge or the enhanced state of mindfulness a day before while doing the same Kunlun. The presence of ascended masters, who to me seem like some Taoist deities or Bodhisattvas (remember, Max says one finds their own true spiritual or heavenly guides through this practice) is undeniable.

 

 

As I stated before, every practice I have done before certainly has contributed to where I am today but Kunlun certainly deserves a huge credit as in within a few minutes I got what I didn't for decades. I dunno how to put it, but let's something similar to the touch of a prajna dakini that chakrasamvara tantra talks of? And is not the whole point accelerating your progress with the least amount of aggression (read fire path here lol)? I could do just Vipassana and some other Chi Kung like now for another dozen decades before getting here, but if I can get here faster with Kunlun, why not?

 

Again, Jenny's form is Qigong, this is so not Qigong. More complicated.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I have been told by eyewitnesses, that Max and Kan can turn transparent at will. Has anyone seen this phenomenon? Here is a photo on Max's site that is supposed to be Kan in a transparent state. It is the 6th photo from the right.

 

http://www.primordialalchemist.com/gallery/kunlun_photos.html

 

ralis

 

There's also a picture of a pregnant woman doing Kunlun, I wonder how the baby will turn out (snake baby???)

 

 

For the overall topic at hand.... hmm, interesting points on both sides.

 

Mikaelz made an interesting point about maybe Kunlun was awakening stuff that was already there due to previous practices. So in that sense, would Kunlun even be necessary? Or perhaps, if it weren't for the previous practices, would Kunlun have been as helpful?

 

I've come to think that everything that has ever happened in our lives has lead to the moment where we are right now. You might say "duh". But really, think about it. Someone can do Vipassana practice and not get much from it, do Kunlun, and feel great. But if it weren't for the previous practice, they wouldn't have all the results to see.

 

Then someone can do Kunlun, not think it was that great, move on to a Vipassana practice and find it to be the single greatest thing they've ever found in their lives- but if it weren't for Kunlun, they wouldn't have known what they were looking for.

 

So maybe each event was necessary for each person.....

[Taomeow]

Not the same, I am intensely aware of Jenny's energies and approach. Her approach is of Chi Kung and Kunlun combined with RP is full-blown alchemy.

 

Hear hear.

 

All alchemical practices I know are comprised of several different, sometimes opposite phases. Some forms of qigong might be used at stage one. Most people stay there and that's fine, alchemy is not a mass vocation. Enjoy the qigong and all its benefits, why not?

 

There's this kids' game, Operation, and then there's med school. Someone who can play Operation is not necessarily in training to become a surgeon. Someone enjoying "simple straightforward qigong" is not necessarily in practice to master alchemy. I've seen so many kids play Operation and then tell the real surgeon his stuff is too complicated, too weird, too this too that... why don't you keep it simple? Just like the instructions on the box tell you?..

 

Kids......of assorted biological ages.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Hear hear.

 

All alchemical practices I know are comprised of several different, sometimes opposite phases. Some forms of qigong might be used at stage one. Most people stay there and that's fine, alchemy is not a mass vocation. Enjoy the qigong and all its benefits, why not?

 

There's this kids' game, Operation, and then there's med school. Someone who can play Operation is not necessarily in training to become a surgeon. Someone enjoying "simple straightforward qigong" is not necessarily in practice to master alchemy. I've seen so many kids play Operation and then tell the real surgeon his stuff is too complicated, too weird, too this too that... why don't you keep it simple? Just like the instructions on the box tell you?..

 

Kids......of assorted biological ages.

 

So I should cancel the surgery I'm scheduled to perform tomorrow??? But I've played hundreds of hours of operation!

[Sahaj Nath]

Hear hear.

 

All alchemical practices I know are comprised of several different, sometimes opposite phases. Some forms of qigong might be used at stage one. Most people stay there and that's fine, alchemy is not a mass vocation. Enjoy the qigong and all its benefits, why not?

 

There's this kids' game, Operation, and then there's med school. Someone who can play Operation is not necessarily in training to become a surgeon. Someone enjoying "simple straightforward qigong" is not necessarily in practice to master alchemy. I've seen so many kids play Operation and then tell the real surgeon his stuff is too complicated, too weird, too this too that... why don't you keep it simple? Just like the instructions on the box tell you?..

 

Kids......of assorted biological ages.

 

DAMNIT!

 

sorry to break my promise. i said i wouldn't post in this thread again, but i've always admired & enjoyed taomeow's perspective on things, even when i've disagreed.

 

but this? this analogy of yours is beyond the pale. i'm shocked that you could say something so... irresponsible. that's the least inflammatory word that comes to mind in this instance.

 

i'm not gonna engage in a tit-for-tat, and i doubt that taomeow would, either. but to borrow from the analogy:

 

the greatest surgeons i've had the privilege of knowing in the east and in the west had one thing in common: they believed that, at the end of the day, everything that you needed was already there in the simple game of Operation.

 

i'll leave it there.

[Taomeow]

DAMNIT!

 

sorry to break my promise. i said i wouldn't post in this thread again, but i've always admired & enjoyed taomeow's perspective on things, even when i've disagreed.

 

but this? this analogy of yours is beyond the pale. i'm shocked that you could say something so... irresponsible. that's the least inflammatory word that comes to mind in this instance.

 

i'm not gonna engage in a tit-for-tat, and i doubt that taomeow would, either. but to borrow from the analogy:

 

the greatest surgeons i've had the privilege of knowing in the east and in the west had one thing in common: they believed that, at the end of the day, everything that you needed was already there in the simple game of Operation.

 

i'll leave it there.

 

Hundun,

 

I missed you!

 

Could you please tell me WHO they were, those greatest surgeons who told you that? 'cause I have my own list of "the greatest" and the greatest one of them all dislocated my ling in the course of surgery, because that's what was necessary to do in order to put it back where it belongs... and they most definitely don't teach this in the simple game of Operation, because its creators are separated from their own not-so-simple destiny by light years of denial, wishful thinking, and ignorance... I don't mean anyone personally of course. But I do know that the simplest things are the least available ones to us these days, after a few thousand years of screwing them up... so pretending they are just there for the taking is a nice game, but I'm not playing... sorry, don't waste your marbles on me.

[Blue Dragon]

A lot of what I want to say has already been said and in ways I can never hope to express myself so well. For someone who has gone through a lot of grind and studied alchemy from different cultures with as much seriousness and urgency as one's hair on fire, I sure can "read" and "understand" what is being said below in a whole new light after "knowing" Kunlun.

 

 

Now what kunlun does first, before it does anything else, is it hits those formations (which sometimes manifest as leg shaking and sometimes as "entities," depending on what kind of stuff has gone into making them to begin with) and unblocks and releases them. For most, the first stages are not alchemical and that's great, because alchemy in a contaminated system is hell's kitchen.

 

Kunlun doesn't transform jing to qi to shen, it goes in the opposite direction. Shen to qi to jing to --?.. "void" some say, but if you're at the jing level, you have choices. Jing level is the great switchboard, you go where you want if you master that. And I'm not sure that "void" is where "everyone" wants to go. Laozi, e.g., went to the celestial realm instead, and so did countless tianzun (deities and immortals of taoism).

 

 

Kunlun puts one in touch with one's own DNA, for starters. What one will find there depends on who he or she is. Most of it is uncharted territory for science (they call what they don't understand about it "junk DNA," which makes for an interesting "scientific" picture of the bulk of who we are being comprised of "junk" -- their name for "incomprehensible!"), but the same territory is well charted in many symbolic ways by many traditions, and the "reptile," the Cosmic Serpent therein, is a great divine mystery, not the biblical pest we all know and fear.

 

I do have a taoist altar, but the god of fire wants to live in the stove. On the altar I have gods who wanted to be there. (Including two buddhist deities, one of which is represented by a statue sitting in full lotus holding hands in the Red Phoenix mudra exactly as taught by Max. This buddha, of superb quality, showed up at the thrift shop next door when I started practicing kunlun and RP. I had never seen one like him before, but after I bought the statue, I researched and found out that he's the Sevenfold Buddha actually, comprized of himself and seven others, a very important guy. Kunlun introduced us... )

 

I tried to run a theoretical idea of mine there regarding the energy of kunlun, and discovered at a very early stage that I simply don't have a common frame of reference with anyone.

 

Gopi Krishna defines kundalini energy as "evolutionary energy." Which is similar to the concept of "gong," as in, e.g., qi gong, far as I can tell. Kundalini or qi gong, we're facilitating our evolution by means of qi cultivation.

 

Now kunlun energy is something else and the stage I'm at clearly indicates to me that it isn't something that "is" but something that "does" and what it does is, it unblocks the energy of yi -- as in Yi Jing, aka the I Ching, the energy of irregular changes. (We are changed from our evolutionary blueprint, we are not what we would be if we were fully what we are... I don't mean "fully" as something metaphysical, I mean, as human beings. We aren't fully human due to irregular changes that happened to us and/or were perpetrated by us, or by someone/something else who molested our collective and/or individual destiny, or all of the above.) Which is different from regular changes of tao that are business-as-usual, the law and nature of tao-in-motion -- cyclic, seasonal, cosmic-seasonal (conception, growth, fruition, consummation in the grand scheme of things), eternal and so on. Yi of the Yi Jing refers to changes in the human being and the human society that are locally-irregular and at odds with the universally-regular changes. That's what the Yi Jing/I Ching navigates one's mind through, and that's what kunlun navigates one's body through before getting elsewhere. The energy of this elsewhere is the energy of tao-as-business-as-usual regular. (Or, to put it differently, meaningful at all times.) It is the energy of "what tao does," and it can't really be defined in terms of what it "is." It isn't an "is," is what it is.

 

So... kunlun will unblock the irregular changes that have occurred in someone, these will release tremendous energy, this energy will be gone, outta here, no need for the energy of repression anymore, thank you, let go, let's go elsewhere. Elsewhere... that's where things start getting interesting. The caveat of the quick-quick path being that people who aren't "elsewhere" AT ALL yet tend to jump the gun, believing they "already" are. Which may result in great confusion... a grand delusion...

 

I've been avoiding all "bottom up," upward-flow methods long before kunlun, and I will continue to avoid them. The reason has to do with timing, with the nature of our time.

 

It is an upward-mobile, hierarchical, pyramid-scheme kind of time. The mass at the bottom supporting the rulers at the top. The way to get anywhere is to "ascend," climb the corporate ladder or the spiritual one, in the general direction of some Father in Heaven or other. This is the time that has made Earth a servant to a "higher" master. The time when the body is imprisoned with the excuse that the spirit roams free. (Duh. Disembodied spirits roaming free have long been known as gui, hungry ghosts.) The time we talk to each other in a disembodied internet fashion exchanging things of the head, mind, spirit, higher cortical activity -- instead of shoulder to shoulder, face to face, whole earthly being to whole living, breathing presence. The time when as above so below means glorify everything above and marginalize everything below.

 

The time when upward-flow cultivation practices add to the overall imbalance, on the personal level and the universal level alike, by imitating the very upward drift that has already gone too far and has been going too far for too long and is not slowing down or stopping as we speak. The time of kali yuga, blowing things up from under everybody's collective feet, sending them flying upward... dispersing, demolishing, upward-driving the foundation of life.

 

The downward flow practices are the natural antidote. Which is one reason I've taken to kunlun like fish to water. It is in harmony with the needs of our time. There's many practices that are "whatever" that don't phase in the nature of the time they're being practiced in. But taoism is nothing if not a study of the nature of time. The color, flavor, shape, meaning, intent of the season... Overlook it and you will never choose a practice wisely... They're good practices all right, many of them, and great practices some of them, but their time may have passed or may not have come, however you look at it, which means they are lousy practices if practiced right now, during a wrong cosmic season, even though they may have been great two thousand years ago and will be great again two thousand years from now.

 

Not so with kunlun. This one is time-sensitive... and the imperative of the time is... invert that damn pyramid... and crush that obnoxious usurper at the top with all the weight of its downward, magnetic, magnificent flow.

 

I can barely type what I'm typing because most of my fingers are glued together with Crazy Glue on account of a tube thereof having exploded in my hands earlier tonight. This happened to me for the first time in my life, and will probably prevent me from practicing the Red Phoenix and the Golden Flower, with their relaxed hand mudras, for as long as it will take me to scrape the damn thing off. The reason I tried to open the tube to begin with is that I intended to glue my wristband ID from the Kunlun seminar, with its long wavy dragon (of the particular variety small enough and worm-like enough to hide in the folds of one's clothes), into my scrapbook.

 

Kunlun itself, after the Red Phoenix and the Golden Flower (no, not the one from the book by the same name, Max says, the book has nothing!) and Spirit Travel, started to the wild, mesmerizing, unexpected, almost inhuman Mongolian music. Oh, it was the best choice ever. Almost instantly, I was propelled into some past of my recurrent visions -- dreams? past life memories? genetic recall? fantasy? -- boundless steppe, smooth rhythmic speed, a view from atop a proud and dangerous horse, freedom, freedom, freedom. Everything in me rushed forward, in that direction, out and away from here and now, out of this time, out of this place, out of this modern me. "Looks like you're trying to give birth," Max commented. Yes -- to myself. I've once seen an ancient Native American statuette of the Moon Goddess giving birth to herself, she wasn't serene, she was raw with effort, teeth bared and clenched, features distorted, body convoluted... what do men know, I thought. How can you break into another dimension -- of spirit, creation, knowledge, freedom -- anything -- while just sitting there looking serene and peaceful like a buddha?.. Well, maybe later. Alchemy does get subtler, but don't try to make it subtle until it is ready. You always start with raw material, and that Mongolian tune, as devoid of all artificiality as the dawn of time, is my witness. So I let an irreverent thought pass -- "what do you know about birth you have to give to yourself, not everybody gets struck by lightning at the age of six, some of us get struck by an open palm of a very unenlightened being at that age, smack across the face, and this is something we have to remember and forget, remember and forget --" -- I lose the thought, lose the interest in thinking, and ride my wind horse into Genghis Khan's land.

 

The last segment on the second day, kunlun, started out with an outburst of laughter when Chris, in response to Max's request for Mongolian music, turned on a momentous blast of "yummy yummy yummy love in my tummy" instead. There it is again, breaking the habit of a solemn sitting -- why solemn? Strangely enough, after years of practicing this and that, the most difficult thing to master might prove this fine balance you want to strike between taking the practice seriously but not really, and taking yourself seriously but not really. Max asserts that if you take what you're doing too seriously, focus too intently, you will frown, and a frown locks the crown -- and a smile opens it. All right. Yummy, yummy, yummy... funny, really funny... then abruptly, the low guttural growl of the Mongolian singer, and the steppe looks very different today... I feel obstructed. Can't go forward, can't go back. Can't stay, can't go. Can't stay, can't go, the memory of -- oh, an early one, a very, very early one -- and my body knows what it's about. Go with it? Yeah. No choice by now. "Much better today," I hear Max comment. I don't care. I don't care what it looks like to an outside observer. When I go with a feeling, I go with a feeling, and if the feeling is can't go can't stay can't go can't stay, there's only one way to go with it:

 

on the floor, in the fetal position, from the symbolic "trying to give birth to myself" of yesterday to the real-life memory of trying to get born. I remember, everything in me remembers, and I'm alone and obstructed and fighting for my life in my every cell.

 

Max touches me and the coiled spring my body had turned into is released -- shoots out -- every cell trying to express its need. He says a few words, the right ones, the very words to say, the promise, the right kind of promise, I hope he delivers, I don't know yet. "What are you feeling?" he asks. I can't say it, I can't speak. Can't you read body language? I'm saying it, but not in words!.. "Say it..." I make an effort, I know I can only give a very feeble approximation with words -- "the thought enunciated is a lie," as a Russian poet put it. "I just want to be free," I finally manage to declare. I hear a few people laugh, I think Max is among them.

 

Kunlun is a bit of an upside down practice... it's very different from about 80% of qi gong and spiritual practices...

 

Most try to build.

 

You build a strong foundation, you correct your thoughts and intentions, you control your behaviours and emotions... you build and build and refine and build... the idea is to build a stairway up to 'heaven' (enlightenment, or whatever you might wish to call it).

 

Kunlun dismantles.

 

It does this by letting go. Letting everything go... letting 'letting go' go... letting thoughts go.... emotions go... everything that has been built needs to be let go of... Letting things go is difficult - all the things that you thought were 'you' - they need to go... all the things that you thought were important to you - they need to be let go of too... it's like a slippery slope and there's nothing to hold on to... can be quite alarming and can also be very blissful... So in Kunlun we dismantle everything until the underlying heaven just comes through. Kunlun is not the only path that achieves this through dismantling.

 

 

The point is - unlike some arts, Kunlun has a very immediate, palpable effect for most people - it's very very obvious... that's what I mean by 'unsubtle'. Rather than years spent on correct form and movement and theory to reach some desired end in the far future, the 'desired end' is tasted very quickly - within a few weeks.

 

The practice of K1 is formless - there is no 'correct' way of doing it. Of course there are pointers, hints and tips and so on, but there isn't any one correct way. The posture you learn in the book is used as a kind of telephone number to dial into your body and its ability to move spontaneously. When one meets Max there is another metaphorical phone number that is given. Nothing to do with theory or 'correct practice' or following some set-out formula.

 

http://www.appliedmeditation.org/Heart_Rhythm_Practice/meditation_types_of.shtml

 

This is not exactly accurate or true-to-the word but nevertheless take a peek... there could be some pearls of insight one could gather from there and apply elsewhere

Edited March 20, 2010 by Blue Dragon

[Aetherous]

Blue Dragon,

 

Were you attracted to this opportunity by the interview?

 

I think you would enjoy the additional training from Max when the time comes.

[Blue Dragon]

Blue Dragon,

 

Were you attracted to this opportunity by the interview?

 

I think you would enjoy the additional training from Max when the time comes.

 

 

Thanks for being supportive Scotty

 

I lurk around this forum mainly to read what a few folks have to say, like Taomeow, Zen Bear. When the initial Kunlun talk started on this forum, I ignored it for a long time assuming it was one of the many quick-quick hoaxes. That I consider myself "knowledgeable" in energy arts due to my Tibetan and Thera Buddhist and Yoga backgrounds contributed to this mindset lol!

 

And the interview was what really helped. Till date I have not known Max as a person or have heard/read "him". I have only heard and read how others interpret him and that did not pull me towards him or towards Kunlun so far. Taomeow's posts were what made me pay attention to the possibility that Kunlun could be "useful" in my journey, that lady knows what she is talking about and I can recognize that much. Anyhoo, then someone posted the link to interview on my facebook page and one sleepy night I listened to it. I heard it again and again and again, trying to read Mr. Max, trying to figure out his energy, trying to read the man and his words, trying to employ my yidams and constructions to "figure" the man out While being not a heart-centered person by any measure, the interview and the man kind of propelled me towards the heart and that was a big transformation. I tried to get in touch with the facilitators in my area and got no help. When I eventually decided to give it a go and forget about Kunlun, Max approached me (I don't know how to explain that without coming across as insane or crazy) and everything seemed to fall into place. For example, the Kunlun gathering got cancelled, my car broke down, one of the facilitators backed out, I couldn't get out of work as planned due to an unexpected presentation I had to give at the last minute, others who were supposed to attend the class dropped out .... but, as I wrote in my original post - everything fell into place, like it was meant to be... Visiting Max and training with him is certainly on my cards. Wait, let's say visiting him physically and training with him physically is what I mean

 

One of the guys expressed interest in learning Kunlun and for some reason never responded when we made plans to meet. After Kunlun, we went to grab a bite and there was this same guy sitting at a table across and eating away Chinese food with glorious abandonment. At that time, I could literally see Max there, smiling and saying so much . Some things, I guess are just meant to be. And Iam not infatuated with Max, impressed with his abilities or caught up with the "stuff", my very first Chi kung master made me experience all that and kicked me out of it as well

Edited March 21, 2010 by Blue Dragon

[Sahaj Nath]

Hundun,

 

I missed you!

 

 

it's been a while since i've been around, but i've really missed having regular dialogues with with folks like yourself. i mean that.

 

 

Could you please tell me WHO they were, those greatest surgeons who told you that?

 

for you, anything!

 

well, not everything. one person i mentioned in another thread, and that's David Allen Hulse. you'd be hard-pressed to find a more evolved master in the western esoteric traditions. i list him because he's someone you can actually google. he's an author, and his ciphers are broader and deeper than anything that has ever been publish. probably the most underrated magickian in the public sphere. but he's actually not public at all.

 

the other names wouldn't ring a bell. they're not public figures, never wrote books, never had large followings. what they could do, however, was know my internal condition at a glance, and even tell me stories of my own past & give me advice about the future. they could read and adjust my posture without ever looking at me or ever touching me. and one had a presence so strong that i would fall into spontaneous movement and cry & laugh when i got close to them. i can say that much. and i'm pretty sure you're know folks like this given some of your posts in the past. hell, you might even BE folks like this!

 

 

 

 

 

...and they most definitely don't teach this in the simple game of Operation, because its creators are separated from their own not-so-simple destiny by light years of denial, wishful thinking, and ignorance...

 

this is probably the main point of contention between us. there are a lot of assumptions in this statement about what can and cannot develop with the practice of qigong. maybe i was just really fortunate to meet who i've met, or maybe i was just born under the right star or something, but the evolution of my practice has been a process of realizing, not studying. what i needed to study was the foundation, the basics. but alchemy is a NATURAL process for which the body is designed. with right practice, it arises and makes itself known as IT needs to. we need only to avail ourselves to it. in other words, with right mind and right practice, there is very little within nature that needs to be taught.

 

 

 

...But I do know that the simplest things are the least available ones to us these days, after a few thousand years of screwing them up... so pretending they are just there for the taking is a nice game, but I'm not playing... sorry, don't waste your marbles on me.

 

in some ways, i am in agreement with this. the first statement, for instance. i guess my question to you would be WHAT do you think makes them unavailable to us? cuz i DO believe they are just there for the taking. my path has proven this to me, even in spite of my moments of ignorance, denial, and wishful thinking.

 

what i believe is that Real secrets are not secrets because they are hidden or withheld, but rather because the individual fails to see, or hear, or understand. but for THAT, it's ALL there for the taking.

 

i think i've been clear here, but i've been wrong about that before, so let me offer a really small example.

 

i was never taught reverse breathing when i first started practicing it. it's something that revealed itself to me in regular practice and i opened myself up to it. and even now i never practice reverse breathing unless it arises naturally. same thing with whole body breathing. and the orbits. and more.

 

F*&% the protocols of tradition. only the deaf & blind need them. but for those who can feel the dance and hear the music, it really is there for the taking.

 

i don't mean to be disrespectful in that last comment. that's just how i roll.

Edited March 21, 2010 by Hundun

[Birch]

Hey Hundun,

 

So do you consider ALL qi-gong as spontaneous? I'm leaning that way. In concrete terms I also found myself with practices (at least once or twice) that were different from what I'd started with via instruction. But as I've mentioned elsewhere my appreciation for "qi-gong" is getting to include so many things that I really wouldn't be surprised anymore ;-)

 

There's other stuff that I can't quite put my finger on enough to explain. Sort of like an awareness practice that drops away and kind of reverses things. Yeah, not such a great explanation

[Sahaj Nath]

Hey Hundun,

 

So do you consider ALL qi-gong as spontaneous? I'm leaning that way. In concrete terms I also found myself with practices (at least once or twice) that were different from what I'd started with via instruction. But as I've mentioned elsewhere my appreciation for "qi-gong" is getting to include so many things that I really wouldn't be surprised anymore ;-)

 

There's other stuff that I can't quite put my finger on enough to explain. Sort of like an awareness practice that drops away and kind of reverses things. Yeah, not such a great explanation

 

hey Kate,

 

well, when you say something like "ALL qigong," certainly there are exceptions, so i wouldn't say all. for instance, there are many static qigong and neigong practices that wouldn't readily qualify as having an innate spontaneous quality, at least not on the surface. however, those practices can still reveal and awaken energy lines & reservoirs & states of consciousness that the practitioner may do well to explore in spontaneous natural flow AFTERWARD. i practice a shaolin system called wei tuo qigong, for instance, and the movements & mental direction are very rigid & precise, not allowing for a whole lot of play or spontaneity, but AFTER i'm done with the form i'll pull down the heavens a few times, stand in wuji for a while, and just let my body go and bear witness to what arises. it's a beautiful thing.

 

but also, not all qigong practices are created equal. the trouble might be that not all practitioners are created equal, either. i've met one guy who a certified tai chi 'master' who believed that chi was just a state of relaxed focus and a sunken center of gravity. he'd been teaching for nearly 10 years, and yet his first conscious experience of qi-flow was during a session with me. i honestly didn't think that was even possible! this may be a 'western' issue, resulting from people living too much in their heads. but still, a certified master? seriously? *shrugs*

 

but as for what you're talking about, i would definitely say as a general rule that most qigong forms have space for some play and spontaneity. it's a beautiful thing to come to on your own, Kate. if you know you can hear the music, don't let anyone take that away from you.

 

i've only met one teacher to encourage me in that direction. he was as irreverent toward external structures and authorities as i am. he was also amazing. i don't remember if you were around when i went to one of max's seminars, but he wrote me a letter before i went that i wasn't to open until i returned from the workshop. the letter highlighted what he knew my experience would be, and he encouraged me to put even more faith in the master within. his letter was right-on, and it brought me to tears.

 

maybe not in this thread, but i would love to hear about your practice some time.