Beginning Taoist Practices

[tumoessence]

Thank you very much for the last post Mr Yudelove. It is amazing how this simple practice has such results. Maybe it was the trigger that I needed at this point and everything else has been set for this. I still feel like I can extend this practice for longer periods of time as the muscles in the eyes get used to the exercise. But the cleansing is very pronounced since I have thirty years construction history with lots of fine dust in the air that my eyes are releasing.

The visualization is challenging with the eyes focused on the nose. I am curious about where is visualization taking place with the eyes like this?

Bill

[yuanqi]

 

in the yoga sutras the translation means the tip of the nose as in the top, or its root, which sounds like what you describe you discovered during your process

[/quote

 

Agree totally. Kutashta is the point. Not literally the tip of the nose, the root.

Edited March 29, 2010 by yuanqi

[UTI]

Thank you for sharing this with us, Eric!

 

I'll be getting your book in a few days, look forwards to reading through it. I'll be doing the nose gazing too.

 

I wonder, how does this mix in with previously done "foundation training". I followed the book "qigong; the secret of youth" by Yang Jwing-ming, which describes a method of massaging the abdomen coupled with meditation to build up qi in the dantian. I had what I percieved as a lot of success with this system, it revolutionalized my emotional, intellectual, and sexual life. However, when it came to the point where one starts working with the MCO, I felt the energy wasn't "right". It was either so strong that it blew my head out of orbit and made me conceited, or it wasn't present. I felt that, like what you said, I was only circulating messy qi.

 

Would your 100 days book give me a window to find the right energy? Does it combine ok with the techniques of massage to stimulate fascia and increase qi, or is it better to abandon that and go over to the system you describe?

 

Thanks a lot again!

 

-Joakim

[Eric Yudelove]

Thank you very much for the last post Mr Yudelove. It is amazing how this simple practice has such results. Maybe it was the trigger that I needed at this point and everything else has been set for this. I still feel like I can extend this practice for longer periods of time as the muscles in the eyes get used to the exercise. But the cleansing is very pronounced since I have thirty years construction history with lots of fine dust in the air that my eyes are releasing.

The visualization is challenging with the eyes focused on the nose. I am curious about where is visualization taking place with the eyes like this?

Bill

 

Visualizing, or just using your imagination, takes place at the tip of the nose. If you have trouble with it, don't do it for now.

 

MESY

[Eric Yudelove]

Thank you for sharing this with us, Eric!

 

I'll be getting your book in a few days, look forwards to reading through it. I'll be doing the nose gazing too.

 

I wonder, how does this mix in with previously done "foundation training". I followed the book "qigong; the secret of youth" by Yang Jwing-ming, which describes a method of massaging the abdomen coupled with meditation to build up qi in the dantian. I had what I percieved as a lot of success with this system, it revolutionalized my emotional, intellectual, and sexual life. However, when it came to the point where one starts working with the MCO, I felt the energy wasn't "right". It was either so strong that it blew my head out of orbit and made me conceited, or it wasn't present. I felt that, like what you said, I was only circulating messy qi.

 

Would your 100 days book give me a window to find the right energy? Does it combine ok with the techniques of massage to stimulate fascia and increase qi, or is it better to abandon that and go over to the system you describe?

 

Thanks a lot again!

 

-Joakim

 

Dear Joakim:

It's OK to do the message, but hold off visulizing in the Tan Tien until you get "100 Days". You get to the Tan Tien within the first few weeks of practice. The Microcosmic Orbit comes some time later and it is a very organized approach, based on the system used by Charles Luk in "Taoist Yoga".

It will all be covered. With me helping you, it should progress smoothly and easily.

 

MESY

[Fire Dragon]

Perhaps a bit out of topic, but related to the eyes anyway.

 

I am 42 years old and starting to need some reading glases. Do somebody know any

good exercises that relaxes the muscles around the eyes that makes the linse in the eye work better, or as it does when you are younger. (Not finding the right words in English here but still I think everybody know what I mean )

 

 

Fire Dragon

 

By the way I have tried the gasing at the tip of the nose a litle bit but I have still some problems with it, but it is to early to make any conclusions jet. Shall try some more times.

[Eric Yudelove]

 

in the yoga sutras the translation means the tip of the nose as in the top, or its root, which sounds like what you describe you discovered during your process

[/quote

 

Agree totally. Kutashta is the point. Not literally the tip of the nose, the root.

 

Apparently the Yoga Sutras say that the Kutashta is not the tip of the nose, but at the root of the nose.

I certainly don't know myself. If that is what they say, then that's fine with me. Go for it.

However, it is not this way in the Taoist Canon and this is what we are concerned with on this site. If the Yoga Sutra practices are of interest to you, please start another string of messages and you can post here where it is located.

We are all free to believe what we want, if we live in a reasonably free society. This string is particularly dedicated to beginning Taoist Yoga. Please respect this. Respect is something that helps us live in peace with each other.

We can be different, yet the same, without having to fight over it. When it comes to the Spirit, there is no place for fighting. If you mean to inform us, then this is appreciated. If you mean to correct us, then you should not participate. The system I put forth here is based on authentic and ancient Taoist books and they are just as valid in their way as the Yoga Sutras are in their way. They are 2 different systems.

 

Thank You,

MESY

MESY

[Eric Yudelove]

Perhaps a bit out of topic, but related to the eyes anyway.

 

I am 42 years old and starting to need some reading glases. Do somebody know any

good exercises that relaxes the muscles around the eyes that makes the linse in the eye work better, or as it does when you are younger. (Not finding the right words in English here but still I think everybody know what I mean )

 

 

Fire Dragon

 

By the way I have tried the gasing at the tip of the nose a litle bit but I have still some problems with it, but it is to early to make any conclusions jet. Shall try some more times.

 

There are a bunch of good exercises I posted above try them as well as Smiling into the Eyes.

[yuanqi]

ame='yuanqi' date='29 March 2010 - 01:12 PM' timestamp='1269882736' post='183135']

 

 

Apparently the Yoga Sutras say that the Kutashta is not the tip of the nose, but at the root of the nose.

I certainly don't know myself. If that is what they say, then that's fine with me. Go for it.

However, it is not this way in the Taoist Canon and this is what we are concerned with on this site. If the Yoga Sutra practices are of interest to you, please start another string of messages and you can post here where it is located.

We are all free to believe what we want, if we live in a reasonably free society. This string is particularly dedicated to beginning Taoist Yoga. Please respect this. Respect is something that helps us live in peace with each other.

We can be different, yet the same, without having to fight over it. When it comes to the Spirit, there is no place for fighting. If you mean to inform us, then this is appreciated. If you mean to correct us, then you should not participate. The system I put forth here is based on authentic and ancient Taoist books and they are just as valid in their way as the Yoga Sutras are in their way. They are 2 different systems.

 

Thank You,

MESY

MESY

I am aware of the two different systems. As a practitioner of Oriental medicine the Tao is close to my heart. I am not here to argue with you. I was agreeing with Spectrums Post. There are many different paths that lead to the same place and I can respect that. I am also aware of the system you are putting forth and understand that they are valid, of course they are as I used to practice them! However, one thing to consider is this-the techniques come from ancient texts that were written in archaic Chinese. According to my past teachers and instructors the chances of proper translation of those texts is slim and none, this could be the reason why the "tip" has been used in some circles and the "root" in others. Most probably originated in one place to begin with and over time, to suit individual needs and cultures have been changed. Just something to think about....

[tumoessence]

We can do a phenomenological study. If you have some energy running and are sensitive to it then try one point for one sit, then shift and try the other point in another practice session. How does your energy behave? Are they similar or different? Try it more than once to see if there are consistent results from one session to another. Trust your experience. Then choose your practice, and take responsiblity for the results.

Edited March 29, 2010 by tumoessence

[Kunlun Enthusiast]

not threads about jerking off, pimples, hemorrhoids and ramakhrishna.

 

 

Ramakrishna and hemorrhoids and pimples? Not a good comparison. You offended me here by comparing a well-accepted Master to jerking off and pimples. Note that Mantak Chia is way less interesting to me than Ramakrishna. You don't find him interesting, don't read about him, but quit making such stupid statements.

 

Eric, I apologize but little1's attitude to belittle a teacher speaks of his littleness.

Edited March 29, 2010 by Kunlun Enthusiast

[Eric Yudelove]

I am aware of the two different systems.

However, one thing to consider is this-the techniques come from ancient texts that were written in archaic Chinese. According to my past teachers and instructors the chances of proper translation of those texts is slim and none, this could be the reason why the "tip" has been used in some circles and the "root" in others.

 

Not all the sources are so ancient. Charles Luk's book is a translation of a Taoist text less than 200 years old. The Tien Tao school I quote is from 1995, I don't know right now when "Golden Flower" was written, but it was 1st published in English in 1931. There are other sources as well. There are no Taoist texts that I know of which specify the root of the nose as the starting point of the practice. If you know of any, please inform, I would like to read them.

Based on my experience as a criminal lawyer for more than 25 years, when you have 3 witnesses all saying the same thing and nothing to rebut them, the likelihood of them all seeing something different than what they were seeing, as you propose(they all were seeing the written Chinese words for "root" but thought they were seeing "tip"), is certainly slim to none. BTY, who are these teachers and instructors who knew of the mistranslation? Are they Taoists? If so what did they base their conclusions on?

I'm not trying to be a smart ass(even though I am), but what you put forth is illogical if you are just assuming your argument is so, with nothing behind it but the wind. To me it's comparable to mistaking the urogenital sphincter with the tip of your dick. I don't want to go any further with this line of thinking.

Give me something concrete Yuanqi. If it is Taoist related than I think we would all be interested.

Walk your talk.

 

MESY

Edited March 29, 2010 by Eric Yudelove

[Eric Yudelove]

Ramakrishna and hemorrhoids and pimples? Not a good comparison. You offended me here by comparing a well-accepted Master to jerking off and pimples. Note that Mantak Chia is way less interesting to me than Ramakrishna. You don't find him interesting, don't read about him, but quit making such stupid statements.

 

Eric, I apologize but little1's attitude to belittle a teacher speaks of his littleness.

 

This does not belong here. Another post like this could well lead to your suspension from TaoBums, especially posting it here when you've already been warned, apology or not. You might have noticed that this site is not named RamakrishnaBums. You're not preaching to the choir here. Control your ego. I never read him but I'm sure Ramakrishna said something similar.

Stop the my guru's better than your guru and I'm willing to fight and call you names about it bull shit. Grow up! Overcome your need to take offense on your path to spiritual growth. It's not easy, but who said it should be easy?

 

MESY

 

P.S. I just went back and read the posting that so upset you. There was no comparison made of Ramakrishna to pimples and hemorroids, Ramakrishna was listed as one subject that he would like to see less of on Tao Bums. I agree, no offense to Ramakrishna. When I 1st came here I thought there wasn't enough Taoism on TaoBums. Maybe I'm wrong but I would think that is what people on this site want to see for the main part. If there are postings comparing Taoist with other practices or ways of line, great. But I don't think TaoBums should be the depository for every eastern religion or philosophy out there. Perhaps there should be another category to post to on TaoBums, for other Spiritual pursuits. I don't mean to offend anyone, maybe it's all just my inclination toward clarity.

Edited March 29, 2010 by Eric Yudelove

[Aetherous]

Attorney Master Yudelove,

 

Not everyone here agrees with what you think this forum should be. Before the recent site change, there was a quote under the banner which said that this forum allows discussion of all spiritual paths. I think this still applies. It's nice to see your version of Taoism being represented here, but please know that the opinions of others are very much just as equally supported as your own.

[Eric Yudelove]

Attorney Master Yudelove,

 

Not everyone here agrees with what you think this forum should be. Before the recent site change, there was a quote under the banner which said that this forum allows discussion of all spiritual paths. I think this still applies. It's nice to see your version of Taoism being represented here, but please know that the opinions of others are very much just as equally supported as your own.

 

If this is so, I apologize.

I just think this particular thread should be kept pure Taoist. I'm trying to teach something here, not knock someone else's belief.

There are so many threads to use at TaoBums or you can create new ones. I don't see the harm in having at least a few sites just dedicated to Taoism on TaoBums.

Otherwise, you can talk about any spiritual path you care to, anywhere you'd like to. If you come here, all I ask is that you keep things within the bounds of what I'm teaching. That's fair. I'm not hurting anyone.

To me it's the same as leaving Taoist messages on Catholic websites, but what do I know? I take tea with Alice.

 

MESY

[Trunk]

~~~ TheTaoBums Moderation Team ~~~

 

Transcendent, mundane, talking through the middle. Taoist, Buddhist, Non-sectarian cultivation discussion..

... Before the recent site change, there was a quote under the banner which said that this forum allows discussion of all spiritual paths. I think this still applies. It's nice to see your version of Taoism being represented here, but please know that the opinions of others are very much just as equally supported as your own.

Correct. (And thank you for kindly acknowledging the positive on both sides of this issue.)

TTBs is a level open playing field for discussion.

 

Still some remnant of that banner description on the main page, under the description of "Taoist Discussion" (quote at top). This is a broad playing field, room for debate, different angles of view, segues, within a thread (happens all the time). There is no single microphone.

 

If you come here, all I ask is that you keep things within the bounds of what I'm teaching.

TTBs has broader discussion boundaries than going to see a speaker at a lecture. Different format, broader dynamics. Might be an adjustment for those used to being in a class environment.

 

Points based on comparative religions certainly doesn't break any TTBs rules. Nor points based on no religion, but simply one's own pt of view, experience.

 

Another post like this could well lead to your suspension from TaoBums,..

Incorrect.

 

- Trunk

 

~~~ Mod Squad out ~~~

[Mal]

Still it would be an amusing novelty for a thread to stay relatively on topic

 

If Eric is trying to teach a system, as he appears to be.

 

1. that is very generous.

2. debate on the merits of techniques is probably just going to be confusing and counterproductive to those trying to learn them.

 

*not mod-ing just me*

[yuanqi]

Not all the sources are so ancient. Charles Luk's book is a translation of a Taoist text less than 200 years old. The Tien Tao school I quote is from 1995, I don't know right now when "Golden Flower" was written, but it was 1st published in English in 1931. There are other sources as well. There are no Taoist texts that I know of which specify the root of the nose as the starting point of the practice. If you know of any, please inform, I would like to read them.

Based on my experience as a criminal lawyer for more than 25 years, when you have 3 witnesses all saying the same thing and nothing to rebut them, the likelihood of them all seeing something different than what they were seeing, as you propose(they all were seeing the written Chinese words for "root" but thought they were seeing "tip"), is certainly slim to none. BTY, who are these teachers and instructors who knew of the mistranslation? Are they Taoists? If so what did they base their conclusions on?

I'm not trying to be a smart ass(even though I am), but what you put forth is illogical if you are just assuming your argument is so, with nothing behind it but the wind. To me it's comparable to mistaking the urogenital sphincter with the tip of your dick. I don't want to go any further with this line of thinking.

Give me something concrete Yuanqi. If it is Taoist related than I think we would all be interested.

Walk your talk.

 

MESY

 

samurai swords

 

I was going to write a long email going in detail but i think another thread should be started in regards to that, not that i want to even participate.

 

The truth is many qigong authorities consider Yintang or the third eye, the 6th chakra (whatever you want to call it) to also be the location of the upper dantian. not the tip of the nose. the third eye is the seat of your spiritual vision. it is also the place where qi/prana is raised to at death in some practices to merge with the Universal Consciousness (insert whatever name you want here). so why is it given sooooooo much attention if we are to focus on the tip of the nose to go inward??

 

i will not drop names. this info is all over the place. but then again, 99.9% of whats out there to be bought or had isnt Truth anyway. i dont speak the name of my teachers or my Guru, as they dont seek students or publicity and you have never heard of them i am sure.

 

 

regardless of "when" the translations were done, my point was the information was taken from archaic Chinese, which is difficult at best to translate properly. nowadays people are translating the translations! this was the only point i had. i was just giving you something to ponder. thats all.

 

Enough on this subject, let it go back to a thread on beginning Taoist practices. If i offended you I apologize, perhaps I should have not agreed with Spectrum's post without clarifying. It was an oversite on my part. It really doesnt matter how one practices as long as they practice. Eventually we all will find truth....

[sifusufi]

Todays Practice:

 

Short to the point (literally)

 

1. Tip of nose 4-5 min...mind wander wander wander... focus

2. Half way up... wait...wait... IGNITION!!!

 

Kinda like the (phosphene)? images prior to sleep.

But alignment would best describe the experience.

[Kunlun Enthusiast]

This does not belong here. Another post like this could well lead to your suspension from TaoBums, especially posting it here when you've already been warned, apology or not. You might have noticed that this site is not named RamakrishnaBums. You're not preaching to the choir here. Control your ego. I never read him but I'm sure Ramakrishna said something similar.

Stop the my guru's better than your guru and I'm willing to fight and call you names about it bull shit. Grow up! Overcome your need to take offense on your path to spiritual growth. It's not easy, but who said it should be easy?

 

MESY

 

P.S. I just went back and read the posting that so upset you. There was no comparison made of Ramakrishna to pimples and hemorroids, Ramakrishna was listed as one subject that he would like to see less of on Tao Bums. I agree, no offense to Ramakrishna. When I 1st came here I thought there wasn't enough Taoism on TaoBums. Maybe I'm wrong but I would think that is what people on this site want to see for the main part. If there are postings comparing Taoist with other practices or ways of line, great. But I don't think TaoBums should be the depository for every eastern religion or philosophy out there. Perhaps there should be another category to post to on TaoBums, for other Spiritual pursuits. I don't mean to offend anyone, maybe it's all just my inclination toward clarity.

 

One: Scotty quoted the group's banner, I agree with him and thank him for that.

Two: As for you trying to moderate here and threatening to ban me - the real moderator has spoken. So you better take it cool there Mr. Wanna be moderator?

Three: I apologized to you in my post for butting in and the response was geared towards Little1. I think you paid no attention to that and simply took off on me. Talking of keeping the ego in control, advice easier given than followed? lol

 

I don't follow Ramakrishna, Buddha, Mantak Chia or Taomeow. I read them all, and absorb what I think is useful and makes sense. I only quoted Mantak Chia as Little1 seems to have regards for him, just as I do for Ramakrishna.

 

Mr. Y, just as you think this Ramakrishna banter is unneeded here, I also think Little1's comment was totally unnecessary. I still find his comment offensive and attitude condescending, but now you have have hopped on to the same train.

 

Just go back and check how many topics on Ramakrishna are really there on this forum. Seriously, now I have to agree with what someone said about you on the other thread. Don't spend your precious time in redefining the way things work on TTB please, there are actual moderators to do that

 

Okay, I am out of here, please go ahead and share your valuable teachings without any more Ramakrishnabumm interruption from me. Power trips of your kind with no compassion or insight are as interesting to me as old, fake plastic flowers

Edited March 30, 2010 by Kunlun Enthusiast

[Eric Yudelove]

One: Scotty quoted the group's banner, I agree with him and thank him for that.

Two: As for you trying to moderate here and threatening to ban me - the real moderator has spoken. So you better take it cool there Mr. Wanna be moderator?

Three: I apologized to you in my post for butting in and the response was geared towards Little1. I think you paid no attention to that and simply took off on me. Talking of keeping the ego in control, advice easier given than followed? lol

 

I don't follow Ramakrishna, Buddha, Mantak Chia or Taomeow. I read them all, and absorb what I think is useful and makes sense. I only quoted Mantak Chia as Little1 seems to have regards for him, just as I do for Ramakrishna.

 

Mr. Y, just as you think this Ramakrishna banter is unneeded here, I also think Little1's comment was totally unnecessary. I still find his comment offensive and attitude condescending, but now you have have hopped on to the same train.

 

Just go back and check how many topics on Ramakrishna are really there on this forum. Seriously, now I have to agree with what someone said about you on the other thread. Don't spend your precious time in redefining the way things work on TTB please, there are actual moderators to do that

 

Okay, I am out of here, please go ahead and share your valuable teachings without any more Ramakrishnabumm interruption from me. Power trips of your kind with no compassion or insight are as interesting to me as old, fake plastic flowers

 

I thought there was a strict policy on TaoBums to treat harshly any name calling, which you did. I was simply warning you of this policy, I'm not a Moderator nor do I seek to be one. I won't do it again.

I didn't realize that single topic strings on TaoBums was a long extinct species-pity.

I hope I get some help from some of you out there to raise the level of consciousness around here.I'm not the Ku Klux Clan of Taoism-but you can't teach Taoism when you're in the midst of chaos.

Anyway I thought this string was meant for discussions about Beginning Taoist Practices exclusively. If I was wrong, this is my error.

Kunlun Experience - Go with God and do not sin.

 

Once Again I Have Been,

MESY

 

P.S. Sin if you must!

[tumoessence]

Since the energetic effects of root of the nose and tip of the nose practices are so different I don't think they could be confused in language by real practioners. I see them as applying to different stages and concentrating on the brow, "third eye" is not a beginner practice in Taoism. At least that is what I understand.

[宁]

 

I don't follow Ramakrishna, Buddha, Mantak Chia or Taomeow. I read them all, and absorb what I think is useful and makes sense. I only quoted Mantak Chia as Little1 seems to have regards for him, just as I do for Ramakrishna.

 

Mr. Y, just as you think this Ramakrishna banter is unneeded here, I also think Little1's comment was totally unnecessary.

 

- you take things way too personally... you can call master chia a jerk, if you really demand satisfaction, i really don't care

- this is a daoist forum anyway

- i don't think correctness/fairness should be the only criteria, but rather the contribution, and the quality of it

- but hey, that's just me

- let's leave this thread for practice issues and stop any argument regarding anything else

 

edit: spelling and typos

Edited March 30, 2010 by Little1

[UTI]

Dear Joakim:

It's OK to do the message, but hold off visulizing in the Tan Tien until you get "100 Days". You get to the Tan Tien within the first few weeks of practice. The Microcosmic Orbit comes some time later and it is a very organized approach, based on the system used by Charles Luk in "Taoist Yoga".

It will all be covered. With me helping you, it should progress smoothly and easily.

 

MESY

 

That's great. Then I will continue with the massaging two times a day, minus visualization, and have the nose gazing before each session.

 

To share my initial results with the nose gazing, I first found it difficult to find the tip of the nose by looking, much easier to close the eyes and just feel it. The second session, however, I felt the point between the eyebrow very clearly, and it was like there was a tingling string between the tip of the nose and the middle of the eyebrows.

 

I'm very glad you've invited us to take part of this Eric

[Jonah]

Eric,

 

I would like to thank you for coming onto this site and providing us with your insights on Taoist practice. I feel your 100 Days book is one of the best chi kung titles out there and have regularly recommended it to friends and students.

 

This forum wouldn't be possible without the internet, it's great to be able to share our thoughts and opinions from people all around the world with simply a computer and keyboard. But the same technology has its limits: namely, that because there is no face to face interaction, it is very easy to both misinterpret things as well as say things to each other that you would never say to them in person. There is an ever-present potential for postings to go way off topic very quickly simply because of a simple misunderstanding or difference in opinion. And they can go way off topic in a very ugly way.

 

This will always be an issue, it's inherent in the system. Nonetheless, I do hope we as a forum can work together towards sticking to topic in this particular teaching thread, and treat this thread (and hopefully future ones) as an actual class. We are here to learn a particular topic. That is why we're here.

 

In class it's perfectly normal to ask questions, even ones that can be challenging or pointed. But the point of the questions are generally to get clarification and understanding on the subject at hand. Imagine if you were back in school or college and during class every few minutes someone would yell at the teacher, "Who the hell do you think you are?!" or "You've got to be f**ing kidding me, that is not the way it is at all!" It would actually be funny the first couple of times, but in reality let's not kid ourselves, for everyone who wanted to learn something it would be a disaster, no one would benefit from such a situation.

 

I'm certainly not a moderator here, and I post things once in a blue moon, but I extremely confident that I am not the only one who sees Eric here as an amazing opportunity to learn some very cool things. I would hate to see a handful of people ruin an opportunity for the rest of us to download some very cool techniques.

 

"Like this cup," said the Zen Master, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup" That's the diplomatic side of me.

 

Undiplomatically I would like to say loudly to some members of the group - SHUT THE HELL UP WHEN THE TEACHER IS SPEAKING, YOU MIGHT ACTUALLY LEARN SOMETHING.

 

I'll leave it at that.