There is no self

[idiot_stimpy]

but this again is also illusion because there was never an atman in the first place, it was all param atman and it still is

 

 

Going deeper, there is even no param atman in an absolute sense.

[nine tailed fox]

Going deeper, there is even no param atman in an absolute sense.

 

i think pram atman/tao is the only truth ?

[Maddie]

A delusion of what we really are.

Yea I think what we so often call "me or I" is actually the delusion of calling a thought "me" thinking the thought is "I" as opposed to conditioning that is not who we really are.

[idiot_stimpy]

i think pram atman/tao is the only truth ?

 

The reason its false is because you think it into existence.

 

However it is not without its uses if it allows one to lessen the grip on the identification with mind and body.

[ChiDragon]

And what is that aspect of self that wants notoriety, recognition, fame, and popularity? What is it about the self that gets angry or upset if it does not get this?

 

Selfless is a cultivation for a person to do away with ego, desires, and vanity. It is a person who wants to stay away from all these things(in red). It is a realm for a cultivated Taoist to attain a state of serenity.

[effilang]

I believe that the ego does not exist until the the post-celestial state develops after birth.

 

That means it is an organic, continuously evolving and growing construct.

It sustains itself by reinforcing it's own belief structures.

 

When original nature is displaced after birth, I think it is replaced by an empty potential, this is the raw spawn of the ego or consciousness. Since it grows with the growth of your own physical body and mind, it is there fore a result of the data absorbed by the 5 senses.

 

It absorbs sounds when our parents utter our new names out, sights when we see, tactile feeling when we touch, smells and tastes etc.

 

The ego is a data collector, and it builds new structures by combining the inflow of sense information and thus it creates constructs which exist within the confines of our currently accessible dimension.

 

The ego, I believe is nothing more than these systematic units. I think of the ego as a collective of protein like structures, but instead of amino-acids, you have sound, smell, touch, taste and sight, all grid locked together to create our individual realities.

 

This is why I suppose, people say reality is different for everyone.

Well of course it is, we have the deaf, blind, dumb, the handicapped etc.

It is only natural to assume that one persons sense of touch may be different, or that they may not hear as many sounds as you can, or that they may not see green the way you do. Yet, their reality is just as valid as yours.

 

I've found due to all this, that the easiest way to deconstruct the ego, is to do so piece by piece.

Sense by sense. It is not difficult, when you get use to it, yet people make a common mistake, by assuming that the EGO is one thing, like a John or a Lucy, like a brick or a ball, and because of this they look for one thing to eliminate, when it is in fact many things.

 

Original nature is non-discriminative, it doesn't care what anyobodies opinion is about anything, whether it is good or bad, high or low, feminine or masculine.

 

From this you can make a very simple deduction. Anything said or done or thought, that raises in you an emotional response, just feeling, any feeling, is therefore a reaction of the ego whom has just had one of it's "protein structures" or belief systems challenged.

 

This is invaluable feedback to have, because it allows us to identify the ego immediately and without mistake, but even more to eliminate that construct.

 

Hmmm.. ok. But how do you do the elimination?

Well, the trick is that you don't.

 

It is enough to "trap" it at the right moment and shine upon it your realization of its existence and it will fall apart of it's own.

 

This reminds me of a saying I read long ago when I was around 11:

" Laugh at the greatness of the beast and the beast will defeat itself."

 

This method works well.

Once you realize the ego is just a complex of sense data constructions, then there are numerous ways you can navigate to hack it down.

 

Another way is to simply deprive yourself of sense data. This will also starve the ego and bring about clarity.

 

This is a theory, but I think that if a person, by some chance were born without the capacity to taste, hear, smell, see or touch, they would not develop an ego at all and immortality would be very near to them with diligent practice.

Edited May 25, 2013 by effilang

[Marblehead]

but may be with our choice

Oh, believe me, I will not be going peacefully. Hehehe. I will fight every step of the way.

[Maddie]

I believe that the ego does not exist until the the post-celestial state develops after birth.

 

That means it is an organic, continuously evolving and growing construct.

It sustains itself by reinforcing it's own belief structures.

 

When original nature is displaced after birth, I think it is replaced by an empty potential, this is the raw spawn of the ego or consciousness. Since it grows with the growth of your own physical body and mind, it is there fore a result of the data absorbed by the 5 senses.

 

It absorbs sounds when our parents utter our new names out, sights when we see, tactile feeling when we touch, smells and tastes etc.

 

The ego is a data collector, and it builds new structures by combining the inflow of sense information and thus it creates constructs which exist within the confines of our currently accessible dimension.

 

The ego, I believe is nothing more than these systematic units. I think of the ego as a collective of protein like structures, but instead of amino-acids, you have sound, smell, touch, taste and sight, all grid locked together to create our individual realities.

 

This is why I suppose, people say reality is different for everyone.

Well of course it is, we have the deaf, blind, dumb, the handicapped etc.

It is only natural to assume that one persons sense of touch may be different, or that they may not hear as many sounds as you can, or that they may not see green the way you do. Yet, their reality is just as valid as yours.

 

I've found due to all this, that the easiest way to deconstruct the ego, is to do so piece by piece.

Sense by sense. It is not difficult, when you get use to it, yet people make a common mistake, by assuming that the EGO is one thing, like a John or a Lucy, like a brick or a ball, and because of this they look for one thing to eliminate, when it is in fact many things.

 

Original nature is non-discriminative, it doesn't care what anyobodies opinion is about anything, whether it is good or bad, high or low, feminine or masculine.

 

From this you can make a very simple deduction. Anything said or done or thought, that raises in you an emotional response, just feeling, any feeling, is therefore a reaction of the ego whom has just had one of it's "protein structures" or belief systems challenged.

 

This is invaluable feedback to have, because it allows us to identify the ego immediately and without mistake, but even more to eliminate that construct.

 

Hmmm.. ok. But how do you do the elimination?

Well, the trick is that you don't.

 

It is enough to "trap" it at the right moment and shine upon it your realization of its existence and it will fall apart of it's own.

 

This reminds me of a saying I read long ago when I was around 11:

" Laugh at the greatness of the beast and the beast will defeat itself."

 

This method works well.

Once you realize the ego is just a complex of sense data constructions, then there are numerous ways you can navigate to hack it down.

 

Another way is to simply deprive yourself of sense data. This will also starve the ego and bring about clarity.

 

This is a theory, but I think that if a person, by some chance were born without the capacity to taste, hear, smell, see or touch, they would not develop an ego at all and immortality would be very near to them with diligent practice.

Brilliant!

[Maddie]

As I was doing Vipassana today I focused a lot on the five skandhas and began to break them up and see how that this thing we call "self" is actually just a term we come up with for the functions of the skandhas.

 

Well anyway specifically I observed how that form was observed by sensation and then how that was further refined by conception. When conception led to volition I then saw how things really got interesting. This is where judgments arose about the value we place upon things due to our conditioning. And then of course consciousness causes us to be aware of the results of our volition.

 

Well out of that what was particularly noticeable was the volition part of it, and specifically the values and judgments of society and how we take those on as part of our conditioning and then mistake that and those thoughts for being "us". It was interesting to differentiate that we are not our thoughts. Anyways I saw how so much of my behavior and choices was/is based upon the level of value that we place upon something. Because we value something we seek after it, and when we get it we feel good because we have added value to ourselves and if we don't get that we feel bad because we think that we have lessened in value.

 

Of course the real crux of the issue was to realize that these values are built upon a "self" that does not even really exist, so therefore the legitimacy of these values seemed to diminish.