Why I am against 'powers'

[SFJane]

Well its pretty obvious Jane is quite self-absorbed. ME, MYSELF, I, and MINE... clearly demonstrated in the post above yours.

Just count all the I's in that short post.

 

Not being critical... just an observation in passing.

 

Passing observation or not, it is critical. Can't you do better than this? This is an ad hom. You are attacking me and my alleged personality trait and not the substance of my ideas. The post you are referring to is an anecdote from my personal practice, of course it is about me.

 

How easy it is to accuse someone of being self absorbed when they dare to post a thread or reply about themselves? How do you avoid coming across seemingly unabsorbed with yourself by posting about your own experiences and ideas? That is a risk I had to take in making the OP and subsequent replies based on my own lived experiences. Can you post a cogent argument for or against the actual ideas and concerns that I broached?

 

Note to Trunk. I saw your post and I want to make it clear with this reply that I am not trying to fan flames, only wrest higher quality posts from people who I know can do better than they have.

Edited April 17, 2010 by SFJane

[Sloppy Zhang]

 

In dream work is an oft forgotten but necessary step on the spiritual road. I'm haunted by a question Ron Jeremy once asked 'How will your practice help you when your dead?' I may be wrong but I suspect a possible answer lies with mastery of lucidity.

Michael

 

Yeah that really is a great question!

 

I find myself frequently wondering, if reincarnation does exist, if anything exists really, how I will "stay aware" in the meantime if I can't even get myself to have a lucid dream when I want!

[SFJane]

Ah Enouch, I have been meaning to get back to you on several replies.

 

Firstly, thanks for the link to the Swami Rama studies done in the 60s. I read the results of the experiments and I was pleased to see someone confident enough to go into a lab and be tested.

 

With that said, the TK demo was hampered by agreeing to Rama's request to not record it on video. That was a research flaw. Be that as it may, if, for the sake of argument, we agree that Rama did in fact use TK to move a needle ten degrees then I have to say I am very disappointed. He was 45 yo at the time, had great mastery of his circulatory system and yet it took him days of repeating a mantra some 140,000 times to generate enough power to move a small piece of metal an even smaller distance.

 

That was a pretty puny display of TK. If it took that many years and that much work to generate so little of an effect than frankly I am not impressed. So far, the one link in this thread about someone with demonstrable siddhi was a guy tested in the 60s who died in 1996 and not one of his students has stepped up and performed similar or better feats since then. Certainly we have no links to pdfs and videos of TTBers with siddhi that have been documented by science in this thread.

 

What are powers? Blasting someone with heat vision out of your eyes? Or something that transcends known [acceptable] natural laws? In any case, enough evidence has been given that super normal abilities are real, in the persons of Wim Hoff and Prahlad Jani. It is ''impossible'' for a human being to run fifteen miles almost naked at the artic circle. It is ''impossible'' for a person not to eat/ drink anything and not use the bathroom for fourteen days.Where is he getting his energy from?

 

It seems to me like these names you keep bringing up are really important to you. If so, why? Do you have even a tiny fraction of their ability? So what if a guy can run seminaked through the arctic. What does that mean to you? Why not get into Tumo and see if you can beat Wim Hoff's records and get that power for yourself? Isn't cold endurance just an artifact of a practice designed to liberate your consciousness? You know what Wim is doing now? He is training for another cold endurance stunt. Whatever happened to moving on from the powers you acquire and getting back to work leveling up your consciousness?

 

Which do you want? Powers or enlightenment? If you start performing cold endurance stunts does that mean you are more spiritually advanced than us or are just utilizing more of your physical capabilities than you thought possible? Do you think siddhi is an honest indicator of where someone is spiritually? Do you think if you yourself could demo siddhi this would be a kind of meaningful certification of your enlightenment?

 

I noticed in your report not a mention of desiring powers for healing [like Drew proclaims he wants] was mentioned. Super normal healing is a siddhi as well.

 

The OP was getting big enough and I could not include every little thing I thought was relevant. So I left out a lot of other stuff that I was into including lucid dreaming and healing.

 

Healing myself of my problems was one of the things I was doing in my early to mid twenties. The very first thing I learned in Bruce's system was a chi/nei kung set called 'The Marriage of Heaven and Earth'. Bruce taught us how to heal ourselves with that chi kung very explicitly. I learned it to help heal a variety of myofascial, structural and energetic problems I was experiencing at the time.

 

Around the same time I eventually went on to become a certified Reiki III teacher. The thing of it was this. I had a plethora of mental, emotional and physical problems that needed to be healed. I was doing a lot of trying to heal other people with both chi gung and Reiki when I realized the hypocrisy of it. There is a saying, "Healer, first heal thyself." How the heck could I take myself seriously as an energy healer if I was so unwell on so many levels?

 

So I stopped practicing Reiki and chi gung healing on people and instead focused on getting my shit together first. In the process of healing myself I realized how energy intensive it is to try to repair substantial problems in my energy system. It seemed even more pointless to splurge my energy on healing others when my own body needed a lot of attention. It followed that if I could heal myself and balance my mind, body and heart then I would have a surplus of energy to heal others and much more experience doing so.

 

I went underground with my healing interests and instead, tried to heal myself. While healing I not only changed the landscape of my mind but also my body. Which previously was twisted, tense and contorted from all the energy blocks that had embedded themselves from various injuries over time.

 

My ribs were migrating towards my clavicle due to internal tension over the years. I saw my distorted skeleton in my Xrays at a chiropractor's office. Daunting though it was, I used Bruce's Bend the Bow and Shoot the Arrow chi gung to reverse my migrating ribs, reverse the pressure on my nerves and remove the distortion in my fascia that caused my posture to be so inefficient and painful.

 

I never really desired healing powers per se, but I did manage to get some amazing self healing effects mentally and physically by practicing Bruce's system diligently.

Edited April 17, 2010 by SFJane

[3bob]

Jane,

 

"...When I finally did get a 'power' (of sorts) it was like nothing I ever imagined or aspired to. People don't think of the ability to be content and happy or still your thoughts as a 'power'" SFJane

 

Wonderful, and none of us need to prove such a virtue that stands on its own, do we?

 

Also, unless someone specifically asks someone for help with debunking as you call it, what motive or what business is it of ours to get involved? (other than living along the lines of the "golden rule" that also stands on its own)

 

What can be gained can be lost, and what can be lost can also be re-gained - but that which can never be gained or lost because it stands on its own inherently is the true power.

 

Om

Edited April 17, 2010 by 3bob

[SFJane]

Jane,

 

Also, unless someone specifically asks someone for help with debunking as you call it, what motive or what business is it of ours to get involved? (other than living along the lines of the "golden rule" that also stands on its own)

 

Can you give me a concrete working example of what you mean by this 3bob?

[MBZ]

On a side note, and I mean no disrespect, but I find it very interesting how knowledgable you (SFJane) are and yet you don't know the benifits of push ups???!!!

 

BLESSINGS!!!

[buddhasbellybuttonfluff]

Forget about the truth and being in right. No measure of logic, empirical proof, nor conviction may ever turn a heart. Words that don't encapsule empathy and compassion are not worth the time and energy that was used on them.

 

Childlike sense of curiosity, wonder, and joy sure are the best medicine for the skeptic and believer alike. The problem is how do you find your innocence: Forget about your sense of authority and let the children play! Then become a child and join them. After that everything else is superfluous and care free.

 

When the premise of a discussion is in clildlike delight and wonder, only then you may have good scientific/spiritual research. If adults are arguing, then it becomes a heated tug-o-war with political agendas.

 

Blessings!

Edited April 17, 2010 by buddhasbellybuttonfluff

[SFJane]

Forget about the truth and being in right. No measure of logic, empirical proof, nor conviction may ever turn a heart. Words that don't encapsule empathy and compassion are not worth the time and energy that was used on them.

 

Childlike sense of curiosity, wonder, and joy sure are the best medicine for the skeptic and believer alike. The problem is how do you find your innocence: Forget about your sense of authority and let the children play! Then become a child and join them. After that everything else is superfluous and care free.

 

When the premise of a discussion is in clildlike delight and wonder, only then you may have good scientific/spiritual research. If adults are arguing, then it becomes a heated tug-o-war with political agendas.

 

Blessings!

 

 

I don't actually agree with glorifying or romanticizing the virtues of children.

 

Children have no minds, so to speak. That is, depending on their age they possess very little formation of self and very little advanced brain development. Babies and children observe constantly people around them for behavioral or gender cues on how to act through a process called modeling.

 

Adults take advantage of the clean slate that is a child's mind to program their cultural, religious and political beliefs and biases into their children before the child encounters those concepts on their own. Some adults exploit a child's lack of experience to take advantage of them or even to have fun at their child's expense by initiating them into ideas like the tooth fairy, santa claus and the easter bunny. All of which are unreal entities that a child must learn the hard way don't exist to their own disappointment (at least in my case).

 

Children are gullible, easily deceived and their brains contain a mere fraction of the neuron development found in a mature adult's brain. So it's no wonder they are curious and lack preconceived notions and possess innocence until those qualities are taken from them by the exigencies and realities of life. Plus even when children do have momentous realizations or interesting conclusions they are often not taken seriously due to their youth.

 

I'd much rather possess the mind of an informed adult with experiences to draw upon than the vulnerable and easily misdirected, untrained, undisciplined mind of a naive child.

Edited April 17, 2010 by SFJane

[SFJane]

On a side note, and I mean no disrespect, but I find it very interesting how knowledgable you (SFJane) are and yet you don't know the benifits of push ups???!!!

 

BLESSINGS!!!

 

On a side note, I am up to ten classic pushups and ten hindu pushups twice a day since I started that thread. I suppose I should go back, dig up that thread and talk about how I became an internal practice elitist after getting hooked on the Kumar bandwagon and stopped doing pushups in order to make sure my chi was flowing through the 'shoulder's nest'.

Edited April 17, 2010 by SFJane

[3bob]

Can you give me a concrete working example of what you mean by this 3bob?

 

well, unless a certain "fundamentalist" who has doubts about the earth being around 10,000 years old happens to ask me for help in debunking that idea then I will leave them be in their belief - just as I would hope they would leave me be in mine. (thus a form of, or variation on the golden rule)

[SFJane]

well, unless a certain "fundamentalist" who has doubts about the earth being around 10,000 years old happens to ask me for help in debunking that idea then I will leave them be in their belief - just as I would hope they would leave me be in mine. (thus a form of, or variation on the golden rule)

 

Thanks for being more precise 3bob. I mean I could see where you are coming from if someone waltzed into a thread about a flat earth and started debunking the OP but how does that pertain to this thread?

[C T]

Well its pretty obvious Jane is quite self-absorbed. ME, MYSELF, I, and MINE... clearly demonstrated in the post above yours.

Just count all the I's in that short post.

 

Not being critical... just an observation in passing.

Cant believe i got a nudge from a rather stern moderator for posting this observation!

 

I was merely expressing the first thought that came to mind when reading the afore-mentioned post and thought, "Geez look at the number of I's in this post...", and then i read Lucky7's observation, which was found to be quite agreeable - which prompted the need to highlight it. There was not a trace of malice attached, but if Jane wants to be sensitive about it, then its something she may need very much to deal with herself. I am offering no apology for making such a weightless remark. Whats so wrong about being self-absorbed anyway?

 

 

 

Guess i better 'tie' myself to the Haiku Chain from now on...

Shhh.... intelligentsia at work here.

[SFJane]

Cant believe i got a nudge from a rather stern moderator for posting this observation!

 

I was merely expressing the first thought that came to mind when reading the afore-mentioned post and thought, "Geez look at the number of I's in this post...", and then i read Lucky7's observation, which was found to be quite agreeable - which prompted the need to highlight it. There was not a trace of malice attached, but if Jane wants to be sensitive about it, then its something she may need very much to deal with herself. I am offering no apology for making such a weightless remark. Whats so wrong about being self-absorbed anyway?

 

 

 

Guess i better 'tie' myself to the Haiku Chain from now on...

Shhh.... intelligentsia at work here.

 

 

You know, I have on my hard-drive a manuscript about my life and experiences that is over 120k words. In this memoir the words, me, my, mine and I are used exponentially more than anything that I have written here. By your goalpost every memoir author and autobiographer that ever lived is or was terminally self absorbed. I supposed being perceived as self absorbed in trying to become a published author and writing about about my own life is a risk I am going to have to take.

 

Or is it that it's OK to write about your life and experiences in a book and you're fine. But if you write about your life, your thoughts and experiences in an online forum that is self absorption? Please share with me your judgment and interpretation of this conundrum CowTao.

Edited April 17, 2010 by SFJane

[enouch]

Ah Enouch, I have been meaning to get back to you on several replies.

 

Firstly, thanks for the link to the Swami Rama studies done in the 60s. I read the results of the experiments and I was pleased to see someone confident enough to go into a lab and be tested.

 

With that said, the TK demo was hampered by agreeing to Rama's request to not record it on video. That was a research flaw. Be that as it may, if, for the sake of argument, we agree that Rama did in fact use TK to move a needle ten degrees then I have to say I am very disappointed. He was 45 yo at the time, had great mastery of his circulatory system and yet it took him days of repeating a mantra some 140,000 times to generate enough power to move a small piece of metal an even smaller distance.

 

That was a pretty puny display of TK. If it took that many years and that much work to generate so little of an effect than frankly I am not impressed. So far, the one link in this thread about someone with demonstrable siddhi was a guy tested in the 60s who died in 1996 and not one of his students has stepped up and performed similar or better feats since then. Certainly we have no links to pdfs and videos of TTBers with siddhi that have been documented by science in this thread.

 

 

 

It seems to me like these names you keep bringing up are really important to you. If so, why? Do you have even a tiny fraction of their ability? So what if a guy can run seminaked through the arctic. What does that mean to you? Why not get into Tumo and see if you can beat Wim Hoff's records and get that power for yourself? Isn't cold endurance just an artifact of a practice designed to liberate your consciousness? You know what Wim is doing now? He is training for another cold endurance stunt. Whatever happened to moving on from the powers you acquire and getting back to work leveling up your consciousness?

 

Which do you want? Powers or enlightenment? If you start performing cold endurance stunts does that mean you are more spiritually advanced than us or are just utilizing more of your physical capabilities than you thought possible? Do you think siddhi is an honest indicator of where someone is spiritually? Do you think if you yourself could demo siddhi this would be a kind of meaningful certification of your enlightenment?

 

 

 

The OP was getting big enough and I could not include every little thing I thought was relevant. So I left out a lot of other stuff that I was into including lucid dreaming and healing.

 

Healing myself of my problems was one of the things I was doing in my early to mid twenties. The very first thing I learned in Bruce's system was a chi/nei kung set called 'The Marriage of Heaven and Earth'. Bruce taught us how to heal ourselves with that chi kung very explicitly. I learned it to help heal a variety of myofascial, structural and energetic problems I was experiencing at the time.

 

Around the same time I eventually went on to become a certified Reiki III teacher. The thing of it was this. I had a plethora of mental, emotional and physical problems that needed to be healed. I was doing a lot of trying to heal other people with both chi gung and Reiki when I realized the hypocrisy of it. There is a saying, "Healer, first heal thyself." How the heck could I take myself seriously as an energy healer if I was so unwell on so many levels?

 

So I stopped practicing Reiki and chi gung healing on people and instead focused on getting my shit together first. In the process of healing myself I realized how energy intensive it is to try to repair substantial problems in my energy system. It seemed even more pointless to splurge my energy on healing others when my own body needed a lot of attention. It followed that if I could heal myself and balance my mind, body and heart then I would have a surplus of energy to heal others and much more experience doing so.

 

I went underground with my healing interests and instead, tried to heal myself. While healing I not only changed the landscape of my mind but also my body. Which previously was twisted, tense and contorted from all the energy blocks that had embedded themselves from various injuries over time.

 

My ribs were migrating towards my clavicle due to internal tension over the years. I saw my distorted skeleton in my Xrays at a chiropractor's office. Daunting though it was, I used Bruce's Bend the Bow and Shoot the Arrow chi gung to reverse my migrating ribs, reverse the pressure on my nerves and remove the distortion in my fascia that caused my posture to be so inefficient and painful.

 

I never really desired healing powers per se, but I did manage to get some amazing self healing effects mentally and physically by practicing Bruce's system diligently.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It seems to me like these names you keep bringing up are really important to you. If so, why? Do you have even a tiny fraction of their ability? So what if a guy can run seminaked through the arctic. What does that mean to you? Why not get into Tumo and see if you can beat Wim Hoff's records and get that power for yourself? Isn't cold endurance just an artifact of a practice designed to liberate your consciousness? You know what Wim is doing now? He is training for another cold endurance stunt. Whatever happened to moving on from the powers you acquire and getting back to work leveling up your consciousness?

 

Which do you want? Powers or enlightenment? If you start performing cold endurance stunts does that mean you are more spiritually advanced than us or are just utilizing more of your physical capabilities than you thought possible? Do you think siddhi is an honest indicator of where someone is spiritually? Do you think if you yourself could demo siddhi this would be a kind of meaningful certification of your enlightenment?

 

 

 

 

 

 

You are kinda making this personal by violating the laws of critical thinking yourself. Engaging in attacks on a [ad hominem?]person and engaging in ploys of distraction. I neither believe or disbelieve but merely accept what is. Those names stand as testaments of the human spirit and what can be achieved through diligent practice. When a metaphysical claim is made skeptics will then say well ''it isn't in a lab setting under controlled conditions'' or ''the experimental designs were flawed'' or the scientists were duped'' or Their credentials aren't legit''eccetera.

 

What you call a stunt violates every medical book on the planet about what is possible and stands in direct opposition to your world view on super powers. The fact that he demos it for all the world to see is to be commended! For if he did it in a corner you would most likely criticize him as a fake.''If he has powers but refuses to demo them then he's a fake'' If he demos them then you find a reason to belittle the ability or his way of using it. This tactic was also used against Jesus in the gospels and has even made its way into popular fiction. A recent episode of Smallville had Clark Kent revealing his powers and identity to the world. At first there was amazement then judgment[really envy]''How come you saved her son and not mine'' This is probably one reason individuals like John Chang won't go public...not much to gain and a lot to lose.

 

 

Prahlad Jani has allowed himself to be studied by over four hundred doctors[from several different continents]and has been written up on in several medical journals[where's Randy?] Case closed, no arguments, I only accept what is...by retaining a flexible mind that responds to the truth of reality as it unfolds.I'll refrain from saying[typing]maybe you should try it[or did I just do it indirectly?]You wanted evidence of paranormal claims and I provided them to you...my mistake. Perhaps I speak of music to one born deaf? Anyway, I still find you super sexy and intelligent.We can walk the circle together anytime! Yeah baby!!!

Edited April 17, 2010 by enouch

[C T]

You know, I have on my hard-drive a manuscript about my life and experiences that is over 120k words. In this memoir the words, me, my, mine and I are used exponentially more than anything that I have written here. By your goalpost every memoir author and autobiographer that ever lived is or was terminally self absorbed. I supposed being perceived as self absorbed in trying to become a published author and writing about about my own life is a risk I am going to have to take.

 

Or is it that it's OK to write about your life and experiences in a book and you're fine. But if you write about your life, your thoughts and experiences in an online forum that is self absorption? Please share with me your judgment and interpretation of this conundrum CowTao.

Not a conundrum at all, Jane SF. Just want to reiterate what was asked, "Whats so wrong with being self-absorbed anyway?"

Nothing more to add, except to say that you are wished the best of luck in getting your book(s) published.

(Counting and making sure no I's were used here )

[SFJane]

You used straw man again Enouch. You made up my position and set fire to your construction. Is it too much to ask to attack the idea and not the person? Let me do my own thinking and present where I stand on an issue. Things are only a big deal if you make them that way. I told you I was grateful for the link to Swami Rama and that I thought it was neat.

 

A skeptic has to ask questions enouch, and investigating experimental protocols and conclusions must be part of that. Notice how no one since Swami Rama has replicated or outperformed his parlor tricks amazing feats of mental power under similar or better lab controls. I have to look at how much energy was invested and how much time and training went into Rama's demo and at the end of the day it's not impressive.

 

Obviously, if Wim can violate medical books, those books are wrong or needed to be amended. At the end of the day, so what? I stand by what I said, Wim is a one trick pony who so far has nothing else but cold endurance to commend him. It's nifty but it just does not impress me. I've mentioned in my OP the things I tried to do with my mind. Lift cars and throw them at people. Teleport anywhere I wished, at will. Total mental domination of another person. If someone demonstrated things like that, I would be impressed. If someone started repeating to me aloud word for word what I was thinking at the moment, that would be a power and I'd be impressed.

 

 

yourself.....engaging in ploys of distraction.

 

Really. You want to go down that road and let's together, root out and expose every single instance of ploys of distraction that have been used by just about everyone who has disagreed with me in this thread at this point? Want to see where the score stands on that?

 

I neither believe or disbelieve but merely accept what is. Those names stand as testaments of the human spirit and what can be achieved through diligent practice. When a metaphysical claim is made skeptics will then say well ''it isn't in a lab setting under controlled conditions'' or ''the experimental designs were flawed'' or the scientists were duped'' or Their credentials aren't legit''eccetera.

 

Criticism and skepticism is the name of the game enouch. For example, Big Pharma likes to brag about how their latest drug has been proven to ameliorate symptoms X,Y and Z. But what happens when we examine those claims? Big Pharma has been busted time and again concealing studies that disprove the claimed efficacy of their latest drug while promoting studies which show a barely meaningful or statistical increase in efficacy of their drug over placebo controls.

 

What that means in a nutshell is that they reject studies which disprove their claims and accept and endorse only studies which seems to support the results they want to market, even if only barely. Big Pharma is a classic example of an entity that makes use of communal reinforcement, selective thinking, confirmation bias. They have a financially motivated inability to accept contradictory scientific evidence.

 

Only by digging deep, subpoenaing sealed records and making them available to public scrutiny are consumers able to see how corrupted and dishonest Big Pharma studies really are. It would seem by your reasoning that we should not ask hard questions and simply take Big Pharma's research conclusions at face value because doing otherwise is a tactic of distraction or an attack or close minded or whatever.

 

Perhaps I speak of music to one born deaf?

 

What is the point of comments like that that barely conceal a level of snideness? This is Christian-style passive aggressive patronizing. I can easily turn that around and do the same thing to you. Maybe you are just not advanced enough to understand where I am coming from. See? That's patronizing and assuming and that's what you and others who have disagreed with me have done. You (group you) patronized me while not furthering your claims. In your case, enouch, your only talking points are not anecdotal but taken from others who have actually done and proven certain things. Where are your anecdotes and personal observations from actual practice?

 

You didn't answer my other questions like why is Wim Hoff even now, training for another stunt when he has already proved himself. Why isn't he working on the next stage of Tumo instead of trying to break more records and impress more people? Is that not the definition of being hung up on powers?

Edited April 17, 2010 by SFJane

[Lucky7Strikes]

People build their egos as walls (which is different than having or not having one), but eventually they all crumble down. The ugly thing is when they cling to them as their last resort. Something like : do you know what I've been through??? kind of talk.

 

All things change. All things die. Nothing is invulnerable. Unless one is in tune with this reality, you will suffer.

 

LET IT RAIN!! NOT BECAUSE I HAVE A ROOF, BUT BECAUSE THE WATERS THAT DRENCH ME WILL BE BLISS IN IN ITSELF!!

 

kind of thing is much better.

 

Well I do actually agree with you that my posts are useless here and won't do anyone much good. So go on. I wish you luck.

Edited April 17, 2010 by Lucky7Strikes

[Lucky7Strikes]

Edited April 17, 2010 by Lucky7Strikes

[SFJane]

People build their egos as walls (which is different than having or not having one), but eventually they all crumble down. The ugly thing is when they cling to them as their last resort. Something like : do you know what I've been through??? kind of talk.

 

All things change. All things die. Nothing is invulnerable. Unless one is in tune with this reality, you will suffer.

 

LET IT RAIN!! NOT BECAUSE I HAVE A ROOF, BUT BECAUSE THE WATERS THAT DRENCH ME WILL BE BLISS IN IN ITSELF!!

 

kind of thing is much better.

 

Well I do actually agree with you that my posts are useless here and won't do anyone much good. So go on. I wish you luck.

 

 

You really didn't add anything meaningful with this post either Lucky. What is the point of stating cliches like 'all things change'. Snore. I am a ba gua practitioner I work with change directly. This is just pedantic dude.

 

People build their egos as walls (which is different than having or not having one), but eventually they all crumble down. The ugly thing is when they cling to them as their last resort. Something like : do you know what I've been through??? kind of talk.

 

That whole ego this and ego that thing is like an artificial device that some people on this forum start bandying about when they want to take down someone else's position. It's a kind of ad hom actually and a red herring. I don't think you have enough personal meditation practice to have any actual real insight into what ego is or isn't. By your rationale, talking about one's personal experiences and how they led to certain thoughts or convictions is evidence of ego walls crumbling.

 

Give me a break and stop insulting my intelligence. Please. Enough. This is more patronizing garbage based on your own bias and total speculation. You be sure to let me know when my egos walls come crumbling down so I can apologize and act contrite.

Edited April 17, 2010 by SFJane

[enouch]

You used straw man again Enouch. You made up my position and set fire to your construction. Is it too much to ask to attack the idea and not the person? Let me do my own thinking and present where I stand on an issue. Things are only a big deal if you make them that way. I told you I was grateful for the link to Swami Rama and that I thought it was neat.

 

A skeptic has to ask questions enouch, and investigating experimental protocols and conclusions must be part of that. Notice how no one since Swami Rama has replicated or outperformed his parlor tricks amazing feats of mental power under similar or better lab controls. I have to look at how much energy was invested and how much time and training went into Rama's demo and at the end of the day it's not impressive.

 

Obviously, if Wim can violate medical books, those books are wrong or needed to be amended. At the end of the day, so what? I stand by what I said, Wim is a one trick pony who so far has nothing else but cold endurance to commend him. It's nifty but it just does not impress me. I've mentioned in my OP the things I tried to do with my mind. Lift cars and throw them at people. Teleport anywhere I wished, at will. Total mental domination of another person. If someone demonstrated things like that, I would be impressed. If someone started repeating to me aloud word for word what I was thinking at the moment, that would be a power and I'd be impressed.

 

 

 

Really. You want to go down that road and let's together, root out and expose every single instance of ploys of distraction that have been used by just about everyone who has disagreed with me in this thread at this point? Want to see where the score stands on that?

 

 

 

Criticism and skepticism is the name of the game enouch. Think about it for a moment. Big Pharma likes to brag about how their latest drug has been proven to ameliorate symptoms X,Y and Z. But what happens when we examine those claims? Big Pharma has been busted time and again concealing studies that disprove the claimed efficacy of their latest drug while promoting studies which show a barely meaningful or statistical increase in efficacy of their drug over placebo controls.

 

What that means in a nutshell is that they reject studies which disprove their claims and accept and endorse only studies which seems to support the results they want to market, even if only barely. Big Pharma is a classic example of an entity that makes use of communal reinforcement, selective thinking, confirmation bias. They have a financially motivated inability to accept contradictory scientific evidence just like some religious people and occult practitioner or palm readers or astrologers do.

 

Only by digging deep, subpoenaing sealed records and making them available to public scrutiny are consumers able to see how corrupted and dishonest Big Pharma studies really are. It would seem by your reasoning that we should not ask hard questions and simply take Big Pharma's research conclusions at face value because doing otherwise is a tactic of distraction or an attack or close minded or whatever.

 

 

 

What is the point of comments like that that barely conceal a level of snideness? This is Christian-style passive aggressive patronizing. I can easily turn that around and do the same thing to you. Maybe you are just not advanced enough to understand where I am coming from. See? That's patronizing and assuming and that's what you and others who have disagreed with me have done. You (group you) patronized me while not furthering your claims. In your case, enouch, your only talking points are not anecdotal but taken from others who have actually done and proven certain things. Where are your anecdotes and personal observations from actual practice?

 

You didn't answer my other questions like why is Wim Hoff even now, training for another stunt when he has already proved himself. Why isn't he working on the next stage of Tumo instead of trying to break more records and impress more people? Is that not the definition of being hung up on powers?

 

 

 

I don't know why Wim is continuing with his marvelous works...perhaps to spread the word about what is possible. Should he stop and allow skeptics to say it was never done? ''Never video taped?'' To answer that question I would have to engage in mind reading or judge him by my subjective standards. Should an artist stop painting? Creating? Anyway, you are the one who poo pooed subjective reports and wanted clear cut evidence for all the world to see. I could talk all day about my subjective experiences but wouldn't get anywhere because you deleted that as evidence in your opening salvo.

 

I was never interested in attacking you [maybe standing up to you or hooking up with you]just providing contrary evidence for those with eyes to see and ears to hear.We each have to find our own [acceptance]truth in our own time. Actually you attacked me first[i would never attack such a beautiful,beautiful,woman] and that's okay since I came with such objective ''talking points''

 

Notice how no one since Swami Rama has replicated or outperformed his parlor tricks amazing feats of mental power under similar or better lab controls. I have to look at how much energy was invested and how much time and training went into Rama's demo and at the end of the day it's not impressive.

 

I'm sorry if you don't find control over supposedly involuntary functions that impressive or moving a needle ten degrees extraordinary I'm sure a physicist who witnessed such a feat would be extremely impressed! knowing what he knows about gravity and definite forces. At any rate, below are several individuals who rival Rama and Hoff in what can't exist but does! I'm still your b.f.f.!

 

 

 

http://www.amazingabilities.com/amaze5b.html

 

 

 

 

n Unusual Demonstration

The yogic claim of voluntary control over the heart beat:

A letter to the American Heart Journal - 1973

 

LK Kothari MSc MAMS, Arum Bordia MD, VP Gupta MD

Rabindinath Tagore Medical Colledge & Hospital; Udapur India

 

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To the editor:

Yogis in India have long been reputed to develop a remarkable control over bodily functions. Theoretically, it is believed that all visceral functions can be brought under voluntary control by prolonged yogic training, but perhaps their most fascinating claim has been the ability to stop the heart at will. However, in most instances where this has been investigated so far, it has turned out to be an exaggerated Valsalva manoeuvre in some form, which makes the pulse and heart sounds imperceptible while the heart continues to beat at a slow rate.

 

Recently we had the rare opportunity of investigation of an altogether different and very interesting demonstration of this supposed yogic control over the heart. Yogi Satyamurti, a sparsely built man of about 60 years of age, remained confined in a small underground pit for 8 days in what according to him was a state of "Samadhi", or deep meditation, with all bodily activity cut down to the barest minimum. The pit was a 1.5 metre cube, dug out in an open lawn surrounded by the Medical Institute buildings, and was completely sealed from the top by bricks and cement mortar. The Yogi squatted on the floor of the pit with nothing on excepted a light cotton garment. About 5 litres of water was placed in the corner, presumably for drinking but according to the Yogi only for keeping the air humid. An ECG (Lead II) was continuously monitored during these 8 days and various other laboratory investigations were carried out before and after. The ECG leads were kept short enough not to allow any free movement inside the pit.

 

The 12-lead ECG recorded before closing the pit was within normal limits (Fig. 1, strip A), but a significant sinus tachycardia developed soon after. It increased progressively, reaching a heart rate of 250 per minute on the second day (Fig.1,strip . At 5:15 pm on the second day, when the yogi had been inside for about 29 hours, to our great surprise a straight line replaced the ECG tracing (Fig.1, strip C). There was no electrical disturbance of any sort even at higher amplification and with different leads. There had been no slowing of the heart or signs of ischaemia preceding this.

 

 

 

The straight line on the ECG persisted till the eighth morning. Then, to our astonishment, electrical activity returned about half an hour before the pit was scheduled to be opened. After some initial disturbance, a normal configuration appeared. Although some sinus tachycardia was still there, there was no other significant abnormality (Fig.1, strip D). The Yogi had informed us beforehand that he would begin to come out of his deep trance or suspended animation after nearly 7 days, much in the same way that a normal person wakes up after a few hours sleep.

 

When the pit was opened on the eighth day, the Yogi was found sitting in the same posture. One of us immediately went to examine him. He was in a stuporous condition and was very cold (oral temperaturewas 34.8°C). On being taken out of the pit he developed severe shivering and this persisted for nearly 2 hours. A 12-lead ECG repeated in the laboratory subsequently was again within normal limits (Fig.1, strip E).

 

The Yogi and his admirers felt more satisfied at his scientifically documented proof of a remarkable Yogic feat, while we were left rather perplexed and confused. We were expecting some bradycardia and possible sign of myocardia ischaemia, but contrary to this there was severe tachycardia followed by a complete disappearance of all complexes. Any instrumental failure was ruled out by thoroughly checking the machine and also by the spontaneous reappearance of the ECG on the last day. A disconnection of the leads by the Yogi, quite a likely explanation, ought to have given rise to a considerable electrical disturbance, but there was hardly any. Later on, we tried all sorts of manipulations with leads to stimulate what the Yogi could have done inside the pit (notwithstanding the total darkness and his ignorance of ECG technique), but in every case there was marked disturbance. Therefore, although it is obviously difficult to believe that the Yogi could have completely stopped his heart or decreased its electrical activity below a recordable level, we still had no satisfactory explanation for the ECG tracings before us.

 

Apart from this, the Yogi had of course endured total starvation, sensory deprivation, as well as the discomfort of a very humid, closed atmosphere for 8 days. We did not pay much attention to anoxia, thinking that sufficient ventilation could occur through the bare earth on the side of the pit. The loss of weight (4.5 kilograms) and other biochemical changes were essentially the same as can be expected in starvation under similar conditions. They certainly discount any remarkable depression of the metabolic rate.

 

The more optimistic amongst us considered this feat to be a marvellous extension of the "hypometabolic wakeful state of yogic meditation" as described by Wallace and co-workers, and the conditioned learning of autonomic responses in rats reported by DiCara. The sceptics, however, were inclined to take the whole thing as some cleverly disguised trick. But, for the present, we only want to put this interesting experiment on record just as an intriguing and inclusive attempt of a Yogi to demonstrate a voluntary control over his heart beat.

 

 

 

Prahlad Jani -

Ten Day Study

Medical Case Summary

Dr. Sudhir V. Shah

Case Summary: Prahladbhai Jani

 

Case Summary A 76 years old male, Prahladbhai Jani (Chunriwala Mataji), gives a detailed description about his life. He left home at the age of 7 years and wandered in the jungles of Mt. Abu, Girnar, Narmada, etc. At the age of 11 years he had some supernatural experience and this changed his life. According to him he has no desire to eat, drink liquids or pass urine or stool since then. He had been physically fit. Almost daily he goes in a state of extreme bliss (Samadhi) where he experiences enormous light and strength. He attributes his strength to an elixir coming out through his palate.

 

He has studied up to 3 standards and knows to read and write with limited abilities. According to him he did not speak for about 45 years (Maunbrat). In 1942 he was taken at Jaslok Hospital and was under care of doctors and police for 45 days. One and half years back he was investigated by Dr. Sudhir V. Shah for initial analysis of his state of health.

 

He has no past history of any major illnesses, hospitalization [save 1942 for observations], major or minor surgeries or drug intake.

 

Mr. Jani accepted to undergo all non invasive procedures and blood investigations but refused for any invasive procedure from the beginning. He never wanted anything to be introduced through anyway to his body.

 

It was decided to study him by a panel of doctors, which included:

 

Dr. Sudhir V. Shah (Consultant Neurophysician, Sterling Hospital/Associate Professor of Neurology at K. M. School of PGMR, Ahmedabad)

Dr. Urman Dhruv (Physician & Secretary of Association of Physicians of Ahmedabad (APA))

Dr. V. N. Shah (Diabetologist, Director-Sterling Hospital)

Dr. Bharat Gadhavi (General Surgeon/Medical Superintendent-Sterling Hospital)

Dr. Kandarp Parikh (Urologist)

Dr. Dinesh Patel/Dr. Hemant Patel (Radiologists)

Dr. Sanjay Mehta (Neuro Radiologist & Sonologist)

Dr. Gargey Sutaria (Radiologist)

Dr. Sanjiv Haribhakti (G. I. Surgeon)

Dr. Navneet Shah (Physician, Endocrinologist)

Dr. Prakash Darji/Dr. Sonal Dalal/ Dr. Pankaj Shah (Nephrologists)

Dr. Bansi Saboo (General Physician)

Dr. Shrenik Shah (Cardiologist)

Dr. Dhanesh Patel (General Surgeon)

Dr. O. M. Modi (Senior Physician)

Dr. Hemang Desai (Psychiatrist)

Dr. Jayesh Sheth (Genetician & Endocrinologist)

Dr. Dhaval Modi (Ophthalmologist)

Dr. Jayeeta Chaudhary (Dietician)

Dr. Mukesh Patel (Pulmonologist)

Dr. Ruchir Shah (ENT Surgeon)

 

Several other doctors also examined him from time to time.

 

He was kept in Sterling Hospital (Gurukul Road, Ahmedabad) from 13/11/03 (10:00 AM) to 22/11/03 (10:00 AM) for observation. Directors of Sterling Hospital specially Dr. V. N. Shah and the management committee of Sterling Hospital kindly consented to look after the ethical aspects and the funds for the project including various tests.

 

The strict monitoring to ascertain the genuinity of his claim (Not eating anything, not drinking anything, not passing urine and not passing stool) was done by the unbiased august body, i.e. Association of Physicians of Ahmedabad, under precise protocol set by the Secretary of the Association, Dr. Urman Dhruv, along with executive committee of the association.

 

The research panel of doctors was headed by Dr. Sudhir V. Shah (Consultant Neurophysician, Sterling Hospital/Associate professor of neurology at K. M. School of PGMR, Ahmedabad).

 

During the project, Dr. Sudhir Shah almost daily was in touch with Professor Dr. Selvamurthy who is the over all controller of Defence laboratories including DIPAS (Defence Institute of Physiology and Allied Sciences), New Delhi. He was kind enough to guide the protocol of monitoring as well as further tests for the project.

 

During the study period Mr. Jani was completely monitored by doctors, staff members and security people all throughout the day.

 

He was asked to make an affidavit to undergo the study with clear understanding that if his health or medical parameters deteriorate then panel of doctors will withdraw from the study.

 

He was kept in ICU for 24 hours, i.e. 13/11/03 (10:00 AM to 14/11/03 (10:00 AM) and then was kept in a room with glass door. The toilet door was sealed. CCTV camera was set in the room for the rest of the period of study, i.e. from 14/11/03 to 22/11/03 (10:00 AM). Medical officers on duty were assigned the job to monitor him. Staff persons were deputed on round-the-clock duty for 9 days and nights continuously to stay with Mr. Jani in the same room to closely watch him and make sure that he does not eat, drink, pass urine or stool. The video tapes were reviewed for all 24 hours of all these days by committee. Mr. Jani was not allowed to go out of the room except for sonography of bladder and MRI testings, but even during that period, he was all the way accompanied by doctors.

 

Clinical opinions of system examination of all experts were obtained including cardiac, renal, neurological, urological, gastrointestinal, general medical, pulmonological, ophthalmic, ENT, psychiatry and others. A series of investigations were done as per protocol defined earlier as well as additional tests were carried out as per suggestions of the team.

 

Clinically all his systems were generally normal. All his special senses were also ok except moderate hearing loss. However, his pulse remained at 42-46/min, BP about 114/80 mmHg and respiration around 12-14/min. His cognition and behavior was all right. His weight was taken daily. His clinical examination including vital data and general examination and systemic examination was done daily. Urinary volume in the bladder was checked by ultrasound twice daily at 10:00 AM & 6:00 PM. This showed that there was urine accumulation, which ultimately decreased on its own without passing.

 

Blood samples were checked regularly with frequent monitoring of CBC, RFT, electrolytes, sugar and acetone. There was mild alteration in renal parameters and there was slight fall in weight, which subsequently stabilized. Otherwise all reports were in normal range. Genetic study report is awaited. The above study was done for the period of 10 days.

 

 

Pertinent Clinical Investigations:

 

Hematology:

 

Blood Group: “A” +ve

 

Date: 12/11/03

 

Hb: 10.8 G%

T.RBC: 4.17

TC: 4880 /c.mm.

DC: 40/47/10/03/00

PC: 3,52,000 /c.mm.

ESR: After 1 hr: 10 mm

 

Blood Indices:

HCT: 35.8

MCV: 85.9

MCH: 25.9

MCHC: 30.2

 

Date: 14/11/03

 

Hb: 11.3 G%

T.RBC: 4.37

TC: 5780 /c.mm.

DC: 47/41/09/03/00

PC: 4,25,000 /c.mm.

 

Blood Indices:

HCT: 37.9

MCV: 86.7

MCH: 25.9

MCHC: 29.8

 

Date: 16/11/03

 

Hb: 11.5 G%

T.RBC: 4.49

TC: 5640 /c.mm.

DC: 52/36/09/03/00

PC: 4,53,000 /c.mm.

 

Blood Indices:

HCT: 38.5

MCV: 85.7

MCH: 25.6

MCHC: 29.9

 

Date: 18/11/03

 

Hb: 12.3 G%

T.RBC: 4.87

TC: 8180 /c.mm.

DC: 66/27/04/03/00

PC: 5,03,000 /c.mm.

 

Blood Indices:

HCT: 42.0

MCV: 86.2

MCH: 25.3

MCHC: 29.3

 

Date: 20/11/03

 

Hb: 12.9 G%

T.RBC:5.17 m/c.mm.

TC: 7690 /c.mm.

DC: 62/25/04/05/01

PC: 4,86,000 /c.mm.

MPV: 9.0 fl

ESR: After 1 hr: 25 mm; After 2 hr: 52 mm

 

Blood Indices:

HCT: 42.2

MCV: 81.6

MCH: 25.0

MCHC:30.6

 

Biochemistry:

 

Date: 12/11/03

 

Prolactin: 3.80

S. Cortisol: 12.2 microgm/dL

S. Total Proteins:

Total Proteins: 7.27

Albumin: 4.05

Globulin: 3.22

A/G Ratio: 1.26

 

Gamma GT: 31.0 U/L

 

Thyroid Function Test:

 

T-3: 0.86 ng/ml

T-4: 5.90

TSH: 3.15 microIU/ml

 

Lipid Profile:

 

S. Cholesterol: 216.0 mg/dl

S. Triglycerides: 127.6 mg/dl

HDL: 57.2 mg/dl

Direct LDL: 118.9 mg/dl

Cal. LDL: 133.28 mg/dl

Very low density lipoprotein: 26 mg/dl

LDL/HDL: 2.079

Cholesterol/HDL: 3.776

 

S. Electrolytes:

 

S. Na+: 139.8 mmol/L

S. K+: 4.61 mmol/L

S. Cl-: 103.2 mmol/L

S. Acid Phosphatase:

Total Acid Phosphatase: 4.58 IU/L

Non Prostatic ACP: 2.58 IU/L

Prostatic Phosphatase: 135.19 IU/L

 

S. Bilirubin:

 

Total Bilirubin: 0.48 mg/dl

Conj: 0.10 mg/dl

Unconj: 0.38 mg/dl

Delta: 0 mg/dl

SGPT: 21.0 U/L

SGOT: 22.0 U/L

S. Alk. Phosphatase: 95.0 U/L

 

FBS: 85.7 mg/dl

Blood Urea: 33.0 mg/dl

S. Creatinine: 1.36 mg/dl

S. Uric acid: 5.26 mg/dl

S.Acetone : 10 mg/dl

Human Growth Hormone: 0.14 ng/ml

 

Date: 14/11/03

 

Blood Urea: 46.9 mg/dl

S. Creatinine: 1.53 mg/dl

S. Na+: 145.1 mmol/L

S. K+: 4.60 mmol/L

S. Cl-: 107.0 mmol/L

S.Acetone : 10 mg/dl

 

Date: 15/11/03

 

S. Na+: 143.7 mmol/L

S. Acetone: 30.0 mg/dl (Present)

 

Date: 16/11/03

 

Blood Urea: 59.6 mg/dl

S. Creatinine: 1.52 mg/dl

S. Na+: 148.3 mmol/L

S. K+: 4.97 mmol/L

S. Cl-: 106.8 mmol/L

 

RBS: 84.9 mg/dl

S. Acetone: 30.0 mg/dl (Present)

 

Date: 18/11/03

 

S. Uric acid: 11.44 mg/dl

SGPT: 10.0 U/L

S. Acetone: 30.0 mg/dl (Present)

Blood Urea: 63.7 mg/dl

S. Creatinine: 1.75 mg/dl

S. Na+: 154.3 mmol/L

S. K+: 4.37 mmol/L

S. Cl-: 107.5 mmol/L

 

ABG: (Venous Blood)

 

PH: 7.31

PCO2: 48

PO2: 23

TCO2: 25

HCO3: 23

BE: -3.0

O2 sat: 35%

Venous RBS: 162.0 mg/dl

 

Date: 20/11/03

 

T-3: 0.97 ng/ml

T-4: 9.0 ug/dl

TSH: 2.1 ulu/dl

Plasma Cortisol:

AM: 11.0 ug/dl

FBS: 76 mg%

Blood Urea: 77 mg%

S. Creatinine: 1.7 mg%

S. Na+: 155.9 M.Eq/L

S. K+: 4.67 M.Eq/L

S. Cl-: 115.9 M.Eq/L

SGPT: 24 Units/ml

S.Acetone : 30 mg\dl

 

Date: 21/11/03

 

Blood Urea: 87.5 mg/dl

S. Creatinine: 1.46 mg/dl

S. Na+: 143.5 mmol/L

S. K+: 4.16 mmol/L

S. Cl-: 101.5 mmol/L

S. Acetone: 30.0 mg/dl (Present)

 

Date: 25/11/03

 

S. K+: 3.40 mmol/L

SGPT: 23.0

S. Creatinine: 1.40 mg/dl

S. Na+: 137.5 mmol/L

Blood Urea: 48.2 mg/dl

RBS: 99.8 mg/dl

 

Audiological Evaluation: (17/11/03)

 

Bilateral severe to profound degree of sensori-neural hearing loss.

 

ECG and cardiac evaluation were normal.

 

Radiological Investigations:

 

X-Ray Chest PA (12/11/03): No significant abnormality detected.

 

USG Abdomen (12/11/03): No significant abnormality detected.

 

Doppler examination of carotid, vertebral, abdominal aorta and peripheral arterial system of lower limbs were quite normal.

 

MR Angiography of Brain, Neck & abdomen was unremarkable.

 

MR Oesophagus: Normal study

 

MR cholanigopancreatography: Normal study

 

MR Abdomen – pelvis: Presence of bowel gas and solid faecal material.

Gall bladder collapsed.

Urinary bladder partially filled with urine around 70ml

 

MR Myelography: Normal study

 

Cartography (26/11/03):

 

Normal study except LVEF is between 22-35%

 

 

After day 10, the committee is satisfied with following matter:

 

1. The protocol was strictly adhered to.

2. Mr. Jani has not passed or dribbled urine during these 10 days.

3. He has not taken anything by mouth or by any other routes not even water for 10 days.

4. All his parameters remained within the range determined by the committee.

5. He has shown evidence of formation of urine, which seems to be reabsorbed from his bladder wall. However at present the committee does not have any scientific explanation for the same but the help of senior scientists and medical personnel of the country is being taken for the same.

 

We are surprised as to how he has survived despite above particularly without passing urine for 10 days and remaining generally physically fit.

 

However it should be made very clear that we have confirmed the claim over 10 days only and we as scientists and responsible doctors cannot say anything regarding validity of the claim of his sustaining without food, drinks, urination and excretion of stools over several years.

 

Our attempt is to understand this wonderful phenomenon having confirmed from our side over these 10 days and we are not sure whether this is reproducible in other human beings by the way of YOGA as he practices, or by other methods like Genetic Engineering. If so, also we are not sure whether and how it can contribute to human welfare. At the moment, we are trying to analyse the results and trying to learn for the betterment of science. Probably some invasive investigations may help understand this process, but from the beginning Mr. Jani has refused any invasive procedure or any sort of injections be it a dye only.

 

Dr. Urman Dhruv

(Physician & Secretary of APA)

 

Dr. S. V. Shah

(Consultant Neurology & Head of Research Committee)

 

Dr. V. N. Shah

(Diabetologist & Director-Sterling Hospital)

Edited April 18, 2010 by enouch

[dwai]

You really didn't add anything meaningful with this post either Lucky. What is the point of stating cliches like 'all things change'. Snore. I am a ba gua practitioner I work with change directly. This is just pedantic dude.

 

 

 

That whole ego this and ego that thing is like an artificial device that some people on this forum start bandying about when they want to take down someone else's position. It's a kind of ad hom actually and a red herring. I don't think you have enough personal meditation practice to have any actual real insight into what ego is or isn't. By your rationale, talking about one's personal experiences and how they led to certain thoughts or convictions is evidence of ego walls crumbling.

 

Give me a break and stop insulting my intelligence. Please. Enough. This is more patronizing garbage based on your own bias and total speculation. You be sure to let me know when my egos walls come crumbling down so I can apologize and act contrite.

 

May I ask what exactly are we categorizing under "Magical" abilities?

Is the ability to "Fa Jing" not potentially a "magical" ability that only a few Internal MA can do?

Does that mean that Ward off, roll back, press, push, etc are not energies that can projected into the outer world?

 

The Grand Master of my style of TC can stand on one leg, leaning awkwardly off-balance and send a 200 lb man slamming into the wall behind with one finger tip, simply by Fa Jing. There might have been some on this forum who has experienced this. Is it magical? Probably unbelievable from the perspective of "Science and the Scientific Method of Inquiry". But does it mean it cannot be done? Definitely! The proof is in the pudding (and one is not obligated to prove/disprove these things to insignificant individuals like James Randi).

[SFJane]

I don't know why Wim is continuing with his marvelous works...perhaps to spread the word about what is possible. Should he stop and allow skeptics to say it was never done? ''Never video taped?'' To answer that question I would have to engage in mind reading or judge him by my subjective standards. Should an artist stop painting? Creating? Anyway, you are the one who poo pooed subjective reports and wanted clear cut evidence for all the world to see. I could talk all day about my subjective experiences but wouldn't get anywhere because you deleted that as evidence in your opening salvo.

 

 

Let me ask you, have you checked your own experiences for filters, biases or wishful thinking? In my opening salvo, that is what I did. In a nutshell I stated I had experiences that I believed where one thing and later I reevaluated for the possibility that they indicated something else. This is ontological honesty we are talking about. Self deception, the ego and the attachments of the mind are some of the most difficult obstacles towards achieving a clear, no bullshit situational report from your inner world.

 

For the moment I've only skimmed the monster copypasta you posted but with regards to Jani, I once went without food and water for five days in an attempt to passively kill myself. The only reason I stopped was because I was threatened with being restrained and fed through a tube in my snout. After the first day or two, I had passed all my stool and my body was reabsorbing urine. I was actually under medical supervision and they are the ones who put a stop to my experiment but I had the will power to keep going.

 

According to the study findings, Jani was losing weight and this is in keeping with what we know about people who are starved. Do some research into how long people lasted in concentration camps with very little food or water. They persisted for weeks and even months and their bodies adapted to the low calorie diet. Jani has been practicing fasting for years and so ten days was probably pretty easily done for him.

 

Fasting for ten days and not pooping because you don't have any poop in your guts is not mind blowing man.

[enouch]

Let me ask you, have you checked your own experiences for filters, biases or wishful thinking? In my opening salvo, that is what I did. In a nutshell I stated I had experiences that I believed where one thing and later I reevaluated for the possibility that they indicated something else. This is ontological honesty we are talking about. Self deception, the ego and the attachments of the mind are some of the most difficult obstacles towards achieving a clear, no bullshit situational report from your inner world.

 

For the moment I've only skimmed the monster copypasta you posted but with regards to Jani, I once went without food and water for five days in an attempt to passively kill myself. The only reason I stopped was because I was threatened with being restrained and fed through a tube in my snout. After the first day or two, I had passed all my stool and my body was reabsorbing urine. I was actually under medical supervision and they are the ones who put a stop to my experiment but I had the will power to keep going.

 

According to the study findings, Jani was losing weight and this is in keeping with what we know about people who are starved. Do some research into how long people lasted in concentration camps with very little food or water. They persisted for weeks and even months and their bodies adapted to the low calorie diet. Jani has been practicing fasting for years and so ten days was probably pretty easily done for him.

 

Fasting for ten days and not pooping because you don't have any poop in your guts is not mind blowing man.

 

 

 

 

Yeah...you did just scan the monster/pasta I posted because[repost your walking videos] it is the first yogi who stopped his heartbeat that lost weight. Here in short, is the 411 on Prani:After day 10, the committee is satisfied with following matter:

 

1. The protocol was strictly adhered to.

2. Mr. Jani has not passed or dribbled urine during these 10 days.

3. He has not taken anything by mouth or by any other routes not even water for 10 days.

4. All his parameters remained within the range determined by the committee.

5. He has shown evidence of formation of urine, which seems to be reabsorbed from his bladder wall. However at present the committee does not have any scientific explanation for the same but the help of senior scientists and medical personnel of the country is being taken for the same.

 

We are surprised as to how he has survived despite above particularly without passing urine for 10 days and remaining generally physically fit.

[dwai]

Yeah...you did just scan the monster/pasta I posted because[repost your walking videos] it is the first yogi who stopped his heartbeat that lost weight. Here in short, is the 411 on Prani:After day 10, the committee is satisfied with following matter:

 

1. The protocol was strictly adhered to.

2. Mr. Jani has not passed or dribbled urine during these 10 days.

3. He has not taken anything by mouth or by any other routes not even water for 10 days.

4. All his parameters remained within the range determined by the committee.

5. He has shown evidence of formation of urine, which seems to be reabsorbed from his bladder wall. However at present the committee does not have any scientific explanation for the same but the help of senior scientists and medical personnel of the country is being taken for the same.

 

We are surprised as to how he has survived despite above particularly without passing urine for 10 days and remaining generally physically fit.

 

 

I am not sure if you guys had gone through this:

 

Beyond Biofeedback Swami Rama

 

 

[SFJane]

May I ask what exactly are we categorizing under "Magical" abilities?

Is the ability to "Fa Jing" not potentially a "magical" ability that only a few Internal MA can do?

Does that mean that Ward off, roll back, press, push, etc are not energies that can projected into the outer world?

 

The Grand Master of my style of TC can stand on one leg, leaning awkwardly off-balance and send a 200 lb man slamming into the wall behind with one finger tip, simply by Fa Jing. There might have been some on this forum who has experienced this. Is it magical? Probably unbelievable from the perspective of "Science and the Scientific Method of Inquiry". But does it mean it cannot be done? Definitely! The proof is in the pudding (and one is not obligated to prove/disprove these things to insignificant individuals like James Randi).

 

Well, I don't fully agree with this line of reasoning about science and magic dwai and here is why.

 

I assume you are familiar with the idea that technology sufficiently advanced could, to people who don't understand it, seem like magic and for all intents and purposes, is magic up until the point where the principles are finally understood by those who once feared or revered it.

 

Let's examine fa jin. Bruce told us that Fa jin simply means: 'to throw out power' and there are many ways both subtle and gross to do that.

 

To a person who does not understand the mechanics of an internal arts power push, witnessing someone get thrown back effortlessly like a rag doll could seem magical. But I say that a skill which is sufficiently advanced can seem magical while actually having mundane and easily understood but difficult to actualize principles behind it.

 

The thing with fa jin is, if it works it works, period. You can stand in front of me or anyone else that can do fa jin and say, "I am skeptic, I don't beleive in chi and my skeptic energy will turn off your fa jin." But then I push you and you go flying anyway despite your disbelief. I can say I did it with chi but you can certainly say that is was just a high level of expertise over biomechanical precision and chi doesn't enter the equation. But your disbelief can't prevent you from moving when I want you to move.

 

The energy underlying push, press, rollback etc is something else entirely dwai. At least in my opinion. You can put your hands on someone and project those energies inside them and unless they can feel chi they are going to sit there and look at you waiting for you to do something. And when you say that you just did peng on them they can say they didn't feel a thing. However, a student with sufficient sensitivity to chi will sense their own chi being influenced by your peng or lu or an or whatever you are doing and they can feel and eventually reproduce what you are showing them.

 

Unless you can feel chi and manipulate it yourself similarly then concepts like the hidden energy of push and rollback will be just an intellectual datum. An interesting concept as opposed to an obvious and live force that is somewhat under conscious control through intent.

 

I did something similar to what your master did about four years ago. I serendipitously met a man that was a wu style teacher who had twenty years of experience on him and taught classes in the park. We got along right away and soon we were making dates to practice push hands together before his classes. The concept of chi came up a few times and one time I allowed and encouraged him to push me into an inferior and awkward position, bending backwards. Then I lifted one foot and let him move back even more. Then I showed him how precarious my position was. Then I sent a command throughout my entire body to suddenly relax (to open space inside me to move) and then I sent a pulse into him through a new alignment that I created. This had the effect of overcoming my postural disadvantage in an instant and I started pushing him backwards from my new and more advantageous alignment.

 

So, I didn't send him flying with one finger into a wall but I did put myself in a weak position and then, through yielding and absorbing, I managed to create an internal wave that realigned me and countered his advantage with fa jin. I can say it was done with chi and from my pov, it was, but from a nonbeliever pov it could still be explained as having a natural aptitude for sensing kinetic forces and for using biomechanical efficiency as a force multiplier.

Edited April 18, 2010 by SFJane