Why I am against 'powers'

[Sloppy Zhang]

Well I suppose I should throw in my own perspective, as "powers" was (and likely still is) a huge motivating factor for me to get to begin....

 

All my life I've been into stuff like Star Wars, that one is probably a large influence and well known by a lot of people. There is also a Japanese comic book series called Shaman King, and that's been another huge influence on my life and perspectives. So my whole life I've been open about "other stuff."

 

It all started in earnest when I was probably about 16 or 17, and I picked up the book You Are Psychic, pretty cool, but a lot of use for mental constructs. I decided that I needed a clearer mind, so I turned to the practice of Zen.

 

Then, somewhere down the line, I came across a guy named Wan Qi on youtube, who goes by the name yogameditation (well he actually has a lot of names, but anyway) he got me interested in manifestation.

 

Now, on top of being a believer, I have always been a pretty rational minded skeptic. I've heard of stuff like confirmation bias, all the effects that can go into how you experience a situation, and I've always been really careful about controlling variables, trying to look at everything and not ignore stuff I didn't want to see, and not blow out of proportion the stuff I did see.

 

On two separate occasions I tried manifestation and against all odds they worked. It was amazing. My friends noticed these things too, and made a lot of comments about how this stuff seem to come to me "out of the blue." I was astonished that this stuff worked, mostly because I didn't EXPECT it to work. The whole time I tried, I thought "this isn't going to work", and within minutes it worked.

 

Then I started to think of karma, of my place in this universe, of the lives and events that I have changed. I had no way of knowing the consequences of my actions. I was scared, I guess. Yes, I felt bad because, in a way, I was being selfish. But in another way, I had no idea how I was affecting others. As much as I want to get stuff for myself, I also don't want to do anything in such a way that I will hurt someone. I wanted a method that I could use in which I'd be in complete control of all the forces and work, and be able to see all the strings to know whether I was pulling on one that could hurt someone.

 

About the same time that I got introduced to Taoism by Wan Qi, was when I came here. At first I wanted to learn the microcosmic orbit, got all kinds of things. While reading a review of one of Yang Jwing Ming's books (an author whose works I have previously read on tai chi), someone mentioned Bruce's Energy Gates book as something to read before the MCO, the book got good reviews, and I got it and started to work with it.

 

I have always been a careful person, that if I am going to do something I was going to do it the right way. I don't want to get power that is going to screw me over. I've always been a socially adjusted person who's been pretty comfortable in my body and in my own mind. I didn't want to jump into astral projection and all this stuff, so Bruce's "slow and steady" approach in the book seemed to work.

 

But I became dissatisfied with it when I decided I wanted a method in which I'd "see all the strings". That's when I came across Franz Bardon's "Initiation Into Heremtics." I had never seen such a complete step by step guide to pretty much everything I have ever wanted. Everything I've wanted to do was explained, it was all out there. A lot of authors (Bruce included), allude to a lot of things, hint at a lot of things, but never really explain a lot of things (though I will say that with some reflection, thought, intuition, and experience you can figure out exactly how to do some stuff that is hinted at). The problem was Bardon's stuff didn't vibe with me. At all. That was really frustrating because it was so close to everything I had wanted, but it was inaccessible. It was like there was a door I wanted to go through but there was a fence in front of me, I could reach out and open the door and see inside but couldn't get through the fence.

 

That's when I started to deal with health problems and mental problems. I started getting more obsessive compulsive, and I started feeling like crap a lot. I figured Bardon's stuff wasn't for me. But Bruce's stuff wasn't really getting me what I wanted. I bounced around and tried to find something else, tried psi for a while. Nothing was as complete as Bardon's stuff, but nothing felt as comfortable as Bruce's stuff. It was one or the other.

 

In the end I settled with Bruce's stuff, the stuff that "felt right" even though I don't know where it'll take me. I still want powers, haven't given that up, but I don't want to hurt anyone, that's for sure. I don't want to do stuff that is going to "rock the boat" and screw up other peoples' lives just so I can get what I want. It would be really convenient if Bardon's stuff worked out for me, but I guess that's life

[Taiji Bum]

It's always seemed to be me that psychic abilities were as natural as our arms and legs, except we live in a world that chooses to crawl on all fours.

 

The world cries, "Dont stand up! Its unnatural and a distraction! If you start walking around and free up your arms who knows what kind of mischief you will get into. Its safer to keep crawling around in the mud with the rest of us! Dont be different!"

 

But you know what? We used to live in that world. A long time ago we stopped being knuckle dragging cave dwellers and started to walk upright to the point of walking among the stars! I think our next step is to free our minds and only God knows what we will do then but I bet it will be even more impressive and GOOD than walking among the stars.

[That Guy]

It's always seemed to be me that psychic abilities were as natural as our arms and legs, except we live in a world that chooses to crawl on all fours.

 

The world cries, "Dont stand up! Its unnatural and a distraction! If you start walking around and free up your arms who knows what kind of mischief you will get into. Its safer to keep crawling around in the mud with the rest of us! Dont be different!"

 

But you know what? We used to live in that world. A long time ago we stopped being knuckle dragging cave dwellers and started to walk upright to the point of walking among the stars! I think our next step is to free our minds and only God knows what we will do then but I bet it will be even more impressive and GOOD than walking among the stars.

 

Well, what about the crazy man who believes he can fly? I'm sure there must be one out there, but I'm also sure hes not flying around.

 

If such powers are real, I think it must take more than a free mind to use them. Unless the belief of the majority that it is not possible stops the whole world from doing it.

The only way it would become possible again is if 51% of the world became believers.

 

Or maybe if you can somehow shield yourself from the belief of the world, making anything possible within your sphere of influence.

Maybe meditation expands your sphere of influence outwards, and when it extends far enough, and is dense enough, you can do what you want within it

[NeiChuan]

maybe if you can somehow shield yourself from the belief of the world, making anything possible within your sphere of influence.

Maybe meditation expands your sphere of influence outwards, and when it extends far enough, and is dense enough, you can do what you want within it

 

Thats pretty awesome I must say. Supposedly when you meditate it does influence your community.

[fizix]

Thank you for your honest post Jane, I'm sure many have had similar initial goals and experiences but might be unwilling to admit to them.

The pursuit of powers may be seen as a false route, but I know that for more than one person, the steps taken on this false route were also the first steps taken on what would eventually become the true path of the Way.

 

Many wander to the left, but then the light veers them right.

[That Guy]

Thats pretty awesome I must say. Supposedly when you meditate it does influence your community.

Thanks, and I sure hope so, because I want to believe!

But you know, it ain't easy to just believe (for me anyway) when the world works the way it does (or seems to)

This cool concept came to me in a strange dream actually, was it all Fantasy or Revelation? If I ever find out I'll let you know

[Spirit Ape]

Ma Yu,

 

Moving paper inside a glass my teacher can do or could do at anytime I have him on video doing it, its a chi projection and is used for healing and fighting depending on intent. He was a known or his abilties in hollywood and was a healer for many big name stars and fighters. Why would you say its useless?

 

Also where is the latest thread of moving paper? Is there a clip of you moving paper inside a glass?

 

Garry aka ape

[Kunlun Enthusiast]

Ma Yu,

 

Moving paper inside a glass my teacher can do or could do at anytime I have him on video doing it, its a chi projection and is used for healing and fighting depending on intent. He was a known or his abilties in hollywood and was a healer for many big name stars and fighters. Why would you say its useless?

 

Also where is the latest thread of moving paper? Is there a clip of you moving paper inside a glass?

 

Garry aka ape

 

 

What is useful? Moving paper inside a glass? I just did that lol

 

And he heals only Hollywood personalities?

[3bob]

To wisely help move a soul from a crushing hell realm and into a more free type of learning realm is of a great power of spiritual compassion in action!

[Spirit Ape]

The paper is inside the glass and the glass is upside down so no air can get in if so well done?

 

ape

 

Also make a clip so we can all see it please?

[SFJane]

And in the end your compass righted itself. Is that by coincidence, or just how things tend to work?

 

I can't say for absolute certainty. Not everyone who seeks finds. Not everyone in hell gets free in their lifetime. Maybe I was just lucky.

 

Hi Jane, Depends on what you consider a power? We all have it in us, its part of us just unlocking using the correct tools is all you need. Attaining powers isnt a bad thing thats all im saying!

 

Ape

 

Hi Ape. Would I be correct in stating that the word 'power' is fully interchangeable with the word 'siddhi' for purposes of describing such phenomena?

 

What I believe Ape means[i could be wrong] are effective methods that bring true siddhis. You know, like Wim Hoff, swami Rama, Prahlad Jani, John Chang, Chunny Lyn, ecetera have.

 

Would I be correct in assuming that neither you, Enouch, nor you, Ape, disagree with the definition of siddhi currently at Wiki?

 

'True Siddhis' I assume you know what the moving goalpost fallacy/ No True Scots fallacy is.

 

Rama. No documentation of his alleged feats is available to scrutinize in a moment's notice. He did a few neat tricks with his body under study. With that said, I've slowed my heart and breathing down as well as changed my body temp. I don't say that to denigrate his ability but it's not as awesome as you think. Useful if you got bit by multiple venomous critters and you had to wait for hours before an antidote I suppose.

 

Prahlad Jani has been declared a village fraud by the Indian Rationalist Society. I myself have taken a five day fast without any nourishment under the supervision of a nurse and I was fine. Ten days is not as big a deal as you think and he was losing weight, same I did, during my fast. At any rate, fasting seems to be his one and only trick. Not really impressive.

 

Wim Hoff is a one trick pony. I do not say that to diminish his cold endurance feats but that's all he has. Useful if you survive a plane crash in Siberia I guess. Filed under 'nifty'.

 

Chunny Lyn? Does not produce results on google.

 

John Chang. His chop stick is beveled for crying out loud. Freeze his chopstick video at :16 and it's the best view of the angled tip. I'll give him a chopstick with a flat tip and give him plywood instead of particle board to go through, Guaranteed stopper. Particle board is really easy to drive things through. Try it yourself with a ten penny nail. Watch his thumb move constantly somewhat hidden by his hand. He searched for a good spot to go through and started drilling his beveled chopstick. Come on!

 

Newspaper trick, pure chicanery. Touching someone and making them twitch? I've seen that one with lesser practitioners who were just learning chi kung and acupuncture theory. Then there's another chopstick demo. The tip didn't like the Formica but coming from the bottom it was not a barrier. LEDs require a very small amount of voltage to light up. I am sure Penn and Teller could demo the LED trick with a little prep time .Would have been nice to see the chopstick and table from all angles before the demo though. JC is the easiest one to debunk because he over did it with the clever tricks. That's not nei kung. It's showmanship. JC is a cultivation fraud but a skilled sleight of hand artist. Then a ghost told him to stop doing demos? Please. How convenient. Come on guys!

 

Look, my dad has lived in Hong Kong or in the Phils his entire adult life. Malaysia and the Phils are known for their fake magicians, fake doctors and fake psi tricks. Your average Malaysian and Philippine villager is not the most educated person walking around out there and is easily impressed by skilled showmanship. Any one of you TBers with a year of chi kung training and a knowledge of cool 7th grade science class tricks could go to Malaysia and impress the hell out of the locals.

 

Of all the names you dropped enouch, only Wim Hof impresses and he only has one trick. While the siddhi of the gentlemen you listed may be accepted by some. I assure you, not by all. I don't consider those things as 'powers'. Wim Hof is interesting but I've done standing chi kung training in the middle of a Great Lakes winter and managed to make steam come off me (I was wearing clothes). None of this stuff is really all that far out there although I give more props to Rama and Hoff than to Jani and Chang.

 

You know what I think a really impressive demo of nei kung is? A guy by the name of Bruce Frantzis shattered his spine, deformed his skull and cracked his pelvis in a car wreck. He refused a spinal fusion and managed to heal himself with nei kung. That is a useful 'power'.

Edited April 5, 2010 by SFJane

[Sloppy Zhang]

You know what I think a really impressive demo of nei kung is? A guy by the name of Bruce Frantzis shattered his spine, deformed his skull and cracked his pelvis in a car wreck. He refused a spinal fusion and managed to heal himself with nei kung. That is a useful 'power'.

 

What did his doctors have to say about that, I wonder? Did they even care after he said no, or did they follow his progress?

 

It also calls to mind the story about Kan from Kunlun who healed himself after apparently being paralyzed by staying in "hold the ball" posture while watching tv. He was on some known rugby team, and I would think that healing yourself from paralysis is newsworthy- or at least article worthy, not to mention something that would have some amount of people going, "hey, how did that happen?"

 

Or do people think it's all just a misdiagnosis or a fluke?

[SFJane]

This simplest reason I can give that John Chang's demos are so problematic is that he is in control of the demo. Doesn't that strike you folks as odd? The scientists listed tested him with a multimeter? I learned how to use a multimeter when I took an electronics class at Voc Tech during high school. You can play with settings and the leads and make all sorts of numbers happen. That was appalling bad 'science'.

 

JC presents the demos rather then having his demos be done under optimal conditions.

 

Let's pretend I am James Randi's assistant trying to set up experiment protocol. I am not going to let JC do prep work out of sight prior to the experiment. Then we go through his list of tricks one by one.

 

LED test. I bring the diodes. I'll pick a variety of LEDs with different resistances or voltage requirements and he can light those up. We do this experiment, not in JC's clinic but in a clean room or as close to one as we can get with cameras covering multiple angles.

 

Chopsticks through tables. I'll bring the chopsticks and different kinds of boards. I think we would find real quick that it only works when JC has a chance to bevel the tip and uses particle board (which has no grain).

 

Newspaper ignition. I'll bring the paper and we'll do the test in a clean room. If he ignites the newspaper, then we move on to Kleenex, fax paper, dried grass. It would be pretty telling if JC can only ignite newspaper that he handled out of sight.

 

The journalists in the JC vid were very intellectually dishonest with their filming. We see JC tear up newspaper. Then we cut straight to outside. Where was the control over JC and the camera footage between the tearing of the newspaper indoors to igniting it outdoors?

 

It's bad journalism and appalling bad science to have allowed JC to choose the time, place and materials for his demos. I don't know why his videos get so much Ooo and Ahhh. Penn and Teller and James Randi would expose that guy so fast under controlled circumstance. Then JC would probably complain that the chi was bad or that the clean room short circuited his chi or that ghosts were interfering. These folks are all alike with their excuses for why their stuff doesn't work under strict protocols to avoid cheating and prep work done beforehand.

Edited April 6, 2010 by SFJane

[Ya Mu]

Ma Yu,

 

Moving paper inside a glass my teacher can do or could do at anytime I have him on video doing it, its a chi projection and is used for healing and fighting depending on intent. He was a known or his abilties in hollywood and was a healer for many big name stars and fighters. Why would you say its useless?

 

Also where is the latest thread of moving paper? Is there a clip of you moving paper inside a glass?

 

Garry aka ape

 

Hi Garry,

 

The point I was attempting to make is not to do it instead of doing it. IMO it is a total waste of time. I played with that kind of stuff many years ago and wasted time; didn't do anything whatsoever in terms of qi projection training one reason (there are many) because there IS NO FEEDBACK as in qi projection for healing. And what is accomplished? The paper moved? Wow. Why not instead project to someone hurting and take their pain away instead of at paper? I just think it is a total waste of effort. I do have a video posted of projecting to a person. This is my opinion. Anyone that wishes to amaze their friends at parties by making paper move instead of healing them can have at it if that is what they wish to do.

 

I agree with you about the talents; like you said, if anyone practices a real system any natural talents will manifest regardless if a person wants or doesn't want them to.

[That Guy]

BLASPHEMY!

 

I just had to say it But I can see the defence to john chang being:

He is rich, doesn't have reason to trick people, he can't take a penny from his skills anyway.

He has nothing to prove to you or the world, your loss.

 

And thats where it stays... Thats why I wish Masters with such power made a bigger effort on showing this stuff is real...if it is...

 

 

And on a side note, John Chang has been in a car crash, but his body was protected from any injury, yin chi absorb impact, or yang made his body rock hard.

[forestofclarity]

I also heard of some woman who healed herself of schizophrenia.

 

On a more serious note, Gurdjieff used to say that one has to become familiar with occult tricks if one does not wish to fall for them. I don't know much about plywood and physics, but I know JC feels like a fraud. This comes from years of dealing with criminals and liars.

 

One of the problems with pursuing powers, or bliss states, or whatever, is that it takes away from the "work of the soul". You can see in Jane's story the work she has done on herself that shows in her ability to see what she did, where she went wrong, and hold herself in a critical light in public. This type of work provides insight into the mechanics of the mind, which is far more important in the long run than developing a power or state.

 

 

You know what I think a really impressive demo of nei kung is? A guy by the name of Bruce Frantzis shattered his spine, deformed his skull and cracked his pelvis in a car wreck. He refused a spinal fusion and managed to heal himself with nei kung. That is a useful 'power'.

[forestofclarity]

Rich people lie, cheat, and steal all the time. Wealth is obviously no guarantee of virtue--- one of the reasons that many monastics take a vow of poverty.

 

BLASPHEMY!

 

I just had to say it But I can see the defence to john chang being:

He is rich, doesn't have reason to trick people, he can't take a penny from his skills anyway.

He has nothing to prove to you or the world, your loss.

[Kunlun Enthusiast]

 

One of the problems with pursuing powers, or bliss states, or whatever, is that it takes away from the "work of the soul".

 

 

Well said. Here is what Ramana Maharshi says. He was someone who is credited to have actually had some such powers.

 

I have heard that as a side-effect of a deep level of realization, sometimes these powers manifest. But at that stage, he/she has no doubts, questions on should or should not use the powers etc.

 

But where are those who truly accept all they want are some powers or the ability to do parlor tricks? Healing is also one such parlor trick though more beneficial if one sees with a bare eye! Every one likes to believe their goal is enlightenment, awakening etc. If someone is ready to declare he is after such move-paper tricks or even an ability to heal and that's pretty much their goal, then why not? It's his responsibility to suffer the consequences, if any. The issue really is with hypocrisy when you want powers but don't want to acknowledge you are simply after them and need to explain yourself with hundred reasons - heal the world, help the poor, lamposts on the way to realization blah blah.

Edited April 6, 2010 by Kunlun Enthusiast

[forestofclarity]

Actually, fraud is probably too harsh a word to use here. I would say, JCs demos feel like a trick. I don't mean to say that JC is a con-man for money or a criminal.

 

I remember an old story from my anthropology class about a student of a famous anthropologist (I want to say it was Levi-Strauss) who learned to heal people by sucking arrowheads out of their bodies. Now the student knew the trick--- the healers would hide the arrowhead in their mouth beforehand, then they would "suck" on the body and produce the arrowhead. Nevertheless, it was found that he could in fact heal the tribe members. I think that what JC does is something along these lines.

 

On a more serious note, Gurdjieff used to say that one has to become familiar with occult tricks if one does not wish to fall for them. I don't know much about plywood and physics, but I know JC feels like a fraud. This comes from years of dealing with criminals and liars.

[Ya Mu]

What is useful? Moving paper inside a glass? I just did that lol

...

 

Please post a video; Ape said he would like to see it and I would as well.

But please stand over 3 feet from it. Wouldn't want people to think HEAT was causing it to move.

[Spirit Ape]

Hi Ma Yu,

 

The moving of paper and objects by my teachers was a by product of his meditations and just to demonstrate his force. I could tell you alot more but no need, he can and has projected his energy at people for both good and bad and did many things to the people.

 

You might wanna read the thread here called Flying Phoenix Chi Kung, Master Terry Dunn is also a disciple of the same teacher and witnessed many things he has explained many on that thread if you wish to check it out. His method wasnt to sit there and try and move a piece of paper it was to show that Qi and mind can travel through objects not effecting one and controling the other.

 

cheers

Garry

[Kunlun Enthusiast]

Hi Ma Yu,

 

 

 

Ya Mu ...

[Iyoiyo]

I know supporters don't want to hear this, but if psychic powers were documentable in the least then the whole world would know about it. It would not be a secret. Large portions of the population would spend their lives practicing. Before responding in objection, think about the argument and see if it actually makes any sense.

[Ya Mu]

Hi Ma Yu,

 

The moving of paper and objects by my teachers was a by product of his meditations and just to demonstrate his force. I could tell you alot more but no need, he can and has projected his energy at people for both good and bad and did many things to the people.

 

You might wanna read the thread here called Flying Phoenix Chi Kung, Master Terry Dunn is also a disciple of the same teacher and witnessed many things he has explained many on that thread if you wish to check it out. His method wasnt to sit there and try and move a piece of paper it was to show that Qi and mind can travel through objects not effecting one and controling the other.

 

cheers

Garry

Hi Garry,

 

It is not that I don't believe he could do it. I do.

I know you say for demonstration but I still don't understand the reasoning. I used to do all sorts of demonstrations and then just quit doing so because all the good it did was get a few ah's and oh's then nothing. But if a person projects qi and heals someone else that continues.

Different ways of looking at it, I guess.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I know supporters don't want to hear this, but if psychic powers were documentable in the least then the whole world would know about it. It would not be a secret. Large portions of the population would spend their lives practicing. Before responding in objection, think about the argument and see if it actually makes any sense.

 

The electric car comes to mind.......

 

There are a multitude of reasons for why something can work but not be known about by a large number of people.

Edited April 6, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang