The B.K. Frantzis Thread

[Sloppy Zhang]

So still been doing some of B.K. Frantzis' stuff.

 

One thing that has started to happen to me is that I'm starting to remember old injuries, fights I've been in at my dojo, fights I got in in school. I remember once there was this kid who was like, "I know all these pressure points, they will put you down!" And I was like, "I don't believe in that stuff." So he tried them on me and none of them worked. But now I've gotten into qigong, learning about various meridians, and start to wonder, "did that kid screw me up back then?"

 

So anyone have any opinions on that?

 

Anyone have any other experiences they'd like to share about any of Bruce's methods?

[Mokona]

From the beginner perspective it is interesting and I'd like to become better at relaxing so more can happen on its own. I've just noticed a tendency to fall over in my seated position a bit, leaning forward when I really start to become relaxed. I felt like I was spinning last time that was happening, or at least something was spinning in my head. I'm only doing the basic technique of watching my breathing so I can eventually feel it through my nose, to my lower center and haven't moved any lower than my throat yet. Its been fun so far and I'm going to try it laying down on the hard floor for a bit to see where I can go when I really get relaxed!

[Sloppy Zhang]

Some new videos uploaded onto his channel:

 

 

Looks like he's lost a lot of weight. He's looking a lot younger than in some of his older videos.

[gendao]

When you inhale and exhale, various cavities and vessels as well as the spaces between joints are being modestly opened and then closed from breath pressure coming and going. To pulse, open or otherwise get some movement going into other parts of your body using your breath you follow your breathing with your mind into the part of your body that you want to deliberately open up.

What exactly does BKF mean when he talks about the joints "opening & closing?"

Normally, conventional physiology would say that joints can really only hinge open or hinge close (rotationally).

 

But does he instead mean that the spacing between the bones in the joints actually increases when they open? Or the energetic passageway through the joint opens? What does this feel like?

[Sloppy Zhang]

His website has been redone. Neat layout, and some good information on some of the practices:

 

http://www.energyarts.com/

[joeblast]

that's pretty freakin cool, thanks rv!!!

[寒月 Hanyue]

Bruce's use of the term "pulsing" he relates to open close (kai he), but it is not always the same as when others talk of open close.

 

You can open and close from the outside, or from the inside. Several xing yi and bagua people I have met have learned to open and close the joints in a 'mechanical' way, which is very strong. This is different to the Water method guys I've met who open and close the joints through the fluids in a 'hydraulic' way.

 

Bruce has said that breathing is related to open close, and breathing itself is of course an open and close. Yet I have also seen him dramatically empty all the air from his lungs, clamp a hand over his mouth and nose, and hold his breath while pulsing joints to show that the pulsing is not powered from the breath. So go figure? Bruce's pulsing works with the fluids of the body (synovial, blood, cerebro-spinal etc) it is very relaxing and can have a powerful affect on the body that is also quite subtle. The main idea is to become increasingly sensitive to the natural rhythms of the body.

 

Let me repeat that. The main idea is to become increasingly sensitive to the natural rhythms of the body. As such if you start to play with this, and start trying to make things 'pulse' according to consciously imposed rhythms, you may upset the natural rhythms from what they need to be, not so bad in the wrist, but the pelvis and spine mmm. Remember there are people who make a living out of fixing these rhythms in people! they are called cranio-sacral osteopaths and qigong tuina doctors!

 

In my opinion it is safest and best to learn to become aware of the natural sensations of pulsing that occur before you begin to play around with making the rhythm larger or anything else, yes this is harder and requires more sensitivity.

 

There are pro's and con's for either the outside or the inside being taught first. It is a circle though. Stick to 70% of capacity (if in doubt do less), I would say it is best to NOT PLAY with this unless you have a decent qigong teacher!

 

The following therefore is for educational purposes for those with a solid qigong/meditation background only Be aware that it is a basic overview and not the whole pie.

 

Bruce uses two things as vehicles to get the qi going in the body and to be able to feel qi. The nerves, and the bodies fluids. ALWAYS start with the wrist and the joints of the arm. GET THIS STABILISED FIRST, before playing with the legs let alone going near the pelvis or spine.

 

Pulsing outside to inside;

 

I have seen Bruce teach pulsing straight off the bat, but generally within his method learning to lengthen the tissues of the body comes first (yin tissues on the front, yang tissues on the back). Lengthening is NOT the same as stretching, it involves releasing the nerves to allow the lengthening of the tissues, not pulling the tissues further. If the tissues have no space, then there is going to be little space for the joints to be able to move.

 

With all kai he (open close) there is shu (pivot), listen for the changeover point and try to smooth it out and diminish it.

 

Now you've got some space, take the movement of the tissues and concentrate on the actual joints. Feel for the spaces and allow them to release open and to release closed. The partner exercises mentioned by RV are best to help you get a feel for this. Your partner should gently pulse your joint for you, in a slight circluar motion aiming to feel it releasing and smoothing out. Once familiar with this learn to take over from them so you begin to pulse the wrist joint and they do less and less.

 

Once you can pulse your wrist, make the sensation more and more subtle until there appears to be virtually no external movement, then expand it up again.

 

Inside to outside;

 

In the Water method pulsing is taught AFTER you have learned to feel and open the gates (it is taught as part of Heaven & Earth neigong it is expected that you know Energy Gates neigong). Sit in meditation. Put your awareness on your wrist, and feel the center of the joint, the energy gate. Feel for the natural pulsing (do not think about what it is that is actually pulsing, just feel the rhythm of it). Relax and allow your awareness of the sensations to become subtler and fuller. This in itself with no intention or effort will increase the strength of the pulsing. Once you have a clear feeling begin to release around the pulsing and to allow it to expand. Think of adding a LITTLE momentum to the rhythm that is there, not imposing your own rhythm.

 

Once you have a clear sensation of pulsing within the wrist joint, pay attention to laogung to open the palm of the hand, and then feel for all the spaces imbetween the bones of the hand and the joints of the fingers. If you have practised the 'physical' opneing and closing of the hand the more you relax you will find that this sensation begins to gently and subtley generate this movement with no intention.

 

Through practice of both, wai nei he yi, allow external and internal to harmonise as one.

 

Best,

[joeblast]

Good stuff...that vid reminds me of YMAA's Taiji Ball Qigong, that's also an excellent bunch of exercises.

[Creation]

His website has been redone. Neat layout, and some good information on some of the practices:

 

http://www.energyarts.com/

Oooooo, they have a FORUM now!

[SFJane]

What exactly does BKF mean when he talks about the joints "opening & closing?"

 

Normally, conventional physiology would say that joints can really only hinge open or hinge close

 

But does he instead mean that the spacing between the bones in the joints actually increases when they open? Or the energetic passageway through the joint opens? What does this feel like?

 

Sorry I missed the question when you posted it. Others have answered it pretty well though.

 

The mechanical action of the increasing space in-between your joints is opening. Decreasing it is closing. This is what you are opening and closing:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synovial_joint

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intervertebral_disc

[Tsunami_MAPUA]

Hello, I'm new to all this Taoist thingy and internal martial arts. I'm also fascinated by Kumar, and I can see myself doing Taoist Water Meditation as a spiritual journey to finally exorcise my inner demons and get rid of unnecessary suffering altogether.

 

So far, I'm reading his Taoist water meditation books. I'm in chapter 5 of The Great Stillness. (I'm reading to get an overview and roadmap of what I can effect to do and experience in my upcoming years or perhaps decades of practice.)

 

He said that the advanced method of volume 2 will only help clear the blockages up to the chi body. He mentioned in the foot note (p.131) that the dissolving techniques for the emotional body and those above it is beyond the scope of his book.

 

I wonder which direction should I go after I mastered the techniques of the two volumes. What are those practices?

 

Thanks for any reply.

[Jetsun]

As I understand the dissolving method in the book does the emotional body, there is a lot of talk of dissolving anger and your inner demons, the things he says he doesn't do in the books are dissolving the brain and there is a deeper spiritual level not discussed.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I'll have to go back and look at the books Tsunami, as I don't recall off the top of my head line by line.

 

My understanding is this:

 

Outer dissolving only works pretty only on the physical/chi body (I also got the impression that to some extent it will help on the emotional body, but I could be mistaken)

 

if you want to go beyond, you will have to use inner dissolving (emotional, mental, on up... or down or both yet neither )

 

That said inner dissolving can also be used on physical/chi bodies.

 

And then you can get fancy and do them both at the same time.

 

I think Bruce put a lot of information in those books, but he left it deceptively simple.

 

He mentioned at one point in the books that progression in the Water path is a "spiral," where you cover the same ground, but you do it at a deeper level. A beginner and advanced student and a master will all do the same techniques, but at different levels of refinement.

 

When you say something like "where should I go after I mastered the techniques in the book," what do you define as mastery?

 

In Opening the Energy Gates of the Body, he says that a master can open and close the energy gates of the body like you open and close your eye, and can even feel and open/close the energy gates of other people (a simple method of dissolving is mentioned in Vol1 and Vol2, and the Energy Gates book fills it out). Is THAT your marker for mastery?

 

When you talk about mastering stuff in the books, are you able to get into the mindstream (discussed at the end of Vol1) before doing sitting/standing/moving/lying down/interacting dissolving pracices (and by dissolving I mean doing inner/outer dissolving of first, say, 6 energy bodies)? I don't even have a conceptual understanding of what the mindstream is, and I read Relaxing Into Your Being for the first time years ago

 

So yeah, I think if you mastered, and I mean FULLY mastered what's in those books, as he presented them, yeah, you'll be pretty far ahead of most everybody else period.

 

On top of that, the breathing exercise he gives energizes the lower dantien as well as the belt meridian, which naturally will energize the vertical channels, including the MCO, but also NOT LIMITED to the MCO, so it's great for energizing and balance as well.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Sloppy Zhang

[Friend]

Edited August 17, 2013 by Friend

[spiraltao]

You will have a long time to chew on this 2 Volumes. Ask again in 15 Years.

One reach a point where the technique is selfimproving and one understand something new

by doing the same and it keep going.

 

The explaination of the methods are finite but the application

is near infinite but this also counts for other system and lineages.

One can improve but mastering is depending when the teacher

said he can not teach you anymore

and you start teaching yourself by the things you get teached.

 

This is still an urge that I deal with and.chewing too fast doesnt allow for correct digestion

 

[Tsunami_MAPUA]

@Sloppy Zhang

 

When you say something like "where should I go after I mastered the techniques in the book," what do you define as mastery?

I take it to mean that I have properly learned and used the techniques in the books - both these two volumes and Bruce's other books which I'll acquire soon - in such a way that I have outgrown them. So from there, either I find a great book on the more advanced topics that can teach me, or perhaps meet a genuine master who could skyrocket my practice.

 

I also have in mind the so-called rule of 10,000 hours of deep practice as found in books like Mastery by George Leonard, Talent Code by Daniel Coyle, and Mastery by Robert Greene.

 

 

In Opening the Energy Gates of the Body, he says that a master can open and close the energy gates of the body like you open and close your eye, and can even feel and open/close the energy gates of other people (a simple method of dissolving is mentioned in Vol1 and Vol2, and the Energy Gates book fills it out). Is THAT your marker for mastery?

I don't have that book yet, but perhaps that should be my marker for mastery with respect to this practice.

 

 

When you talk about mastering stuff in the books, are you able to get into the mindstream (discussed at the end of Vol1) before doing sitting/standing/moving/lying down/interacting dissolving pracices (and by dissolving I mean doing inner/outer dissolving of first, say, 6 energy bodies)? I don't even have a conceptual understanding of what the mindstream is, and I read Relaxing Into Your Being for the first time years ago []

Like I said in my post above, I'm new to Taoist meditation and BK Frantzis. (I've been exposed to other meditation methods, but they're so ad hoc and not systematic.

e.g. Just sit, close your eyes, and observe your breath.

Just sit, close your eyes and watch your thoughts, and ironically by observing thoughts as they come and go, you'll reach a point where your mind is blank.

 

Trataka: Just focus on an object. [exercise to improve concentration]

 

That's it. I found that the path presented by Bruce is like an adventure.

 

Anyway, I digress. What I've been doing thus far is read these two books. I tried a bit of Lesson 1 on Taoist Breathing.

I'm trying to finish reading Vol II to get the big picture. So far so good. After I finish reading The Great Stillness, I'll go all out and practice the lessons in Relaxing Into Your Being.

 

 

Again, thank you for your reply and well as everyone else's.

 

 

@Friend

 

You will have a long time to chew on this 2 Volumes. Ask again in 15 Years.

One reach a point where the technique is selfimproving and one understand something new

by doing the same and it keep going.

I don't mind if it takes 15 years or perhaps longer.

 

For the 25 years of my life, I felt I have suffered unnecessarily, but I suffered nonetheless. This led me to not fulfill a lot of my potential, suffered from clinical depression and at one point took antipsychotics. Perhaps, had I not been aware of some techniques on releasing emotions prior to discovering Bruce, I'd still be suffering as intensely as before. And maybe, just maybe, if I don't take this spiritual path, I would've killed myself many years before I reach 40.

[Friend]

Edited August 17, 2013 by Friend

[hydrogen]

I wonder which direction should I go after I mastered the techniques of the two volumes. What are those practices?

 

Thanks for any reply.

 

Qi Gong is Chinese Alchemy. After familiar with water method, I guess you need fire to melt the ice into water and boil the water to steam. (I don't know much about water method, I may have wrong view about it.)

 

The only book I know is the Secret of the Golden Flower. I highly recommend it.

 

The other is Kundalini Tantra by Swami Satyananda Saraswati. It's a treasure box.

Edited June 17, 2013 by hydrogen

[rex]

New online course:

 

The Five Keys to Taoist Energy Arts

[rex]

Another course:

 

Dragon & Tiger Online Course