There is no self

[Birch]

I have called this topic and the response the "stick figure hypothesis" and I rambled on about it in my private forum. It does have bearing on real life IMO and I'm very much in the midst of working out what I do about that. When I can articulate it better without resorting to existing references about dogma etc I'll get back to you. That part could take a while

[Lucky7Strikes]

Heaven (Pure Consciousness) crosses with Earth (Phenomena) and in the overlap there is Man ("I"). Imagine a van diagram.

 

All three coexist dependently, it is the basis for existence itself. Suffering arises when a conditional Man is grasped as an identity, and a false duality is established.

 

The imagined ego believed to be separated from Heaven and Earth, struggle in a cyclical existence of attachments.

 

The merging of all three elements, wherein Phenomena, Pure Consciousness, and Heart-Mind unite into a unhindered existence, the Alchemy is complete. Yin and Yang cease to have meaning:

 

I am Phenomena, I am Pure Consciousness, I am I, and so forth. It is indescribable.

 

Edited April 9, 2010 by Lucky7Strikes

[ralis]

Heaven (Pure Consciousness) crosses with Earth (Phenomena) and in the overlap there is Man ("I"). Imagine a van diagram.

 

All three coexist dependently, it is the basis for existence itself. Suffering arises when a conditional Man is grasped as an identity, and a false duality is established.

 

The imagined ego believed to be separated from Heaven and Earth, struggle in a cyclical existence of attachments.

 

The merging of all three elements, wherein Phenomena, Pure Consciousness, and Heart-Mind unite into a unhindered existence, the Alchemy is complete. Yin and Yang cease to have meaning:

 

I am Phenomena, I am Pure Consciousness, I am I, and so forth. It is indescribable.

 

 

 

It is venn diagram not van. You must be living in the dark ages when you refer to "Man".

 

In regards to the link I posted, you would blame the young woman for having an incorrect view and therefor her being forced by stone age religious fanatics into an arranged marriage that caused her death was her fault?

 

 

ralis

[Marblehead]

I'm still here and I am still just as real today as I was yesterday even though I have changed a little bit and I am one day older.

 

Peace & Love!

[RongzomFan]

I don't deny "you" exist.

 

There is simply a discrepency between how you think you exist and how reality is.

 

However, I do completely deny that time exists.

Edited April 9, 2010 by alwayson

[ralis]

Why are the non selves still posting here? Shouldn't they be incommunicado in the non self realm? After all, how can a non self (non entity) communicate to an real entity?

 

ralis

[hajimesaito]

The birds have vanished into the sky,

and now the last cloud drains away.

 

We sit together, the mountain and me,

until only the mountain remains.

 

- Li Po

 

 

Apologies for interfering in the discussion.

[RongzomFan]

Why are the non selves still posting here? Shouldn't they be incommunicado in the non self realm? After all, how can a non self (non entity) communicate to an real entity?

 

ralis

 

 

The self exists in the arenas of labels, language, thoughtforms and worldly convention.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

However, I do completely deny that time exists.

No, you don't.. but, you like to pretend you do.. it's a very clever intellectual game, very nourishing to the self-image, but.. no one alive in physical manifestation actually believes time doesn't exist.. they're just pissed because relativity won't agree with their conceptual preferences.. so, they stomp their feet, make-up elaborate intellectual stories, and pretend.. it's great fun to watch.. oh, by the way, what do you call the interval/duration between your birth and your current experience?

 

Be well..

[Marblehead]

I don't deny "you" exist.

 

There is simply a discrepency between how you think you exist and how reality is.

 

However, I do completely deny that time exists.

 

I exist consistent with my perception. I have no illusions or dilusions about whether or not I exist.

 

For those who wish to think that they exist in some other form than the reality we can percieve all I can do is wish them well and hope, for their sake, that they will one day find themself.

 

And speaking of things that exist, no, I can't say that time 'exists'. Time is a concept we use to define the movement of objects from point A to point B as well as things like aging our physical body, a vehicle, and on and on.

 

Time is nothing more than a measurement of change. Now, we (at least I) cannot deny change. Time is its measurement.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Why are the non selves still posting here? Shouldn't they be incommunicado in the non self realm? After all, how can a non self (non entity) communicate to an real entity?

 

ralis

 

You will never get a straight answer to that one. Hehehe.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

The birds have vanished into the sky,

and now the last cloud drains away.

 

We sit together, the mountain and me,

until only the mountain remains.

 

- Li Po

 

 

Apologies for interfering in the discussion.

 

Hey! You are welcome to join in with the fun.

 

So who wrote the poetry? It was Li Po, was it not? Therefore he still remained, yes, embracing the mountain but none-the-less.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

The self exists in the arenas of labels, language, thoughtforms and worldly convention.

 

"I" exist on this chair in front of this computer. That's reality!

 

Peace & Love!

[RongzomFan]

I do NOT deny your reality

 

One more time...

 

The self exists in the arenas of labels, language, thoughtforms and worldly convention.

 

You ARE using the english LANGUAGE aren't you?

Edited April 10, 2010 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

Greetings..

 

 

No, you don't.. but, you like to pretend you do.. it's a very clever intellectual game, very nourishing to the self-image, but.. no one alive in physical manifestation actually believes time doesn't exist.. they're just pissed because relativity won't agree with their conceptual preferences.. so, they stomp their feet, make-up elaborate intellectual stories, and pretend.. it's great fun to watch.. oh, by the way, what do you call the interval/duration between your birth and your current experience?

 

Be well..

 

 

 

Time does NOT exist. The past exists only as a memory in the NOW. The future is only a fictitious thoughtform in the NOW. This is just fact.

 

A clock is just a mechanical device with a motor. The motor spins 2-3 pieces of metal. Another fact.

 

Time LITERALLY does not exist. And to answer your specific question, I would call that interval between my birth and "now" a collection of THOUGHTFORM/MEMORIES accessed in the NOW.

Edited April 10, 2010 by alwayson

[Sunya]

Time does NOT exist. The past exists only as a memory in the NOW. The future is only a fictitious thoughtform in the NOW. This is just fact.

 

A clock is just a mechanical device with a motor. The motor spins 2-3 pieces of metal. Another fact.

 

Time LITERALLY does not exist. And to answer your specific question, I would call that interval between my birth and "now" a collection of THOUGHTFORM/MEMORIES accessed in the NOW.

 

Indeed. There is change, nobody can deny that.. but the continuation of something into something is conceptual, for example: an apple drops from a tree, lays on the ground, and rots. The mind will count moments and say that apple has been there for 2 days and now its rotting! But the truth is, there is only rotting. The 'apple' is just an experience of a collection of visual and tactile phenomena coupled with thought-forms (the essence of which is an assumption that 'apple' is something inherently real). Was the apple born? Did the apple die? There is no inherent apple, so birth and death don't apply. Language conditions you to think in nouns but without any substance/essence to make 'apple' self-existing, how can there be a noun? There is simply the ever-changing experience of apple as a process. There is apple-ing!

 

As for time, there isn't even agreement among Physicists though the majority view it as relative -- http://www.helium.com/debates/126796-is-time-real-or-relative

 

Philosophically there's no way to prove that time exists because there's absolutely no way to get out of your subjective perspectival experience. All you have is your own experience and if you analyze it thoroughly you will see that the past is memory and future is thought (like alwayson mentioned). You may think that without time there wouldn't be change, but nobody is denying change. Time is measured by the earth revolving around the sun; if you lived on another planet in another star system -- days would be much longer and so would hours/minutes, etc. So measurements are relative.

 

As for "time" itself, what's your definition of time? I found this one

 

the continuum of experience in which events pass from the future through the present to the past

 

I think anyone can see the problem with such definition. It reifies 'future' and 'past', it makes the ideas to be real when they are only ideas. Like I said, the 'continuum of experience' cannot be denied by anyone but the 'future' and 'present' can. If you take away both of these constructs, what do you have left? The ongoing ever-changing moment.

[Marblehead]

I do NOT deny your reality

 

One more time...

 

The self exists in the arenas of labels, language, thoughtforms and worldly convention.

 

You ARE using the english LANGUAGE aren't you?

 

Hehehe. And more plainly I will state that I exist beyond all labels, language, thoughtforms and worldly conventions.

 

How many times and in how many ways do I need to explain this before you understand?

 

My existence is beyond anyones definition. If there were no other humans on this planet to observe me I would still exist.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Hi Mikaelz,

 

I enjoyed that post on 'time'. I can't comment though - just wanted to make note.

 

Peace & Love!

 

PS I agree with Alwayson's statement: The past exists only as a memory in the NOW. The future is only a fictitious thoughtform in the NOW. This is just fact.

Edited April 10, 2010 by Marblehead

[Sunya]

Hehehe. And more plainly I will state that I exist beyond all labels, language, thoughtforms and worldly conventions.

 

How many times and in how many ways do I need to explain this before you understand?

 

My existence is beyond anyones definition. If there were no other humans on this planet to observe me I would still exist.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Marble, what is the experience of 'I' beyond thoughts and feelings? By thoughts we have language, the ongoing conversation in the head, as well as non-language thoughts such as 'intention' and symbolic gestures experienced in the dream state. There are various types of thoughts. Feelings are always felt in the body and usually correlate to thoughts. Are you saying that the 'I' exists beyond thoughts and feelings? How could you possibly say that when all you have are thoughts and feelings in your experience? Is the 'I' not just a thought/feeling?

 

Hi Mikaelz,

 

I enjoyed that post on 'time'. I can't comment though - just wanted to make note.

 

Thank you

Edited April 10, 2010 by mikaelz

[Marblehead]

Marble, what is the experience of 'I' beyond thoughts and feelings? By thoughts we have language, the ongoing conversation in the head, as well as non-language thoughts such as 'intention' and symbolic gestures experienced in the dream state. There are various types of thoughts. Feelings are always felt in the body and usually correlate to thoughts. Are you saying that the 'I' exists beyond thoughts and feelings? How could you possibly say that when all you have are thoughts and feelings in your experience? Is the 'I' not just a thought/feeling?

 

Actually, "I" (and no, I can't point to any specific thing that is "I") am so much more than just thought and feeling. I am a force withing nature. I am a collection of various forms of energy that interact with all the energies in the universe.

 

There are times during meditation when I have no thought or feeling but I am still just as much "I" as I was minutes bfore meditating (except for minor changes that are taking place all the time). Even as you read this i am causing changes in you. Sure, they may not be significant nor may they be permanent but they are changes none-the-less. This happens because of my energies.

 

I can be a moving force or an immovable object. My potential is limited only by my will and my capacities and capabilities. I can cut down an existing tree and plant another one. I am both destroyer and creator (within my limits of course).

 

And you have your set of will, capabilities and capacities. We each do.

 

I do understand that your philosophy is comfortable for you. All I can say to that is if it helps you through your life and it brings you inner peace then hold to it.

 

I personally want more out of life than just passive existence. (Actually, I have already lived a very full and satisfying life.) I will alway assert myself whenever I am challenged by anyone or anything because I know that I have majority control over my life.

 

So yes, I am so much more than just thought and feeling. I can assist or resist - whatever is appropriate in different conditions. Or I may choose to abstain. Wu wei, you know.

 

But, I am no more than anyone else. We are all parts of the whole and we each have just as much value to the whole as any one else has. No, Bill Gates is not more important than you or I. Sure, he has more money but that doesn't matter all that much. He still has to stop now and then to take a crap.

 

I better stop for now.

 

Peace & Love!

[Sunya]

There are times during meditation when I have no thought or feeling but I am still just as much "I" as I was minutes bfore meditating (except for minor changes that are taking place all the time).

 

you're describing the experience of the very subtle thoughtform 'I AM', thoughts don't have to be verbal. Was there awareness of this feeling of 'I'? Then that feeling is not I since you were aware of it.

 

Even as you read this i am causing changes in you. Sure, they may not be significant nor may they be permanent but they are changes none-the-less. This happens because of my energies.

 

who's energies?

 

I can be a moving force or an immovable object. My potential is limited only by my will and my capacities and capabilities. I can cut down an existing tree and plant another one. I am both destroyer and creator (within my limits of course).

 

You are nothing but a thoughtform, everything you describe happens spontaneously without any doer.

 

 

And you have your set of will, capabilities and capacities. We each do.

 

I do understand that your philosophy is comfortable for you. All I can say to that is if it helps you through your life and it brings you inner peace then hold to it.

 

Philosophy isn't about being comfortable, it's about figuring out the way things truly are.

 

I personally want more out of life than just passive existence.

 

Doership is an illusion and always has been, but things get done. Look at the last century alone.. so much has been done! So many innovations, so many wars, so many happenings! And yet.. no doers, just spontaneous intermingled happenings. Passive is a quality you give to the thoughtform of selflessness since you've never experienced it; you assume it's a certain way because the ego needs to feel that its a necessity. The mind loves to fantasize and see the alternative as a negative extreme. This is how we stay the same; this is why we don't change perception and see things as they are.

 

I will alway assert myself whenever I am challenged by anyone or anything because I know that I have majority control over my life.

 

Right, the illusion of control is a major facet of the ego. It needs to feel that its in control when it's only a thought-form. Can you control the heart beat? Can you move blood through veins and heal wounds? No, all of that happens spontaneously while the ego pretends that 'it's body' did something, implying a possessive nature. Did you choose to be born? Will you choose to die?

 

What can you really do? well...you can think, make decisions, act. right? but where do your choices come from? Where do the decisions come from? It's all under the hood, everything happens behind the scenes. You will get an idea and then make a choice, that is your perception of your experience, but that's only the tip of the iceberg. Getting an idea means the idea arose spontaneously out of nowhere. You don't create an idea; it comes to you. What do you actually create? 'Choice' is an illusion. An idea arises spontaneously, or an impulse, and decision-making is a process of abstractly thinking through a set filter, gained through experience, about the positives and negatives of a given choice, like a cost-benefit analysis.

 

Thoughts carry a subconscious non-verbal assumption that there is a thinker, that there is a doer, someone in control. You will probably think that 'will' or 'intention' is the I, but that too is a non-verbal thought form containing the underlying assumption of 'I'. If you become mindful and observant of will, you'll see that it too is automatic. Wu-wei happens all the time, always, you don't make a choice of it. Choosing to act spontaneously is just the mind becoming aware of how things always are through acceptance and giving up the mental construct of "control".

 

Self as a non-verbal assumptive mental construct lies quite deep within consciousness. It's like the drone in Hindu music which is always there but hard to pinpoint unless you focus on it, because it's a constant. But, when analyzed, eventually it can be seen as an object in awareness just like sensory perceptions and thoughts are. If there is awareness of 'I', then 'I' is not you. Since there can be awareness of everything, including the 'I', whatever is awared is not you. Thus there is nothing to cling to because there is no 'you' that can be found. There is only awareness as the infintely diverse manifestations experienced.

Edited April 10, 2010 by mikaelz

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

I agree with Alwayson's statement: The past exists only as a memory in the NOW. The future is only a fictitious thoughtform in the NOW. This is just fact.

I agree with your statement, as quoted, Marblehead.. but, to state the 'Time' doesn't exist, is ignorant.. tell that to the IRS on April "16th", tell it to the Boarding Agent about the flight you just missed.. tell it to the Silver Medal winner who missed the Gold by 2/100ths of a second.. 'Time' is quite real, it serves a very useful function.. it's relative, so what? it's most rudimentary form was observed as the intervals of light and dark, later described as night and day..

 

There is an observable interval/duration between your birth and your current experience.. it can be described in many ways, relative ways.. but, the interval is an existent function of the time/space continuum.. that we use the 'word' Time, and certain convenient standardizations, is just common-sense efficiency.. blathering-on about 'Time' not existing is just 'see how new-agey cool "I" am' sorts of self-imagery..

 

Be well..

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

You are nothing but a thoughtform, everything you describe happens spontaneously without any doer.

Nope, 'YOU' are Consciousness incarnate 'doing' exactly as YOU choose, within the parameters of the tangible reality YOU have created with which, to experience YOUR own existence.. now, get out of your overactive imagination and start experiencing Life..

 

Philosophy isn't about being comfortable, it's about figuring out the way things truly are.

Nope, Philosophy is a trick designed to keep the mind active.. it is the 'stilled mind' that sees/experiences "the way things truly are".. but, this will not be received well, the mind prefers being active.. the issue is do you have the courage to 'still-the mind' and see/experience the way things truly are?

 

Be well..

[Sunya]

Greetings..

 

Nope, 'YOU' are Consciousness incarnate 'doing' exactly as YOU choose, within the parameters of the tangible reality YOU have created with which, to experience YOUR own existence.. now, get out of your overactive imagination and start experiencing Life..

 

I think it's you that has the overactive imagination lol. Consciousness incarnate? I created this reality? Ok i'll just wish that the sun goes down!... Wishing... wishing really hard! Nope it's still staying there! Damn.

 

Nope, Philosophy is a trick designed to keep the mind active.. it is the 'stilled mind' that sees/experiences "the way things truly are".. but, this will not be received well, the mind prefers being active.. the issue is do you have the courage to 'still-the mind' and see/experience the way things truly are?

 

Be well..

 

I agree with this, but integrating mind with that realization is also a necessity. The mind cannot be ignored so non-dual philosophy must be studied alongside with meditation.

 

But prior to stilling the mind you need concepts, there is a requirement in studying philosophy. If you don't know what 'still the mind means', how can you do it? If you don't know why, why would you do it? If you don't first intellectualize about your situation and desire truth or change or peace, or whatever goal, then there won't be any stilling the mind. Philosophy is a method that can be used properly and is a necessity especially in the beginning. It's not just a trick designed to keep the mind active.. But I agree that by itself, it'll get no where and will lead you to endless intellectualizing that'll lead to confusion. Perhaps thats what you were pointing to.

Edited April 10, 2010 by mikaelz

[C T]

you're describing the experience of the very subtle thoughtform 'I AM', thoughts don't have to be verbal. Was there awareness of this feeling of 'I'? Then that feeling is not I since you were aware of it.

 

 

 

who's energies?

 

 

 

You are nothing but a thoughtform, everything you describe happens spontaneously without any doer.

 

 

 

Philosophy isn't about being comfortable, it's about figuring out the way things truly are.

 

 

 

Doership is an illusion and always has been, but things get done. Look at the last century alone.. so much has been done! So many innovations, so many wars, so many happenings! And yet.. no doers, just spontaneous intermingled happenings. Passive is a quality you give to the thoughtform of selflessness since you've never experienced it; you assume it's a certain way because the ego needs to feel that its a necessity. The mind loves to fantasize and see the alternative as a negative extreme. This is how we stay the same; this is why we don't change perception and see things as they are.

 

 

 

Right, the illusion of control is a major facet of the ego. It needs to feel that its in control when it's only a thought-form. Can you control the heart beat? Can you move blood through veins and heal wounds? No, all of that happens spontaneously while the ego pretends that 'it's body' did something, implying a possessive nature. Did you choose to be born? Will you choose to die?

 

What can you really do? well...you can think, make decisions, act. right? but where do your choices come from? Where do the decisions come from? It's all under the hood, everything happens behind the scenes. You will get an idea and then make a choice, that is your perception of your experience, but that's only the tip of the iceberg. Getting an idea means the idea arose spontaneously out of nowhere. You don't create an idea; it comes to you. What do you actually create? 'Choice' is an illusion. An idea arises spontaneously, or an impulse, and decision-making is a process of abstractly thinking through a set filter, gained through experience, about the positives and negatives of a given choice, like a cost-benefit analysis.

 

Thoughts carry a subconscious non-verbal assumption that there is a thinker, that there is a doer, someone in control. You will probably think that 'will' or 'intention' is the I, but that too is a non-verbal thought form containing the underlying assumption of 'I'. If you become mindful and observant of will, you'll see that it too is automatic. Wu-wei happens all the time, always, you don't make a choice of it. Choosing to act spontaneously is just the mind becoming aware of how things always are through acceptance and giving up the mental construct of "control".

 

Self as a non-verbal assumptive mental construct lies quite deep within consciousness. It's like the drone in Hindu music which is always there but hard to pinpoint unless you focus on it, because it's a constant. But, when analyzed, eventually it can be seen as an object in awareness just like sensory perceptions and thoughts are. If there is awareness of 'I', then 'I' is not you. Since there can be awareness of everything, including the 'I', whatever is awared is not you. Thus there is nothing to cling to because there is no 'you' that can be found. There is only awareness as the infintely diverse manifestations experienced.

So it is. Great thoughts Mikael.