Dokkodo

[Eric23]

Okay. I have spoke enough about Musashi. I voiced my opinion and others voiced theirs.

 

Heavy question. But first let me mention again that it has been a very long time since I read about all that stuff.

 

Yes. Jesus was a Jew. And yes, according to what I remember he was very displeased with the way the religion was being practiced. And yes, he had the right, IMO, to point this out. From the story about him going into the temple and over-turning the tables of the money lenders I would say that he did not say anything about turning the other cheek.

 

The point I would like to make is that his submitting to death put his teachings into the hands of others. To the best of my knowledge he, Jesus, never wrote anything regarding his teachings. Everything, in my understanding, was written by others. And it has been re-written and modified many times over.

 

Had he lived and had he written his thoughts and teachings then there would be substance to his life much greater, IMO, than there is now because, as you pointed out, what followed is centuries of distortion and what we see today.

 

So, by accepting death he chose to die rather than continue to fight. To my recall, all he was asked to do was to stop saying he was God of the Jews. He refused. God is dead.

 

Peace & Love!

 

According to the Old Testament, sin HAS TO be punished by death. The purpose of the temple was to offer animals as a sacrifice for the believer's sins. According to the New Testament and from Jesus' own words in the gospels, he stood in as a sacrifice for all believer's sins. From the standpoint of Christian theology, Jesus did not really have a choice, as the Son of God he had to be sacrificed.

 

Yes, Jesus was very upset with the way in which the Pharisses distorted the Old Testament laws and the operation of the temple. I have no doubt that he would be equally offended by the "fundamentalist" Christian church operating in the US today.

[Apech]

Yes. Jesus was a Jew. And yes, according to what I remember he was very displeased with the way the religion was being practiced. And yes, he had the right, IMO, to point this out. From the story about him going into the temple and over-turning the tables of the money lenders I would say that he did not say anything about turning the other cheek.

 

Turning the other cheek is misunderstood I think. It actually means volte face - turn around or turn away - so what he was saying was learn to walk away from a fight - otherwise you get a never ending cycle of retaliation and revenge which escalates. He wasn't saying offer up your other cheek to be hit.

 

With the money lenders - he was opposing hypocrisy - good thing for me I hate it too.

 

Not sure about his death - except to say its given a lot of people plenty to think about.

[3bob]

"Golden Being" souls are spoken of and in common to most or all of the peaceful and loving mystical/spiritual traditions, and Beings such as these have overcome death. (which to me, although in a different way also includes Taoism and certain spiritual/warrior traditons, for instance an account of the Gloden Being is given by the founder of Aikido) Further, to me Jesus is also one of those elder souls and more alive right now - as are the rest of them than we can hardly imagine.

 

Om, and forever thank you for your help Elder ones.

[z00se]

Nickname: Marblehead

 

Group: The Tao Bums

Posts: 3,808

Joined: 08-July 09

 

3800 / 8 months = 475 posts a month

475 / 4 weeks = 119 per week

... Wow. I can't read them all but the ones i read are pretty interesting.

 

I've got so much peace and love i don't know what to do with it all haha.

 

I know whats you're homepage

Edited March 26, 2010 by z00se

[Marblehead]

Marblehead: Right, that wasn't directed specifically at you, I was just generalizing.

 

This is off topic, but I'm curious-- did you sign up for the war, get drafted, or were you already in the armed forces when it began? You are lucky to come out with a good head on your shoulders (even if it is made of marble, heheh just kidding). I personally know a few Vietnam vets who served in different fields-- a weapons specialist, a cook, high command, and they all seem to have been warped by the experience.

 

I enlisted. But that was before the Vietman war. I had already decided to make the service my career before the war started. I never volunteered for service in the war because I thought the whole thing was rediculous. I was eventaully ordered to a tour there. Of course, I did my duty and perfomed as best I could.

 

Yes, I know that many were deeply effected during their service in Vietnam and sadly, they were not cared for after returning to the states.

 

I was really fortunate because that was the time of my life when I was going through a transition in my belief system and my mind and spirituality was in flux and totally flexible.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

I have no doubt that he would be equally offended by the "fundamentalist" Christian church operating in the US today.

 

 

Absolutely!!!!!

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Turning the other cheek is misunderstood I think. It actually means volte face - turn around or turn away - so what he was saying was learn to walk away from a fight - otherwise you get a never ending cycle of retaliation and revenge which escalates. He wasn't saying offer up your other cheek to be hit.

 

Yes. I think that is true. Avoidance is the best policy. To walk away from or avoid aggression is the best.

 

When I was young I once turned the other cheek. I ended up with two sore cheeks. Haven't done that again.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

"Golden Being" souls are spoken of and in common to most or all of the peaceful and loving mystical/spiritual traditions, and Beings such as these have overcome death. (which to me, although in a different way also includes Taoism and certain spiritual/warrior traditons, for instance an account of the Gloden Being is given by the founder of Aikido) Further, to me Jesus is also one of those elder souls ...

 

Totally agree up to this point.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Nickname: Marblehead

 

Group: The Tao Bums

Posts: 3,808

Joined: 08-July 09

 

3800 / 8 months = 475 posts a month

475 / 4 weeks = 119 per week

... Wow. I can't read them all but the ones i read are pretty interesting.

 

I've got so much peace and love i don't know what to do with it all haha.

 

I know whats you're homepage

 

Hehehe. Thanks for the laugh.

 

But I don't have a homepage of anything. I don't try to teach anything. I just like to talk with people and hopefully cause them to think.

 

I think I accomplish this as I do get into some really nice discussions.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Edited to add: Nor do I have anything to sell, nor do I have any unsatisfied basic needs so I'm not looking to buy anything.

 

Cheeezzzee!

 

Happy Trails!

Edited March 26, 2010 by Marblehead

[3bob]

Totally agree up to this point.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Hi MH,

 

I don't see how that can be when several posts ago you said the opposite about Master Jesus? (as in "failure - screwed up, and dead") So which is it? And if we don't know 1st hand one way or the other then imo we should consider an agnostic like position, or a four-fold negation like position, or the natural and giving ways of the Earth/Tao type of position, etc..

 

Bob

[Marblehead]

Okay. Just to make sure you do not succeed in presenting the idea that I am contradicting myself I shall do the following:

 

"Golden Being" souls are spoken of and in common to most or all of the peaceful and loving mystical/spiritual traditions, and Beings such as these have overcome death.

 

"Golden Beings" I understand as those who have had a great positive influence on others. Yes, they, that is, the teachings and guidance they have given has outlived their physical life so in a way they (their teachings and what they stood for) have overcome death.

 

"To die but yet not be forgotten - that is true long life."

 

(which to me, although in a different way also includes Taoism and certain spiritual/warrior traditons, for instance an account of the Gloden Being is given by the founder of Aikido)

 

And "Golden Beings" are still spoken of today. Plato. There's another one for you. Can we include Nietzsche? I would.

 

Further, to me Jesus is also one of those elder souls and more alive right now ...

 

And this is true because Christianity (based on the teachings of Jesus) is very much alive and well on this planet.

 

So. Where is the contradiction in any of the references I have made about Jesus?

 

(as in "failure - screwed up, and dead") So which is it?

 

Indeed. He failed to convince the Jews that he was their God. He screwed up because if he would have taken a less confrontational approach he may have eventually convinced them. Yes, he was nailed to a cross (althogh I am told that it really wasn't a cross but a simple pole) and died rather than having more time to do his work.

 

In this post I have not contradicted anything I have previously said.

 

Peace & Love!

[3bob]

Well frankly it doesn't seem that I have to do much to present the idea, since MH has more or less done that himself along with and through the use of various opinions and counter-type intellectual arguments which imo are also ok to a point... but in relation to this subject I didn't mean metaphorically, hopefully, or in long standing memories and talk of doctrines or teachings in regards to such Beings; thus not in manner of speaking when it comes to overcoming death as the great golden beings have done! I have tried to make it clear that I meant in fact and in act and not as you have recently interpreted such for the context of our exchanges, although for yourself it is your right to keep your particular interpretation, but again that is not where I'm coming from.

 

Om

Edited March 26, 2010 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

... thus not in manner of speaking when it comes to overcoming death as the great golden beings have done! I have tried to make it clear that I meant in fact and in act and not as you have recently interpreted such for the context of our exchanges, although for yourself it is your right to keep your particular interpretation, but again that is not where I'm coming from.

 

Om

 

But Bob,

 

NO ONE overcomes physical death. That is a fact!!!!! And you know I am not a Christian nor am I a Buddhist so I do not believe in any of the stories about life after physical death.

 

But please understand, dear hearts, I am not trying to change anyones beliefs.

 

Peace & Love!

[3bob]

But Bob,

 

NO ONE overcomes physical death. That is a fact!!!!! And you know I am not a Christian nor am I a Buddhist so I do not believe in any of the stories about life after physical death.

 

But please understand, dear hearts, I am not trying to change anyones beliefs.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Hi MH,

Imo that sounds like another double-take type of statement on your part since you state that your "fact" is also what you believe, which implys to me that you have not verifed one way or the other for yourself the ability of Golden Beings to overcome death? (an overcoming where one sees death die) Further, imo one without verifcation of such -one way or the other- would then through the use of reasoning arrive at some type of agnostic like position... although for those who do not want to arrive at an agnostic type of position on this subject that is also your right; for I to don't want to change anyone's position. - But considering that this is mainly a "Tao" website and that the Tao Teh Ching and related major teachings have in my understanding (and in that of many others) several alludings to of the actual and thus not the metaphoric overcoming of death, I then wonder where the majority of site members stand on this subject and why?

 

Btw, and again MH, I'm not speaking from beliefs or hopes but from a verification, and there are scores of 1st hand verifcations shared by a great many others who are far, far better qualified to speak on the subject than a me. Of course they would not beat the subject up for the sake of argument like we have to some degree.

 

Om

Edited March 26, 2010 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

Hi MH,

Imo that sounds like another double-take type of statement

 

Hi Bob,

 

No, I stated it as a fact and did not voice my opinion within those two sentences.

 

Back in the old days when I was doing my search for a path I did in fact read many documents regarding reincarnation and life after death and all the other (IMO) superstitious stuff and found not one single verifiable documentation that such things could possibly be true.

 

Therefore I have previously stated and will state again that I am a verifiable non-believer. However, if there is ever even just one scientifically verifiable occurance of such events then I would be very willing to change my mind or at least consider it.

 

So we can believe undocumented and unverifiable claims to all these super-natural events if we wish to. I choose to not believe in such things.

 

Yes, there is one chapter of Lao Tzu's where a person could assume that he was talking about life after physical death. That chapter has been argued many times over by a great number of people. And Chuang Tzu used this idea a couple of the stories he fabricated in order to make a point. But he stated very clearly that he did not know what happens with us when we die, so he would be your agnostic.

[Apech]

But Bob,

 

NO ONE overcomes physical death. That is a fact!!!!! And you know I am not a Christian nor am I a Buddhist so I do not believe in any of the stories about life after physical death.

 

But please understand, dear hearts, I am not trying to change anyones beliefs.

 

Peace & Love!

 

After seeing the Solitary, he could abolish the distinctions of past and present. After abolishing the past and present, he was able to enter there where life and death are no more, where killing does not take away life, nor does giving birth add to it. He was ever in accord with the exigencies of his environment, accepting all and welcoming all, regarding everything as destroyed, and everything as in completion. This is to be 'secure amidst confusion,' reaching security through chaos."

 

"Where did you learn this from?" asked Nanpo Tsekuei. "I learned it from the Son of Ink," replied Nu Yu, "and the Son of Ink learned it from the Grandson of Learning, the Grandson of Learning from Understanding, and Understanding from Insight, Insight learned it from Practice, Practice from Folk Song, and Folk Song from Silence, Silence from the Void, and the Void learned it from the Seeming Beginning."

[Eric23]

Indeed. He failed to convince the Jews that he was their God. He screwed up because if he would have taken a less confrontational approach he may have eventually convinced them. Yes, he was nailed to a cross (althogh I am told that it really wasn't a cross but a simple pole) and died rather than having more time to do his work.

Peace & Love!

 

The point I was trying to make in a previous post was that according to Christian scripture, Jesus was destined to die in the manner in which the gospels depict. It was not really a choice, more of an acceptance of one's pre-determined path. I spent a lot of time long, long ago being preached at and once in a while preaching myself in a Bible church; am very familiar with the "party line." Looking at it from the outside I can see where you're coming from and why you come to the conclusions that you have. The very act of Jesus accepting the roll as the Lamb of God and thereby being offered as a sacrifice, forms the basis of Christianity's core teaching.

 

For whatever it's worth, given the history of the Christian church I believe that it's almost impossible for anyone in our time and in our place to really know what the exact teachings of Jesus to his followers in Palestine were. So many corrupting influences, almost from the very beginning, have shaped (and distorted)what is being taught as the truth.

[Marblehead]

The point I was trying to make in a previous post was that according to Christian scripture, Jesus was destined to die in the manner in which the gospels depict. It was not really a choice, more of an acceptance of one's pre-determined path. I spent a lot of time long, long ago being preached at and once in a while preaching myself in a Bible church; am very familiar with the "party line." Looking at it from the outside I can see where you're coming from and why you come to the conclusions that you have. The very act of Jesus accepting the roll as the Lamb of God and thereby being offered as a sacrifice, forms the basis of Christianity's core teaching.

 

For whatever it's worth, given the history of the Christian church I believe that it's almost impossible for anyone in our time and in our place to really know what the exact teachings of Jesus to his followers in Palestine were. So many corrupting influences, almost from the very beginning, have shaped (and distorted)what is being taught as the truth.

 

Yes, I did ignore that point you were making, didn't I? I apologize. It is just that my memories of the Bible are so limited that I hesitate to speak as if I have an opinion.

 

So, to speak to it but at the same time claiming ignorance, if what you suggest about him being destined to die then why do I recall it being written that while he was on the cross (pole) dying look to the sky and ask "God, why have you forsaken me?"

 

Again, as I do not follow such affairs I claim the possibility of faulty thinking, I agree that the Church has modified the Bible many times. Some books were even left out because they did not suit the Church at the time of re-writing the Bible. I don't know if there are any original documents still in existence of the original Bible as dictated by Paul to the Greek scribes. There may even be some original documents written in Hebrew but I have no knowledge of this.

 

I really feel a bit uncomfortable making my points because I really don't like saying negative things about another person's faith and beliefs. But I will not ignore a question made to me nor will I ignore a request to discuss a subject I have at least a little knowledge of.

 

So please, all you Christians out there, ignore me. Okay?

 

Peace & Love!

Edited March 26, 2010 by Marblehead

[3bob]

Hi Bob,

 

No, I stated it as a fact and did not voice my opinion within those two sentences.

 

Back in the old days when I was doing my search for a path I did in fact read many documents regarding reincarnation and life after death and all the other (IMO) superstitious stuff and found not one single verifiable documentation that such things could possibly be true.

 

Therefore I have previously stated and will state again that I am a verifiable non-believer. However, if there is ever even just one scientifically verifiable occurance of such events then I would be very willing to change my mind or at least consider it.

 

So we can believe undocumented and unverifiable claims to all these super-natural events if we wish to. I choose to not believe in such things.

 

Yes, there is one chapter of Lao Tzu's where a person could assume that he was talking about life after physical death. That chapter has been argued many times over by a great number of people. And Chuang Tzu used this idea a couple of the stories he fabricated in order to make a point. But he stated very clearly that he did not know what happens with us when we die, so he would be your agnostic.

 

MH,

Apparently you do not accept that your "beliefs" and or my "beliefs" about death are more or less opinions or ideas for one-self - which imo remains so until proven or disproven within and or through our deepest inner-experiences beyond any of our ifs, ands or buts types of doubts; thus until then an agnostic type of position makes reasonable sense to me. I'll bet high that you have not found a single shred of evidence of the kind you've mentioned to disprove the things related to death that we've touched on and which great teachers have also come out and revealed to various degrees. (btw. their given accounts have been documented as to dates, times, places and by many a witness also certain types of debatable scientific evidence along these lines is around but that is not really the point since such still has to be honestly proven or disproven within ourselves and the only one who can do that is ourselves, beyond any of our cherished notions for or against.

 

Om

[3bob]

Yes, I did ignore that point you were making, didn't I? I apologize. It is just that my memories of the Bible are so limited that I hesitate to speak as if I have an opinion.

 

So, to speak to it but at the same time claiming ignorance, if what you suggest about him being destined to die then why do I recall it being written that while he was on the cross (pole) dying look to the sky and ask "God, why have you forsaken me?"

 

Again, as I do not follow such affairs I claim the possibility of faulty thinking, I agree that the Church has modified the Bible many times. Some books were even left out because they did not suit the Church at the time of re-writing the Bible. I don't know if there are any original documents still in existence of the original Bible as dictated by Paul to the Greek scribes. There may even be some original documents written in Hebrew but I have no knowledge of this.

 

I really feel a bit uncomfortable making my points because I really don't like saying negative things about another person's faith and beliefs. But I will not ignore a question made to me nor will I ignore a request to discuss a subject I have at least a little knowledge of.

 

So please, all you Christians out there, ignore me. Okay?

 

Peace & Love!

 

"...I recall it being written that while he was on the cross (pole) dying look to the sky and ask "God, why have you forsaken me?"" MH

 

That is only part of what He said (and imo as his very last shred of doubt) and if it is left at that then the main context is lost, for He also said something else - but maybe you prefer for it to be left at that? (while also pleading in a way that you haven't read the text in a long time?)

 

Om

Edited March 26, 2010 by 3bob

[Mal]

[Marblehead]

MH,

Apparently you do not accept that your "beliefs" and or my "beliefs" about death are more or less opinions or ideas for one-self - which imo remains so until proven or disproven within and or through our deepest inner-experiences beyond any of our ifs, ands or buts types of doubts; thus until then an agnostic type of position makes reasonable sense to me. I'll bet high that you have not found a single shred of evidence of the kind you've mentioned to disprove the things related to death that we've touched on and which great teachers have also come out and revealed to various degrees. (btw. their given accounts have been documented as to dates, times, places and by many a witness also certain types of debatable scientific evidence along these lines is around but that is not really the point since such still has to be honestly proven or disproven within ourselves and the only one who can do that is ourselves, beyond any of our cherished notions for or against.

 

Om

 

Yep. When I speak I speak only for myself. I do not pretend that I have a multitude of followers but then I can say that my beliefs are based on life as I have observed it as well as knowledge shared with us by people much wiser than I could ever hope to be.

 

And like I said somewhere above, I am not trying to teach anything nor am I trying to sell anything. I am only sharing my observations of life as I have experienced it.

 

If there is life after death I will have to pay dearly but that is my choice and I take full responsibility for my choices.

 

I won't even discuss any reported occurances of life after death unless there is scientific documentation reviewed by at least one peer available for my own reading. If it is one of those stories that people make up it is, IMO, not even worth spending my time reading.

 

The only regret I have regarding this thread is that we spent too much time discussing Jesus when the initial post pertained to someone else.

 

But like I said, I rarely refuse to discuss subjects regarding life philosophies.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

"...I recall it being written that while he was on the cross (pole) dying look to the sky and ask "God, why have you forsaken me?"" MH

 

That is only part of what He said (and imo as his very last shred of doubt) and if it is left at that then the main context is lost, for He also said something else - but maybe you prefer for it to be left at that? (while also pleading in a way that you haven't read the text in a long time?)

 

Om

 

Hehehe. No, I will not cop-out due to my ignorance. I will simply state my ignorance and speak to only those things I have a bit of memory of. I do not remember what you are referring to so I can't speak to it.

 

And no, I will not start quoting from the Bible. I would end uip taking quotes out of context in order to support something I have already said and I just will not do that because I criticize other for doing it. I may not be a Christian but I'm not a religious hypocrite either.

 

But, if you would like to present the quotes for discussion I will oblige and offer my understanding and opinions of whatever quotes you present just as I did with the initial post.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Okay Mal,

 

So I just had to watch the video.

 

Just letting you know.

 

Yes, there have been quite a few concepts discussed in this thread.

 

I really have enjoyed it although I fear I may have stepped on a few toes and I apologize for that if anyone feels I have.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

One more comment. It is true that my beliefs may have absolutely nothing to do what reality. But then, they may. We each choose the path we feel we should walk. I have chosen mine. If you are going my way we might walk together for a while. If not then if I see you in the distance I will offer a greeting and a happy and successful journey.

 

May the journey of each and every one of you be happy and successful.

 

If you get lost call out my name and I will try to help.

 

Happy Trails!