There is no self

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Consciousness incarnate? I created this reality? Ok i'll just wish that the sun goes down!... Wishing... wishing really hard! Nope it's still staying there! Damn.

Yep, as Consciousness undifferentiated, you/we set the evolution of the Cosmos in motion, a tangible reality within which we experience our existence as Individualizations of Oneness.. oh, and the part you 'overlooked', as Individualizations, we are bound by a few physical constraints, like 'moving the Sun around' ..

Philosophy is a method that can be used properly and is a necessity especially in the beginning.

That's a widely held 'belief', but.. i'll wager that you have a 'particular' philosophy that you believe is superior to others, right? I'll further wager this 'philosophy' prejudices the 'clarity' you wish you could claim, am i 'close'?

it'll get no where and will lead you to endless intellectualizing that'll lead to confusion. Perhaps thats what you were pointing to.

This is what the 'Clarity' of a stilled mind reveals about the vast majority of the dialogue on this forum.. yes, this is what i was pointing to..

 

Be well..

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

I agree that by itself, it'll get no where and will lead you to endless intellectualizing that'll lead to confusion. Perhaps thats what you were pointing to.

Precisely!!! See below for a great example!!

Self as a non-verbal assumptive mental construct lies quite deep within consciousness. It's like the drone in Hindu music which is always there but hard to pinpoint unless you focus on it, because it's a constant. But, when analyzed, eventually it can be seen as an object in awareness just like sensory perceptions and thoughts are. If there is awareness of 'I', then 'I' is not you. Since there can be awareness of everything, including the 'I', whatever is awared is not you. Thus there is nothing to cling to because there is no 'you' that can be found. There is only awareness as the infintely diverse manifestations experienced.

See what i mean???

 

Be well..

[RongzomFan]

Hehehe. And more plainly I will state that I exist beyond all labels, language, thoughtforms and worldly conventions.

 

How many times and in how many ways do I need to explain this before you understand?

 

My existence is beyond anyones definition. If there were no other humans on this planet to observe me I would still exist.

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

How many times do I have to explain, that you are using the ENGLISH LANGUAGE for all of that?

 

"I" is literally a thoughtform.

Edited April 10, 2010 by alwayson

[dwai]

How many times do I have to explain, that you are using the ENGLISH LANGUAGE for all of that?

 

"I" is literally a thoughtform.

 

Okay...you are a thought form. I on the otherhand always exist

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

"I" is literally a thoughtform.

Agreed!! but, it represents an existent condition, that in a forum like this, uses the "ENGLISH LANGUAGE" to communicate the 'thoughtform' which evokes a memory that is intended to be so similar as to complete the act of communicating.. "I" is essential for ALL of this communicating stuff, for ALL of this existence stuff.. it's just a self-imagery issue to banter about a bunch Philosophical 'stuff'.. for example:

 

There was this rich kid thousands of years ago, his over-protective parents created this 'illusion of perfection' to shield him from 'reality.. one day, the rich kid slips away from his parent's influence and experiences 'reality'.. he freaks completely out!! runs away and spends the next few decades creating a 'story' that would recreate the 'illusion of perfection' his parents had made for him.. he wanted to 'help' humanity feel the safety of his childhood 'illusion'.. what WAS that kid's name? oh, yeah, Buddha... as you can see, it's all a matter of perception.. Still the mind', the 'stories' vanish, and .. 'see' for yourself..

 

Be well..

[xabir2005]

[Sunya]

Greetings..

 

 

Precisely!!! See below for a great example!!

 

See what i mean???

 

Be well..

 

I'm not confused at all though. Philosophy is a method for me. Using the right language, having the right thoughts, are important because language is the only way for this mindstream to communicate with other mindstreams. I'm trying to point something out to Marble and so I must use language. If I didn't carefully and meticulously analyze thoughts and language, then I would just say something stupid and my point would be missed. It is necessary to understand what you are dropping and why, before dropping occurs. Or else there will be too much resistance and reluctance, that's unfortunately how it works

 

"That's a widely held 'belief', but.. i'll wager that you have a 'particular' philosophy that you believe is superior to others, right? I'll further wager this 'philosophy' prejudices the 'clarity' you wish you could claim, am i 'close'?"

 

I think the most superior philosophy is the most accurate to describe and point out the way things truly are.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

'Stilling the mind' is not the 'holy grail', it's the 'key to the chamber of truth'.. it provides the Clarity, from which we must still engage the mind and correlate with Life and our interactive contribution to it.. as Life spontaneously unfolds 'in the Now', there is no 'time' to engage the thought processes, you rely on 'who you are', who you have evolved into, to engage Life head-on, in real-time.. then, in quiet moments of reflection, you 'correlate' these experiences into a more 'evolved 'you'.. fully aware that 'you' are BOTH an Individualization of Oneness AND Oneness itself.. Brilliantly interdependent..

 

Be well..

[effilang]

Time literally does NOT exist. Look at a clock. There is a motor that turns two pieces of metal. These two pieces of metal move around, but thats about it.

 

Hhmm... I have to disagree with you there.

 

Yes, It was man who created the cogs and tightened the nuts and oiled the gears and sealed the clock, so that we might have time to look upon, such as it is; mechanical, electronic etc.

 

However... To say that "something" does not exist until we recognize it does and give it a name to be called by is false.

 

In essence you somewhat contradict yourself there as that would mean; nothing exists without the ego or the self to initially recognize it, to name it, or claim it.

 

I propose the following for your consideration; The sun rises and sets, the moon orbits around our planet, the earth rotates on its axis: These things whether we become aware of them, enough to name them, exist... Such is the universe, that it does not require anything to exist, from nothing it has everything and it flourishes in its namelessness. Yet despite that, you may observe the "sun" without naming it and gaze at the stars without claiming them; still of that you could deduce both an orientation of the passing of "time" and the "cardinal points".

 

Do they need a name? - No.

 

Because of this, i think it is wrong to say; it does not exist.

Perhaps it would be more appropriate to say:

 

It has always existed, We have not.

 

In English we say "time".

In Bulgarian we say "vreme"....

 

Yet it does not matter that they are different.

Because they are empty descriptions.

 

If it was not the sun, or the stars or the moon.

It would be the birds, or the rivers, or the temperature, or a simple sand clock or sundial.

 

We have been gifted with the power of creation and i think that what we create is very much real; from "time" to an illness, to a placebo effect etc.

 

It is simply reality and existence on different levels... these concepts exist in a more impermanent dimension of thought and understanding. But that... does not make them any less real in my opinion even if short lived in comparison to the greatness of the heavenly things : )

 

Langster

Edited April 10, 2010 by effilang

[Sunya]

Greetings..

 

 

Agreed!! but, it represents an existent condition, that in a forum like this, uses the "ENGLISH LANGUAGE" to communicate the 'thoughtform' which evokes a memory that is intended to be so similar as to complete the act of communicating.. "I" is essential for ALL of this communicating stuff, for ALL of this existence stuff.. it's just a self-imagery issue to banter about a bunch Philosophical 'stuff'.. for example:

 

There was this rich kid thousands of years ago, his over-protective parents created this 'illusion of perfection' to shield him from 'reality.. one day, the rich kid slips away from his parent's influence and experiences 'reality'.. he freaks completely out!! runs away and spends the next few decades creating a 'story' that would recreate the 'illusion of perfection' his parents had made for him.. he wanted to 'help' humanity feel the safety of his childhood 'illusion'.. what WAS that kid's name? oh, yeah, Buddha... as you can see, it's all a matter of perception.. Still the mind', the 'stories' vanish, and .. 'see' for yourself..

 

Be well..

 

Perhaps you should work on your communicating skills more thoroughly since what you said makes no sense As I said earlier, philosophy is not a trick of the mind to be active, its a necessity. You're using the knife which you claim is useless, but since you don't sharpen it.. it is rusty and doesn't cut very well.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Perhaps you should work on your communicating skills more thoroughly since what you said makes no sense As I said earlier, philosophy is not a trick of the mind to be active, its a necessity. You're using the knife which you claim is useless, but since you don't sharpen it.. it is rusty and doesn't cut very well

Ooops.. my mistake.. LOL.. my dad used to say: "it takes sense to make sense".. i think i see the problem, were you distracted by something? a loud noise, something shiny? read it again, focus this time.. keep at it, practice makes perfect..

 

Now, this is really no fun, but i'm fairly good at it.... if you care to, we can examine the issues with open minds and clarity, or we can have a go..

 

Be well..

[RongzomFan]

 

I propose the following for your consideration; The sun rises and sets, the moon orbits around our planet, the earth rotates on its axis

 

 

I have considered the very same thing for many "years".

 

None of these things occur in a way that proves that time exists.

Edited April 10, 2010 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

Okay...you are a thought form. I on the otherhand always exist

 

 

You existed before you were born?

 

How can something changeless and permanent be combined with a reality that is not? It is not possible.

 

You could benefit from reading Nagarjuna who the guy in your signature ripped off.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Let's be clear, i have a doctor's appointment.. i will refer to a device that displays the equally divided increments of the interval between subsequent light and dark events relative to this planet's rotation on its axis and the dispersal of light from its nearest star.. this measurement is referred to as 'Time", the word and the act of measurement are verifiable, so.. i will arrive at my doctor's office at the appointed 'Time'.. to deny that this system functions as designed, is.. well, i'll be kind.. nonsensical..

 

Be well..

[Marblehead]

you're describing the experience of the very subtle thoughtform 'I AM', thoughts don't have to be verbal. Was there awareness of this feeling of 'I'? Then that feeling is not I since you were aware of it.

 

No. My brain allow me to determine those parts of my body that are interconnected, including my brain. I, all my component parts is what is "I".

 

who's energies?

 

My energies. The energies created by this living organism.

 

You are nothing but a thoughtform, everything you describe happens spontaneously without any doer.

 

I am so very much more than a thoughtform. I am hands, I am feet, I am a penis, I am a brain (that is sometimes in the gutter), I am will, etc, etc.

 

Philosophy isn't about being comfortable, it's about figuring out the way things truly are.

 

While this is true I think it is important to be at peace with yourself - to accept, if you cannot change, the way things are.

 

Doership is an illusion and always has been, but things get done. Look at the last century alone.. so much has been done! So many innovations, so many wars, so many happenings! And yet.. no doers, just spontaneous intermingled happenings. Passive is a quality you give to the thoughtform of selflessness since you've never experienced it; you assume it's a certain way because the ego needs to feel that its a necessity. The mind loves to fantasize and see the alternative as a negative extreme. This is how we stay the same; this is why we don't change perception and see things as they are.

 

Nope. Look back in history. Events are always linked with the individual doer. Hitler caused the death of millions of innocent Jews. If there were no doers nature would just roll right along and do what it does.

 

Right, the illusion of control is a major facet of the ego. It needs to feel that its in control when it's only a thought-form. Can you control the heart beat? Can you move blood through veins and heal wounds? No, all of that happens spontaneously while the ego pretends that 'it's body' did something, implying a possessive nature. Did you choose to be born? Will you choose to die?

 

Okay. So I have an ego. Big deal. We all do to some degree. Regarding control, there are people who can control their heart beat - I have never tried. I do to a small degree increase the blood flow to my brain when I get dizzy after standing up. I have healed an ailment.

 

And yes, it was "I" who did these things. No, I could not possibly have chosen to be born because I did not exist before I was born. However, I could very easily choose when to die.

 

What can you really do? well...you can think, make decisions, act. right? but where do your choices come from? Where do the decisions come from? It's all under the hood, everything happens behind the scenes. You will get an idea and then make a choice, that is your perception of your experience, but that's only the tip of the iceberg. Getting an idea means the idea arose spontaneously out of nowhere. You don't create an idea; it comes to you. What do you actually create? 'Choice' is an illusion. An idea arises spontaneously, or an impulse, and decision-making is a process of abstractly thinking through a set filter, gained through experience, about the positives and negatives of a given choice, like a cost-benefit analysis.

 

Yes, it is all under the hood. That is where our brain is. But not everything happens behind the scene. I can choose to think about whatever I wish to think about. Getting an idea oftentimes arises as a result of thinking about something else as well. And I can choose to discard the ideas and thoughts I have. It is true that some thoughts are spontanious but there are some that are intentional. When we try to create something that we have never seen or heard of before we are exercising free will and intentional thought.

 

Yes, I will agree that rational thinking and choices are similar to cost-benefit analysis.

 

Thoughts carry a subconscious non-verbal assumption that there is a thinker, that there is a doer, someone in control. You will probably think that 'will' or 'intention' is the I, but that too is a non-verbal thought form containing the underlying assumption of 'I'. If you become mindful and observant of will, you'll see that it too is automatic. Wu-wei happens all the time, always, you don't make a choice of it. Choosing to act spontaneously is just the mind becoming aware of how things always are through acceptance and giving up the mental construct of "control".

 

But there is a thinker whenever there is a thought. There is an individual person with a functioning brain who is having the thought. Show me a thought without a thinker. You cannot.

 

And I still suggest that when I have a thought I can iether decide to continue thinking about the thought or I can ignore it and intentionally think about something else. I have to power to do that.

 

Self as a non-verbal assumptive mental construct lies quite deep within consciousness. It's like the drone in Hindu music which is always there but hard to pinpoint unless you focus on it, because it's a constant. But, when analyzed, eventually it can be seen as an object in awareness just like sensory perceptions and thoughts are. If there is awareness of 'I', then 'I' is not you. Since there can be awareness of everything, including the 'I', whatever is awared is not you. Thus there is nothing to cling to because there is no 'you' that can be found. There is only awareness as the infintely diverse manifestations experienced.

 

I disagree. If I am aware then there is an "I" that is aware. Now true, awareness is not all of what "I" am, only a small portion. And I will suggest that there are living beings that are not aware and yet they exist. So awareness in not the only criteria for existence.

 

[RongzomFan]

Greetings..

 

Let's be clear, i have a doctor's appointment.. i will refer to a device that displays the equally divided increments of the interval between subsequent light and dark events relative to this planet's rotation on its axis and the dispersal of light from its nearest star.. this measurement is referred to as 'Time", the word and the act of measurement are verifiable, so.. i will arrive at my doctor's office at the appointed 'Time'.. to deny that this system functions as designed, is.. well, i'll be kind.. nonsensical..

 

Be well..

 

 

not really. You will just refer to a device with a bunch of numbers on it or has a motor that turns 2-3 metal pieces.

Edited April 10, 2010 by alwayson

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

You existed before you were born?

You didn't?

 

Be well..

[C T]

Excellent post Xabir - 'Clarity' exemplified. I wish some of us who claim to be proponents and staunch flag-bearers of 'Clarity' could lay out their thoughts in the same simple ease with which you have shown in your last post.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

not really. You will just refer to a device with a bunch of numbers on it or has metal hands.

Well..

to deny that this system functions as designed, is.. well, i'll be kind.. nonsensical..

Change of heart!! You're an idiot! you just want to see yourself write on the pretty screen..

 

Be well..

[RongzomFan]

I am the idiot for living in reality and being realistic?

[Marblehead]

I agree with your statement, as quoted, Marblehead.. but, to state the 'Time' doesn't exist, is ignorant..

 

It is my suggestion that time is not a permanent thing. Yes, we calculate time. Our time is based on the movement of our solar system. Before the big bang, during the state of singularity (however long that lasted - hehehe) there was no time because there were no things in movement.

 

Astrophysicists talk about light-years, the time it takes light (on average) to travel from point A to point B.

 

I think I can fairly say that time does not matter to Tao. Time matters little to someone who has no responsibilities to anyone except themself. They eat when they are hungry (if they can find food) and sleep when they are tired.

 

And yes, in the 'real world' time is very important for most people. It is even important for nearly all other life forms because there is always a 'best' time to do things.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

"I" is literally a thoughtform.

 

Nope. "I" is everything that is attached to this body of mine, including my brain and the thoughtforms that emminate from it.

 

I Am. Therefore I think.

 

Peace & Love!

[RongzomFan]

TzuJanLi

 

Even though you called me an idiot, I will take the time to dumb it down for you.

 

Things are ALWAYS MOVING in the NOW, even time pieces. Get it yet?

Edited April 10, 2010 by alwayson

[Marblehead]

Okay...you are a thought form. I on the otherhand always exist

 

Me too Bro. Well, almost. I didn't exist untill I came into existence.

 

Peace & Love!

[RongzomFan]

Nope. "I" is everything that is attached to this body of mine, including my brain and the thoughtforms that emminate from it.

 

I Am. Therefore I think.

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

So if I cut off your leg, I cut your I?

 

Really??