Why I am against 'powers'

[philbowser]

You come across as a total a-hole.

 

With a capital A. It takes guts to share what Jane did. What do you have to offer except make half-assed jokes and poke fun at everyone? Did someone call you "Sifu"?

 

And may be you and Lucky7 should get a room, stay there and make fun of anything and everything? Do you guys know you come across as such jerks? One is a Buddhist who likes to debate and the other has burning palms. And what comes out of it? Here you go

 

I guess neither has any real life experience on anything Jane said here. But you can show some respect, can't you?

Edited April 13, 2010 by philbowser

[Spirit Ape]

haahahaha, riggggght!!!

 

Read what she has written before judging, I responded to her post in my own mental way. Was i too hard on Jane?

 

Live Now, she still caught in the past worryng about that stuff she did wrong or couldnt do properly.

 

Phil,

 

You sound you want to join in with the sexual talk, im sorry man im not into that stuff I'll leave it to you mate AND I wont judge you if you gay ok!

 

Ape

[That Guy]

what the hell happened here?

*slowly walks away*

[C T]

what the hell happened here?

*slowly walks away*

Hormonal imbalance???

[Lucky7Strikes]

With a capital A. It takes guts to share what Jane did. What do you have to offer except make half-assed jokes and poke fun at everyone? Did someone call you "Sifu"?

 

And may be you and Lucky7 should get a room, stay there and make fun of anything and everything? Do you guys know you come across as such jerks? One is a Buddhist who likes to debate and the other has burning palms. And what comes out of it? Here you go

 

I guess neither has any real life experience on anything Jane said here. But you can show some respect, can't you?

Dude,

 

Chilllllllll.

 

Buddhists like to debate. So what? It's good.

 

You don't? Why not?

 

Oh shoot, I'm being a jerk again!

[goldisheavy]

Personally I like SFJane, and as long as she continues to post interesting bits and pieces, I'm willing to put her diatribes about ego (like: your ego is too big, my ego is good, I am more qualified because I have more experience, etc.) into the "spice" box. It's just SFJane's natural spiciness, as I look at it. I think people have a right to be somewhat spicy, especially if they have something other than spice to contribute.

 

So if you make some soup, but all you got in your bowl is a big salt crystal, all spice and no potatoes or water -- no thanks. If it's a salad with nothing but jalapenos and habaneros in it -- no thanks. But if you got some potatoes, carrots and water and you toss some habaneros on top, that might still be worth eating. And some people even require at least a minimal amount of spice before they'll eat anything.

 

The minute discussion turns to discussing the relative sizes of various egos, it all descends into name calling and posturing. This is why I don't like the Asian stance on the ego. By demanding that ego be small Asians really pervert discourse and disrupt dialogue. It's one thing to praise modesty, but it's another thing to try to lower or reduce someone's ego. And keep in mind, totalitarian and dictatorial states absolutely depend on small egos. If everyone thinks "I am worthless, and who am I to voice my opinion" that's wonderful for the tyrants and despots.

[Spirit Ape]

Its all opinions that is so true, dont get caught up on your emotions though when someone doesnt like your post or give a negative answer to your post. Rather than think its an attack maybe look at why the person has said that in his post maybe some of it is true?! Shit, the feedback I also get back is negative more then I get something good or I feel is worth arguing back after to give my opinion to the matter.

 

But what use is it having a forum is no one can have there opinion?

 

Ape

[goldisheavy]

Its all opinions that is so true, dont get caught up on your emotions though when someone doesnt like your post or give a negative answer to your post. Rather than think its an attack maybe look at why the person has said that in his post maybe some of it is true?! Shit, the feedback I also get back is negative more then I get something good or I feel is worth arguing back after to give my opinion to the matter.

 

But what use is it having a forum is no one can have there opinion?

 

Ape

 

I agree. But it's still hard sometimes. I think a lot of artists go through this. Imagine you put all your heart and soul into a painting and then art critic goes, "Too much blue, the composition is wrong, it is trash." Eventually all the artists get used to criticism, especially if they become professionals. Or so I hear.

[Guest paul walter]

 

I take exception to your statement that we all have mental illness. You are entering my area of knowledge with that sentiment. Mental illness as defined by the current experts on the mind consists of detailing a cluster of disabling symptoms and weighing them on a scale of deviance. Diagnosing of mental illness largely relies on patients subjective experiences with their symptoms.

 

Take for example, depression. A certain amount of depression is normal. It's a normal condition that is the part of the human experience. It can happen to us all over the loss of a loved one, the loss of a job or a fortune or even the weather. So does that make everyone who ever experienced depression mentally ill? No.

 

A criteria of mental illness in today's psychology is that the symptoms last for a long time and continue to trouble the sufferer to the point where the sufferer seeks relief from their illness or their symptoms begin to impair their life. If you are so depressed you can barely move week after week after week and there does not seem like there is an obvious reason for it, then you have a mental illness.

 

SF Jane, I respect your strength to survive the life you've had and even more the decision to see through the falsity of relying on "powers" etc. It needs to be pointed out (based on my extensive dealings both with myself and with many others) that mental illness is a given in a culture like 'ours'--once the mind takes over to any extent (fantasising) then that is a good working meaning of "mental illness". Forget the psychiatric professions' definitions--they are merely terms adjusted to fit the working conditions of an already totally unbalanced culture. If my defintition of mental illness was put into practice the whole culture would cease, which of course would be a terrible thing. It's not accepted as reasonable for people to grasp such a view since thought/ego/willpower is the much mis-understood matrix we have been told to rely on and the one that propels the culture, even if it is to its own destruction. As long as the mind affects/interrupts the natural workings of the body and its homeostatic needs we can safely say we have a mental illness. The 'latest' science on healing of course confirms this. All illness can more or less spontaneously reverse and heal when the mind has taken its rightful (healthful) place and let go of the "holding patterns". This thread is very timely for TTB and goes some small way to antidote the incredible "will to power" that seems to have infected the site this year. Thanks SF. Paul

Edited April 14, 2010 by paul walter

[Spirit Ape]

Maybe this is human nature these days?

[Guest paul walter]

Everyone I know, including myself, when they get sick, they want to get better. Why is that? Because they cling to their self-image. Do you know anyone who is ambivalent about sickness and doesn't hurry to get better? Someone who, when bleeding, doesn't take action to stop it? Such people are extremely rare and probably most of them would be considered insane and non-functional and wouldn't be able to converse intelligently and insightfully with you.

 

 

 

 

Gold, while I agree that such people wouldn't "be able to converse intelligently and insightfully" I have to say my life has been, and is, full of people who don't want to recover from illness. I have seen people 'embrace' their own death/failure, let alone milder chronic conditions, rather than act in the direction of health. This I take is related to the idea that when an individual is threatened with a certain reminder of their vulnerability their mind 'closes' (denial) to the fact just as the skin closes over a wound to stay the flow of blood. The ego/I/identitiy and its vulnerability starts leaking and must be 'closed'. Paul.

[Guest paul walter]

Maybe this is human nature these days?

 

 

Well, yes, I'm very sure it is human and 'natural'(to the extent that it seems to be a self-referential 'closed' ecology). As you'd know from your job working in mental 'health', context means everything in escaping the dominant paradigms that destroy or have destroyed us. The larger the view (with ourselves a part of it and not as the 'centre' anymore) the healthier the outlook--the smaller the view the smaller the prison and the greater the pressure/lack of perspective. Paul.

[C T]

Personally I like SFJane, and as long as she continues to post interesting bits and pieces, I'm willing to put her diatribes about ego (like: your ego is too big, my ego is good, I am more qualified because I have more experience, etc.) into the "spice" box. It's just SFJane's natural spiciness, as I look at it. I think people have a right to be somewhat spicy, especially if they have something other than spice to contribute.

 

So if you make some soup, but all you got in your bowl is a big salt crystal, all spice and no potatoes or water -- no thanks. If it's a salad with nothing but jalapenos and habaneros in it -- no thanks. But if you got some potatoes, carrots and water and you toss some habaneros on top, that might still be worth eating. And some people even require at least a minimal amount of spice before they'll eat anything.

 

The minute discussion turns to discussing the relative sizes of various egos, it all descends into name calling and posturing. This is why I don't like the Asian stance on the ego. By demanding that ego be small Asians really pervert discourse and disrupt dialogue. It's one thing to praise modesty, but it's another thing to try to lower or reduce someone's ego. And keep in mind, totalitarian and dictatorial states absolutely depend on small egos. If everyone thinks "I am worthless, and who am I to voice my opinion" that's wonderful for the tyrants and despots.

I like this take! Maybe its becos I am a chef (no...thats CHEF)

 

The last para made a lot of sense esp.

 

Cheers Gold.

[goldisheavy]

once the mind takes over to any extent (fantasising) then that is a good working meaning of "mental illness"

 

So who is in charge before the mind takes over? I mean, in a mentally healthy person who or what is in charge? Following along with your rationale, I presume it can't be mind, so what is it then?

Edited April 14, 2010 by goldisheavy

[goldisheavy]

Gold, while I agree that such people wouldn't "be able to converse intelligently and insightfully" I have to say my life has been, and is, full of people who don't want to recover from illness. I have seen people 'embrace' their own death/failure, let alone milder chronic conditions, rather than act in the direction of health. This I take is related to the idea that when an individual is threatened with a certain reminder of their vulnerability their mind 'closes' (denial) to the fact just as the skin closes over a wound to stay the flow of blood. The ego/I/identitiy and its vulnerability starts leaking and must be 'closed'. Paul.

 

If the illness is allowed to stick around, at some point it may be easier to embrace it as part of your identity than to let it go. If illness becomes a part of who the person is, a part of personal identity/self-image, it's not easy to get rid of it, I agree.

 

So my example was crude, because if you want to get healthy, you want to return to your normal self-image. But if you don't mind being sick, that doesn't mean you're not attached to sickness as a new lasting self-image. So a state I want to describe is not exactly like not minding being sick, it is even more free than that. One doesn't insist on either health or disease. As Zhuangzi said, paraphrased, "If wheels grew out of my ass and my arms turned into an arbalest, I would just wheel around shooting owls." Meaning, as I understand it, total acceptance of any and all transformation without regard to how weird they might be. If I am misquoting something, please correct me.

[Birch]

As Zhuangzi said, paraphrased, "If wheels grew out of my ass and my arms turned into an arbalest, I would just wheel around shooting owls."

 

Did he really paraphrase that? Wow. I think this is the best TTB's thing I've read in a while!

 

Still, it's no fun for people when their immediate context makes them end up thinking a)there's something wrong with their not enjoying what's going on (especially if they've been told from birth they ought to be enjoying it all ) and/or b)there's something wrong with them as a person if they don't enjoy it, or c) they're actually "sick" because they don't enjoy it. Rather than accepting that they're NOT sick and that something else is sick. Of course, we may all be sick, but the point I want to make is that we ALL ARE.

 

I for (n)one am quite happy to continue not enjoying a lot of things. The list of things I enjoy disliking could get quite long. Not least of all, the many attempts (including my own) to reduce my sense of self to zero. But as I mentioned elsewhere in my private forum, the practices work and they won't take you there.

[goldisheavy]

Kate,

 

It's a good thing I said "paraphrased", as I bungled the quote quite a bit. But I think I did get the gist of it conveyed. Still, here's a fuller quote, this time a real quote from Burton Watson's translation of Chuang Tzu (Zhuangzi):

 

Master Ssu, Master Yu, Master Li, and Master Lai were all four talking together. "Who can look upon nonbeing as his head, on life as his back, and on death as his rump?" they said. "Who knows that life and death, existence and annihiliation, are all a single body? I will be his friend!"

 

The four men looked at each other and smiled. There was no disagreement in their hearts and so the four of them became friends.

 

All at once Master Yu fell ill. Master Ssu went to ask how he was.

 

"Amazing!" said Master Yu. "The Creator is making me all crookedy like this! My back sticks up like a hunchback and my vital organs are on top of me. My chin is hidden in my navel, my shoulders are up above my head, and my pigtail points at the sky. It must be some dislocation of the yin and yang!"

 

Yet he seemed calm at heart and unconcerned. Dragging himself haltingly to the well, he looked at his reflection and said, "My, my! So the Creator is making me all crookedy like this!"

 

"Do you resent it?" asked Master Ssu.

 

"Why no, what would I resent? If the process continues, perhaps in time he'll transform my left arm into a rooster. In that case I'll keep watch on the night. Or perhaps in time he'll transform my right arm into a crossbow pellet and I'll shoot down an owl for roasting. Or perhaps in time he'll transform my buttocks into cartwheels. Then with my spirit for a horse, I'll climb up and go for a ride. What need will I ever have for a carriage again?

 

"I received life because the time had come; I will lose it because the order of things passes on. Be content with this time and dwell in this order and then neither sorrow nor joy can touch you. In ancient times this was called the 'freeing of the bound'. There are those who cannot free themselves, because they are bound by things. But nothing can ever win against Heaven--that's the way it's always been. What would I have to resent?"

Edited April 15, 2010 by goldisheavy

[Guest paul walter]

So who is in charge before the mind takes over? I mean, in a mentally healthy person who or what is in charge? Following along with your rationale, I presume it can't be mind, so what is it then?

 

 

I mean the 'language' mind, the trained mind, the lack of faith in true perception mind -that sort of thing.

 

 

What is it? Tao in harmony with 'brain qi', or something of that description .

[Guest paul walter]

So my example was crude, because if you want to get healthy, you want to return to your normal self-image. But if you don't mind being sick, that doesn't mean you're not attached to sickness as a new lasting self-image. So a state I want to describe is not exactly like not minding being sick, it is even more free than that. One doesn't insist on either health or disease. As Zhuangzi said, paraphrased, "If wheels grew out of my ass and my arms turned into an arbalest, I would just wheel around shooting owls." Meaning, as I understand it, total acceptance of any and all transformation without regard to how weird they might be. If I am misquoting something, please correct me.

 

 

Yes, I've consciously put this very passage to the test re my own health these last couple of years-nice paraphrase . I have also discovered that once one completely accepts ones state/life then one heals, so it muddies the waters a little as to whether illness is not just a "state of mind"-literally. I have seen that in forgetting the self the context of the health/ilness paradigm essentially dissolves and the body/context is re-created. I see in myself that this re-creation signals/consolidates a 'higher' level of understanding about what we call life and self. Hmmm how to go on with this... . Paul

[Guest paul walter]

Did he really paraphrase that? Wow. I think this is the best TTB's thing I've read in a while!

 

 

If you haven't read the Inner Chapters of Zhuangzi (Chuang Tsu) you could be in for a treat. The dialogue with Master Tung-kuo where Chuang says the tao is "in the piss and the shit" is another classic--real Laurel and Hardy. Paul.

[goldisheavy]

Yes, I've consciously put this very passage to the test re my own health these last couple of years-nice paraphrase . I have also discovered that once one completely accepts ones state/life then one heals, so it muddies the waters a little as to whether illness is not just a "state of mind"-literally. I have seen that in forgetting the self the context of the health/ilness paradigm essentially dissolves and the body/context is re-created. I see in myself that this re-creation signals/consolidates a 'higher' level of understanding about what we call life and self. Hmmm how to go on with this... . Paul

 

This makes sense to me.

[goldisheavy]

I mean the 'language' mind, the trained mind, the lack of faith in true perception mind -that sort of thing.

 

 

What is it? Tao in harmony with 'brain qi', or something of that description .

 

How can you discern true perception from false?

[nac]

The rules are also set up so that both parties must agree to the set up, what that means is that if it looks like Randi is going to lose he can back out on the grounds of the experiment set-up. Basically, Randi has it set up so that he can never lose, even to a legitimate user.

Randi says he doesn't usually exercise this power, but he has to turn away certain nutcases once in a while for the sake of his reputation. Eg. there was this one time when a lady walked in and claimed she could give men erections telepathically. On the other hand, did you know that Randi doesn't actually have a million dollars in cash? The money exists, but in the form of corporate bonds, a massive headache to untangle and convert into usable currency. Randi doesn't hide this, it's all on his website.

Edited April 15, 2010 by nac

[nac]

How can you discern true perception from false?

Scientific epistemology and phenomenology. Scientific knowledge is necessarily a never-ending work in progress, but the methods and intellectual traditions on which it's based have been more or less finalized for about a century now. I'm especially a fan of Edmund Husserl's work. Did you know that he founded a great meditative tradition? Who knows what might have happened if it hadn't been for the Nazis?

Edited April 15, 2010 by nac

[Trunk]

~~~ TheTaoBums Mod Squad ~~~

 

Moderation action has been taken for Spirit Ape's offending post back in pg 9 of this thread. Just wanted to let people know, it's not ok. Also that the 'Report' button does work.

 

- Trunk

 

~~~ Mod Squad out ~~~