teachers

[neimad]

just curious on people's opinions on teachers or masters?

 

it's my opinion that by considering someone else your teacher or master you give up your own personal power to understand and you end up proscribing to someone elses doctrine, which more than likely you will misinterpret.

i think it's of importance to have what i would more consider coaches, role-models and people to remind you about your spirituality and your path. they lead by example, offer encouragement but never ask to be treated as anything more than your equal.

 

we are all equal and by putting someone else above you, all you are really doing is lowering yourself.

 

they may be an enlightened being, but so are we.... we just forgot!

 

anyways open to debate

[allan-in-china]

just curious on people's opinions on teachers or masters?

 

it's my opinion that by considering someone else your teacher or master you give up your own personal power to understand and you end up proscribing to someone elses doctrine, which more than likely you will misinterpret.

i think it's of importance to have what i would more consider coaches, role-models and people to remind you about your spirituality and your path. they lead by example, offer encouragement but never ask to be treated as anything more than your equal.

 

we are all equal and by putting someone else above you, all you are really doing is lowering yourself.

 

they may be an enlightened being, but so are we.... we just forgot!

 

anyways open to debate

 

You're probably right, this is probably again a case of attaching different meanings to different words. My "teacher" after he first taught me I asked him in Chinese if I should call him "shi fu" the "teacher-father"/"master", and he said just to call him by his name. He has said he is just someone further down the path who is helping me, a friend.

 

I don't really consider taking a teacher to be putting anyone above me, but I believe that a teacher's guidance is extremely valuable, because in so many cases if we just act on our initially ego-driven feelings we will be changing practices every five minutes and never actually reach any depth.

 

All I can say is if my "teacher"/friend didn't guide me, I can imagine I would never have gotten anywhere. But that is my belief, if you ask him I am sure he would say I would have done fine on my own, he just helped nudge me in the right direction which is possibly also true, because we all find what we are looking for, maybe this was just a shorter path, maybe it was longer?

 

With my tai chi teacher, I believe it is the same, the titles are different, because he will be taking me as a "disciple" and I will be taking him as a "teacher-father"/"master" but overall I am still the person making the choice, if he tells me something, I have a choice to believe or disbelieve, or test and see for myself. Or if he tells me to practice something, it is me who has the final call.

 

In most cases with people further down the path, because I am stubborn, I have disbelieved most things they have said, but the seed was planted, and eventually through my own practice I found they were right. But I believe everything has to come back to your own experience.

 

Anyways, I think only the student can give away power, the teacher/master can never take it.

 

Allan

[rex]

Allan has said it all really. It depends on what you want to learn and what they have to teach. A few techniques here and there? A philosophy and practice of health? An established spiritual path? The approach and relationship will be different depending on what is sought. With an established spiritual path it is usual to expect some form of long term relationship and mutual commitment. With do it yourself eclecticism the relationship may be more transient and you have to know what you're doing and why you're doing it. If someone's got the capacity for this, all well and good. After all our innermost nature, however you want to define it, is just as good as the master's innermost nature. As Michael Winn says spiritual lineages want people to embody what they have to offer and why not by-pass human organisations if they get in the way? (http://forum.healingdao.com/general/message/638/)

 

A good spiritual teacher inspires, provokes and instigates. They make you aware of things that you should be aware of but are unaware. They can open doors and provide access to resources that will protect and support you through the inevitable difficulties that will arise from oneself and the environment.

 

Being in the presence of a good teacher can throw up all sorts of negative feelings but all the presence is doing is showing you the state of your being. The difficulty here is distinguishing between genuine alarm bells and the resistance of entrenched negativity. Can you mistrust your mistrust? Before doing so check out the 'senior' students, do they embody what the teacher teaches? Are other students cliquely and exclusive? Whats the vibe like at gatherings etc? Sometimes the teacher is more liberal than than the students!

 

Rex

Edited March 7, 2006 by rex

[Trunk]

Glad you brought this up, ,

its one of my pet-peeves that this topic is under-appreciated.

 

just curious on people's opinions on teachers or masters?

...

we are all equal and by putting someone else above you, all you are really doing is lowering yourself.

 

they may be an enlightened being, but so are we.... we just forgot!

I've studied with several.. advanced meditators, in a western context. And I've done reading from various traditions.

 

As far as mystical progression, the Guru-disciple relationship (or whatever you want to call it) is invaluable. The energy and states-of-mind transference that you get from sitting regularly with a genuinely advanced meditator saves you lifetimes of effort. And, imo, this is rather an understatement than an overstatement.

 

That said, the modern western teachers that I've studied with encouraged (both by general tone and explicitly) that you're your own person, and they expected us to act as independent adults (make our own choices, etc.) in our own lives - as well as act as a adult with our own root in relation to the teacher.

 

It is within the inner relationship with the Guru that 99.99% of the teachings occur: during meditation. During that time the teacher can expose you to states of mind, and make corrections & upgrades in your energetic configuration that save you immeasurable time and effort. The classic position on this is the real serious progress just does not happen without this sort of assistance, and - personally - I agree. There is skill that gets developed in receiving these sorts of transmissions, and it doesn't happen without blending your mind-stream with that of the teacher-Guru (during the interval of meditation), following his/her lead inwardly, and submitting to their corrections to your structure (again, during meditations, - which can, at times, be physically and energetically painful during the correction), while - at the same time - maintaining your own focus and integrity of being. All this happens silently, in meditation.

 

All your warnings of, .. basically giving up your own root, are true: you shouldn't. And some teachers, and a lot of students, fall into that trap. Its counter-productive. But the inner dynamics of working with a genuinely advanced teacher .. don't throw the baby out with the bath-water on this one.

 

Trunk

Edited March 7, 2006 by Trunk

[Mandrake]

Trunk - couldn't have said it better.

 

Meditation is a very special type of skill, which, like the others, need effort and time to be mastered.

If you're serious about learning an instrument, you could read a beginners book, and then "play" and be proud of being a musician - no, rather, you would seek out a teacher who would press and motivate you, teach you the right technique and posture so that you don't hurt yourself, push you with harder pieces that teach you something new, give you the "secrets of the trade" when you get ready to understand them, and so on.

Now, meditation is a bit harder than learning an instrument.

 

It takes years and years of practicing when playing an instrument before you reach a plateau, a breakthrough, where the outer form dissolves and you begin working with music directly, with a more direct contact with the heart of music.

 

This is also why I like to have at least one practice that I stick to, religiosly (well chosen off course), so that I have the chance to get into the depth with something.

 

Just some rantings

Mandrake

[allan-in-china]

Agree with basically everything said, good points by everyone. With regard to Trunk's points, I feel they are very correct. I think you really need to experience what it is like working directly with a good teacher to really appreciate it. If I had never experienced it myself, I would probably think it was all junk just written by some guy in a book looking for students. In fact, going back in my experience a few years, I used to think I could do it all on my own... Now I think I was wrong.

[Emelgee]

I think it is important not to be too prescriptive about the terms "master" or "teachers" or what our particular role may be in such a relationship at any given point in time.

 

I read this book called "The Tao of Mentoring" (I can't remember who wrote it) but the gist of the book was essentially that mentoring is a mutual process. I may start having little knowledge on one subject so I seek a teacher and while he helps me, somehow I help or teach him either through the process of learning (which possibly opens the teacher to new concepts). Or, it transpires that I know a lot about a different subject my teacher would like to learn about and suddenly, I am sharing my knowledge and have assumed the "teacher" role for a little while.

 

People will intuitively know when they are in a mutual-mentoring relationship and such roles do not have to remain the exclusive domain of one or the other person.

[Lozen]

This is really interesting because it's exactly what's been on my mind lately and I agree that it depends... With my martial arts instructor, he told me not to call him Sifu, but to call him "Coach." I've asked him for advice on stuff that's only peripherally related to martial arts, and he said, basically, "I can't help you with that." There's a whole article on 24fightingchickens.com recently about how martial arts teachers are only coaches, nothing more, nothing less. I'm not sure if this is true with every martial arts teacher, but if it is with many of them I don't think it's a problem.

 

But with Warriorschool I feel like it's totally different. For a while there it drove me nuts that they would tell me to do things without giving me the reasons, especially when I came up with all kinds of clever arguments in my head about why what they were saying was wrong. I just figure if I am an adult, why can't I make my own decisions? But then it's like, if I don't trust them or the path they are leading me on, or the process, why did I ask them for help in the first place? I feel like if I want to get further on the path I need to just drop enough ego to stop making judgements and let go of the constant doubting and arguing that goes on in my head and learn to be still and to trust.

 

Also I feel like by just doing what a teacher tells you, you will know from experience what works for you and what doesn't.

[neimad]

i study cheng hsin and the guy i train with considers himself a 'facilitator' and not a teacher. he has more experience so he facilitates the class (although sometimes he gets us to take turns leading it) but emphasises that we always teach ourselves through direct experience.

 

i also understand what trunk says and that a teacher would be someone you consider a 'pillar' that is someone who reminds you of your spirituality and provides a source of focus.

 

noone can ever give you an experience. to ever be worthwhile you need to gain it for yourself. hence we are all our own teachers.

 

but those further along the path can give us guidance and little nudges without which it might take us a lot longer to find the way.

 

perhaps they are the light that illuminates part of the cave so we can see for ourselves what's inside?

[Pietro]

just curious on people's opinions on teachers or masters?

 

it's my opinion that by considering someone else your teacher or master you give up your own personal power to understand and you end up proscribing to someone elses doctrine, which more than likely you will misinterpret.

i think it's of importance to have what i would more consider coaches, role-models and people to remind you about your spirituality and your path. they lead by example, offer encouragement but never ask to be treated as anything more than your equal.

 

we are all equal and by putting someone else above you, all you are really doing is lowering yourself.

 

they may be an enlightened being, but so are we.... we just forgot!

 

anyways open to debate

 

I was born in a liberal politicaly left family. So I had some difficulties with the concept of a teacher. And I am speaking about teacher here, not Guru, which is supposed to embody God and is a totally different ball game.

 

I would treat all my 'teachers' as friends, or brothers. With a familiarity that few other student would dare or would posses. They seemed to enjoy it. And for this it took me a long time to see how wrong I was. And the effect of my dumbness was felt in the fact that I grew slower than how I could have if I had respected my teachers more.

 

The whole solution is in hexagram 4 of the I-Ching.

 

It is not the teacher who look for you, it is you who look for the teacher.

And we already have a very clear asimmetry. It is NOT a symmetric relation. One side is balanced, happy, and unneedy. The other is confused, full of desire, and full of doubts. They are not equal. They might be equal in potentiality (which is also false, btw), but surely not in whatthey are right now.

 

As such you don't loose power to the teacher... you have already lost power to begin with. The teacher is there to help you regain this power.

 

Teachers are generally teachers of a specific subject. The subject can be life itself, but no human being will ever teach you everything abouth everything. At least after you are 2 years old.

 

When you have found the teacher, you ask him or her to teach you. Humbly, direcly and clearly.

Something as simple as: you know this, and I don't, would you please teach me?

usually works miracle. I know of very few people who answer no to such a request. And some do because they feel they have to say no a certain number of time. But generally everybody heart answer yes at such question if it is done with an open honest, childish heart. Please teach me.

 

Then you do what he tells you to do. Still you retain your power in the sense that you always take the responsability of everything you do. If he asks you to do something that you don't feel like you can back off. Maybe you are learning sexual practices, and your teacher tells you that the best way is to have sex with him. It might be true, it might be false. You do not accept, and then sue him for having abused of the relationship. You decide by yourself, and then take full responsability of your actions.

 

If you have a question you ask. You get the answer, and then YOUSHUTTHEFUCKUP! You go away with your answer.

 

You don't ask him again (although clarifications are possible).

You don't ask other people. All this will lead to confusion. Get one answer, apply that, and if that does not work, after you ask why.

 

Also, you don't look in the plate of your teacher. Maybe he is teaching you how to be chaste, while he is having sex with 5 women every night. Provided that you know that he knows how to be chaste, that is enough. YOU DO NOT REQUIRE HIM TO BE YOU. Nor do you require him to live in every moment what you are passing through in this moment. Some disciplines are only needed for a certain time. Some people follow a discipline just to decide that they don't want it in their life. They still know how to do it. I remember tai ji teachers who would not practice Tai Ji at all any more. But from time to time they would do. Some part of Tai Ji was integrated. He still was a teacher.

 

Once you have learned all you feel you needed from a teacher, you thank him, and go away. And when in some years time a confused person comes and says:"you know this, and I don't, would you please teach me?" you teach him. And you do it for free, as in this way you are paying back life itself.

 

If you follow those advice you will learn rapidly and fast, and will never be abused by any teacher.

[Ian]

I was born in a liberal politicaly left family. So I had some difficulties with the concept of a teacher. And I am speaking about teacher here, not Guru, which is supposed to embody God and is a totally different ball game.

 

I would treat all my 'teachers' as friends, or brothers. With a familiarity that few other student would dare or would posses. They seemed to enjoy it. And for this it took me a long time to see how wrong I was. And the effect of my dumbness was felt in the fact that I grew slower than how I could have if I had respected my teachers more.

 

The whole solution is in hexagram 4 of the I-Ching.

 

It is not the teacher who look for you, it is you who look for the teacher.

And we already have a very clear asimmetry. It is NOT a symmetric relation. One side is balanced, happy, and unneedy. The other is confused, full of desire, and full of doubts. They are not equal. They might be equal in potentiality (which is also false, btw), but surely not in whatthey are right now.

 

As such you don't loose power to the teacher... you have already lost power to begin with. The teacher is there to help you regain this power.

 

Teachers are generally teachers of a specific subject. The subject can be life itself, but no human being will ever teach you everything abouth everything. At least after you are 2 years old.

 

When you have found the teacher, you ask him or her to teach you. Humbly, direcly and clearly.

Something as simple as: you know this, and I don't, would you please teach me?

usually works miracle. I know of very few people who answer no to such a request. And some do because they feel they have to say no a certain number of time. But generally everybody heart answer yes at such question if it is done with an open honest, childish heart. Please teach me.

 

Then you do what he tells you to do. Still you retain your power in the sense that you always take the responsability of everything you do. If he asks you to do something that you don't feel like you can back off. Maybe you are learning sexual practices, and your teacher tells you that the best way is to have sex with him. It might be true, it might be false. You do not accept, and then sue him for having abused of the relationship. You decide by yourself, and then take full responsability of your actions.

 

If you have a question you ask. You get the answer, and then YOUSHUTTHEFUCKUP! You go away with your answer.

 

You don't ask him again (although clarifications are possible).

You don't ask other people. All this will lead to confusion. Get one answer, apply that, and if that does not work, after you ask why.

 

Also, you don't look in the plate of your teacher. Maybe he is teaching you how to be chaste, while he is having sex with 5 women every night. Provided that you know that he knows how to be chaste, that is enough. YOU DO NOT REQUIRE HIM TO BE YOU. Nor do you require him to live in every moment what you are passing through in this moment. Some disciplines are only needed for a certain time. Some people follow a discipline just to decide that they don't want it in their life. They still know how to do it. I remember tai ji teachers who would not practice Tai Ji at all any more. But from time to time they would do. Some part of Tai Ji was integrated. He still was a teacher.

 

Once you have learned all you feel you needed from a teacher, you thank him, and go away. And when in some years time a confused person comes and says:"you know this, and I don't, would you please teach me?" you teach him. And you do it for free, as in this way you are paying back life itself.

 

If you follow those advice you will learn rapidly and fast, and will never be abused by any teacher.

 

Nice. Like it.

[三江源]

.

Edited April 18, 2015 by 三江源

[11:33]

How are you going to learn ANYTHING without a teacher?

 

IMHO, you're up shit's creek without a teacher.

 

You may be up shit's creek with a teacher too, if they don't know what they are talking about, and then you listen to them and emulate them.

 

Which is why you have to choose your teacher with some serious consideration.

[Sunya]

if you want to become a doctor, which is a better solution.. going to medical school, studying with the best in the field, having a mentor to guide you and learn as much as you can? or figure it all out yourself by practicing on cadavers through trial and error?

[11:33]

Cadavers man! Duh.

 

<couldn't help having a little fun>

[contrivedname!]

if you want to become a doctor, which is a better solution.. going to medical school, studying with the best in the field, having a mentor to guide you and learn as much as you can? or figure it all out yourself by practicing on cadavers through trial and error?

 

why not both? why confine yourself to either extreme?

 

the following is just some hypothetical musing but here it goes:

 

i have seen some folks on here (cant remember, nor do i care who) claim that it is possible to get "transmissions" into "lineages" or "energetic states" simply by seeing a picture or video of someone or reading something they typed on the net. True or not, following that line of logic, couldn't then, with the correct state of mind, you recieve a "transmission" by reading a sutra or the daodejing or the bible or something from whatever "practice" you associate yourself with (actually i think the diamond sutra implies that this is possible)?

 

sure, it may be easier to have a living someone hold your hand and wipe your ass, but may be for some that takes the fun out of being "wrong" at times and thus directly learning from their errors through their own effort (not saying that everyone learns from their errors). when i type the word fun please dont immediately jump to the conclusion that you should purposely be "wrong" for the fun of learning out of it.

 

i feel like i beat this subject to death here at TB, but the "you must have a living human teacher to follow to attain anything spiritual" mentality deserves refutation. There are many wonderful teachers out there, of this i have no doubt, but it simply isnt the only narrow path to whateverment, the path is wide open, folks simply like to narrow it with their ego-driven mind. and like 11:33 points out

" You may be up shit's creek with a teacher too, if they don't know what they are talking about, and then you listen to them and emulate them." so really it seems that clinging to teachers may be just as dangerous, if not more, than clinging to no-teachers (both would be forms of attachment, seemingly)

 

-Chris

[Martial Development]

...It is not the teacher who look for you, it is you who look for the teacher.

And we already have a very clear asimmetry. It is NOT a symmetric relation...

 

Very good answer!

[11:33]

My two cents for food for thought -->

 

At least regarding qigong, which is my main source of experience so far, learning from a teacher, preferably a skilled master is a BIG difference. Of course not all teachers or masters are alike in their ability to help you acquire the skills. A master can transmit energy to you or open different energy points which assist you in going deeper in the art faster, as well as giving you a foothold so to speak into what the art is all about, so you really grok it. Learning from a book, they can tell you everything in words, but learning in person they can convey to you experiential states.

 

When I first learned qigong from my primary Sifu he taught us some things I wouldn't have been able to get out of a book, because he taught them by energy transmission. He somehow projected onto the students certain skills, like tapping energy from the cosmos, or directing energy anywhere in the body to nourish organs or open the meridians, etc. The point is that to acquire these skills on my own I wouldn't even known the first place to start. I probably could have, on my own, over time of course...

 

You can learn things on your own, then also look for the best teachers, then go to them and take it deeper. No matter what in any endeavor there is always a balance between the teacher teaching, and the student advancing and progressing on their own, so I don't think it is an either or of course!

 

And to contrivedname!, I am pretty sure you CAN get transmissions by tuning into teachers, books, materials etc like you suggest. Most people may not know how, but I think it could be done, so hey, go for it! Just remember to make sure you really ARE getting the transmission, and not just fooling yourself into thinking you are. You could get confirmation perhaps from someone who is further along the path at some time, perhaps, to check if you are getting it [such as consulting an intermediate or advanced student along the path, just a thought...]

 

All the Best

[contrivedname!]

 

 

And to contrivedname!, I am pretty sure you CAN get transmissions by tuning into teachers, books, materials etc like you suggest. Most people may not know how, but I think it could be done, so hey, go for it! Just remember to make sure you really ARE getting the transmission, and not just fooling yourself into thinking you are. You could get confirmation perhaps from someone who is further along the path at some time, perhaps, to check if you are getting it [such as consulting an intermediate or advanced student along the path, just a thought...]

 

All the Best

 

excellent pointe, that is definately the tricky part whether or not you actually got a "transmission" or whether you got an idea of the teaching, but filter it into a form of spiritual materialism.

 

and:

 

"You could get confirmation perhaps from someone who is further along the path at some time, perhaps, to check if you are getting it [such as consulting an intermediate or advanced student along the path, just a thought...]"

 

sounds like a good middle path, but again, if you seek out the wrong person they may tell you the wrong thing (or you may build an attachment to such a "confirmation"), so really that's part of why i think there is the zen emphasis on "there is no buddha beyond mind"

[Birch]

simply by seeing a picture or video of someone or reading something they typed on the net.

 

This the person who is checking the thing out ('s) own doing. What this could mean could go pretty far;-)

 

Direct transmission seems like a better link-up. But still rife with potential for misunderstanding.