Why I am against 'powers'

[SFJane]

I do not deny duality and it's goings on... and I do not deny non-duality and the Ocean that it is as the true power of Spirit.

 

Having said that I see no separtion such as you have personally recounted here that exists in that Ocean, thus I'm hearing your claims and rationalizations for the domination of another coming from a world or state of duality that includes good and evil, heavenly and demonic, light and dark, etc.. Also, I don't agree that particular names such as "Catholic" or perhaps those from other times and cultures as being a major main point here in the sense that certain of those forces exist in and as duality. Btw. and yes, I have seen parts of duality both within and without that exist in "my" mind, and more importantly in "the" mind. Further, from the tone of your witness you indicate to me (and whoever else hears similar to as I do) that you are speaking from a mind (or sitting in) influences of separation and violence - (whether such are self-generated or external)

 

I doubt you will agree with anything I've touched on, thus this string of yours will probably not hear any more from me.

 

Om

 

I am very disappointed with your reply and your circumlocutions. Believe whatever you want. Allow your mind to dominate your world view with biases you inherited from others. Believe in whatever fantasies you like most. I am also disappointed that you can not see fit to reply to me in more grounded and down to earth language without spewing duality this and duality that and Oceans and whatever.

[Cloudhand]

I just wanted to comment on this and thank you MJJ for posting it.

 

I had never heard of the 5 Whys before but the idea of it shares a similar characteristic with cognitive behavioral therapy. You don't need a CBT facilitator if you can understand and use the 5 Whys on yourself. That is something I learned how to do during the course of healing myself of my mental health issues.

 

When I learned how to ask myself 'why' I thought and did certain things I found that my own mind could give me wrong or misleading answers. That is part of the evasive nature of the unknown or untamed mind. The ego tells you, "We are too smart to have fallen for something like that or for getting into trouble ergo it must be the fault of some other agent for our predicament."

 

The mind throws up false causes and solutions as a defense mechanism to avoid the crushing blow of accepting one's own culpability or failure. You start off thinking this is going to take only a handful of 'why' and instead you get ten or twenty whys to sort through. But, if you are willing to cause yourself ego-pain then you keep insisting on the 'why' and you improve at the query aspect and with giving yourself honest answers.

 

In time you start getting intuitive answers to the 'why'. I continued to perform a structured query to see if the intuitive answer was in fact correct on the first shot. It turned out that eventually my intuition was clearly and reliably giving me the 'bottom-line' answer to only one instance of asking myself 'why'.

 

That is guidepost that indicated to me that I was making good progress not only with being honest with myself but in being able to dispel my own mental enchantments that I threw over myself to avoid dealing with the truth.

 

Ok here it goes you not going to like it but you need to let go. All hang ups come from within, truth is what is now no more no less. Get out there and do something you like and stop thinking. We make ourself sick, be free my friend and soar high with the eagles. Peace Cloudhand

[SFJane]

Ok here it goes you not going to like it but you need to let go. All hang ups come from within, truth is what is now no more no less. Get out there and do something you like and stop thinking. We make ourself sick, be free my friend and soar high with the eagles. Peace Cloudhand

 

Spare me your patronizing and platitudes. You have not contributed anything meaningful in this thread. Look at your first post on page 1.

 

If you train for powers karma will pay a vist and knock you on your butt. So beware, freedom remains the quest, but the path is full of dangers. Cloudhand

 

 

This is pedantic. You didn't even have the wherewithal to respond directly to my OP confession. You just tried to drop in and sound like you have some fortune cookie wisdom.

 

Who do you think you are to tell me when it is time to let go. I'm the one who created this thread. I decide what posts in this thread I will respond to. I decide when I've had enough of it. You need to mind your own business and that's the truth. Nobody appointed you the thread psychologist or moderator. Take your own advice, log out and go practice.

Edited April 19, 2010 by SFJane

[Aetherous]

There's no need to defend against everyone here, Jane!

[SFJane]

There's no need to defend against everyone here, Jane!

 

Thanks Scotty, I am aware of this. It's my energy and my time to waste as I see fit. Please respect my discretion of what battles I choose to fight and what posts I am going to respond to and that includes your post just now too.

[Guest paul walter]

Hi Paul, I agree that this culture is a kind of spawning pool for a variety of mental illness.

 

Correct me if I am wrong but, are you saying that when people fantasize about things they are mentally ill?

 

What exactly is your definition of mental illness out of curiosity?

 

 

 

But, we are not the ones making mental health policy that effects millions of people and their treatment options, legal rights and prognosis.

 

 

 

If you said, “Most illness or Many illnesses”, I would have agreed without qualification. I can tell you that there are some conditions which no amount of mental stability or surrender can control. Amoebic dysentery, terminal radiation exposure, HIV (extremely mentally and physically healthy HIV patients can keep their viral load low and keep AIDS at bay but they never extract the virus from it's RNA hack that it does to stay inside your cells.). Tell someone who contracts Ebola, dengue fever or sleeping sickness to think positively and let go of their negative holding patterns and then stick around and document how well that works out for them.

 

 

 

Oh Paul, if only I could forget them. Unfortunately reductionist biopsychiatry and the neuroscience that it draws it's theories from is the preeminent authority on mental health in this time in our history. I agree that our culture is unbalanced in significant ways and that biopsychiatry is a sign of these times but it is unavoidable.

 

Right now in this country biopsychiatrists are getting away with creating artificial epidemics in children. The appalling over-hype and over-diagnosis of ADHD and Bipolar Disorder is a crime against children and hardly anything meaningful or effective is being done to stop it.

 

 

You are very welcome Paul. I was hoping the folks here were ready for this kind of talk. I am not sure my assumption was correct.

 

 

 

My definition of mental illness would be the chronic inability to see ones self clearly. I think when people fantasise or even think then that is mental dis-ease. This insight based on my own 'experience' of what they call emptiness. Relative to the world/mind we live in, emptiness gives a whole new perspective on every received assumption we inherit. Everything I knew was no longer valid when I reached that stage. Also, my definition/understanding of the concept of evil has come as a result of my experiences with the mentally ill-it is simply the complete non-understanding of causal relations/yin-yang. Every horror is possible when this state defines a persons relation to the earth/self. Explains a lot about the world. Of course some evil is acceptable socially since it is a necessary ingredient in a rich and varied zeitgeist as well as being a natural outcome of the ignorance that must be fostered in a passified population.

 

 

Yes, I see all the psychiatric creationists (with DSMIV as their Bible)) doing their harm in my world everyday, and the consequences of it! With inept parenting to back it up, there will be no end to the creation of "disorders" for our "loved ones"-suffer the little children. Have you read "Selling Sickness", a book that goes into some of the newer disorders like SAD and ADHD and how the companies/psychs/doctors cooked them up?

 

Sorry, that was lax of me to say most illness can be cured with the mind. I was meaning most with an emotional root cause. I have been through dramatic healings within myself that have come about through embracing the emptiness and the consequent letting go/resolution that brings to body/mind. It's very good to see you putting Frantzis to use-something I'd almost given up seeing on TTB--all those fire methods!! I know most are looking through the wrong end of the telescope when it comes to practices. All this lifetime of practice stuff etc just seems to me an agreed upon way of avoiding the real/hard work (confronting 'self'). I have used 'Relaxing Into Your Being' to get through complex PTSD with dramatic results very quickly. Best, Paul.

Edited April 20, 2010 by paul walter

[buddhasbellybuttonfluff]

Dear SFJane,

 

Re; “innocent open heartedness to matters in general”

 

Main Entry: in·no·cence

Pronunciation: \ˈi-nə-sən(t)s\

Function: noun

Date: 14th century

1 a : freedom from guilt or sin through being unacquainted with evil : blamelessness b : chastity c : freedom from legal guilt of a particular crime or offense d (1) : freedom from guile or cunning : simplicity (2) : lack of worldly experience or sophistication e : lack of knowledge : ignorance

 

To start a thread like this is to have an opinion or a conviction based on experience and that involves losing your innocence cherry. 'Open heartedness' is this supposed to be a euphemism for not calling bs when you see bs? In what child psychology book is youthful innocence equated with open heartedness?

IMHO, innocence is not about the experience one has, but how does one react.

 

Do you think it's possible to have worthwhile and educative communication while having a strong prejudice on the subject? Are aye and nay parties willing to set up an agreeable demonstration that provides shared first hand experience, or will the discussion continue 20+ pages without any actual attempt to resolve the discrepancy?

 

To me most of this thread seems to deal with second hand evidence of authors and events that have little or no impact on practical level, at least for the uniniated. Such token truths offer as little impact on anyone's life as knowing the existence of the Red Spot of Jupiter, unless you are an astronomer. Is calling that kind of token trading silly the same thing you would term "calling the bs?"

 

Anyways, I wouldn't start yelling "BS!" at the sight of it, but take it to a compost and turn it to a nourishment of gardens. The flowers love it, so why wouldn't I?

 

Why are you concerned with what other people's emotional or spiritual state is in an online thread? Is your inner garden so well tended that you have time and energy to burn on analyzing and worrying about other people's gardens? What do you care about what folks are getting out of threads like this? I for one, could care less how happy or how bitter other people are or how their spirit is doing. It's none of my concern. As for heartfelt, you can be sure that most of my posts in a thread like this are as heartfelt as I can make them.

As far as me and my conduct is concerned, it was an obvious error of judgement to directly address this important topic in a thread that had already gathered a slightly confrontational quality. If my meager contributions are unsound, then there's no reason why anyone should become upset of it, since there's certainly plenty of good discussion to be made.

 

I noticed your initial post in the Lobby about stress and trauma and I respectfully suggest you take a gander at the blog linked in my sig. I've had amazing success in dealing with stress and past traumas and on that blog I talk a little about how I got over those traumas and learned to destress myself.

Thanks, I will take a look tonight.

 

Blessings

Edited April 20, 2010 by buddhasbellybuttonfluff

[xakarii]

"You have not contributed anything meaningful in this thread." -An amalgamation of causes and conditions that takes itself seriously

 

What is your standard for "meaningful"?

 

I'd be interested to know how you think "Ontological Honesty" is possible when you yourself admit to the pernicious nature of cognitive bias of which no one with cognitive activity is unsusceptible, lest you think yourself above the fray when it comes to unadulterated, true thoughts of world-reforming power.

 

 

And to the individual that went on a long-winded screed in response to some youtube video: I won't bother defending the more poorly conducted experiments because they're obviously not what I was referring to anymore than the deluded scientism-absolutists refer to the works of high-school science projects to prove a point about objective absolutism. Were I to beseech you to look at the more sophisticated experiments involving radiometers, anti-static mats it would be in vain because you've already made up your mind due in large part to cognitive bias and an unwillingness to consider the evidence that opposes your point of view as distinct from just the junk that's easily refuted by a grade-schooler (congrats on achieving that much by the way) it would be like asking a fish to consider the possiblity of a biosphere outside it's pond. It comes down to a willingness to believe your own perceptions at some point. Sorry to be so blunt about it, but your post is just dripping with self satisfied smugness in your ability to tear down straw-houses (still though, I am impressed at your observational prowess) as opposed to create anything new or inventive to support your point of view (assuming you have one, from what I can see in your post you seem to stand against bioelectrical energy and for the obvious alternative- ________, am I right?).

[宁]

Hi SF Jane,

 

i'd like to add my 2 c if i may:

 

- don't worry about power, there are so few people that have it, that is mostly a myth

 

- second: we won't find them here, that's for sure. power means alot of discipline, which is contrary to all that WE have been taught since we were kids

 

- people hardly grow up, and psychic power is about growing up - an additional effect of it, you can't avoid it, much like a tree cannot avoid growing and making flowers and fruits

 

[Mokona]

Hi SF Jane,

 

i'd like to add my 2 c if i may:

 

- don't worry about power, there are so few people that have it, that is mostly a myth

 

- second: we won't find them here, that's for sure. power means alot of discipline, which is contrary to all that WE have been taught since we were kids

 

- people hardly grow up, and psychic power is about growing up - an additional effect of it, you can't avoid it, much like a tree cannot avoid growing and making flowers and fruits

 

Hi Littleone,

 

It seems that there are plenty of people who hold enough power to hold an interesting workshop, and many who don't advertise as they prefer privacy or can't schedule it in with the current work cycle they hold, or just are not interested in teaching. What do you consider "myth" exactly? I'm not sure what you mean, I have a friend who can do some things I consider "powerful", I have even managed healings that I consider to be amazing or "powerful" becuase of the strong healing effect. (Thanks to Gd, I have no idea how I was pulling some of these things off.)

 

Also, that is not to say that such people don't post on forums either, I find that to be a little sily, your saying that becuase someone developed ability either on there ownsome or even with the help of an ally/teacher that they wouldn't bother to post on an online forum? That's just generalization, well isn't it? If I say: "White people never pick their own strawberries becuase they are all rich." Then that is also blanketing a group of individuals, forgetting that different motivations and factors make up each one of us.

 

 

As to your third point, yes I see specific examples of people who don't "grow up" in one form or another at work or around town, but remember that we all have our "demons." Sure, someone may be a star at work or on the employee baseball diamond, but could also have a terrible homelife or be extremely arrogant, or whatever. The same goes of psychic abilities, some of which are used accidently anyway.

 

I'm not attacking anything you said, just providing more viewpoints, hopefully widening your outlook, since you can find these same examples yourself i'm sure.

[xakarii]

As a clarification of my own viewpoint, which I guess you could say most readily identifies with the school of thought known as "fallibilistic empiricism".

 

I'd like you to know, SFJane, that I do not intend to shut you down by any means, only to proffer an alternative or something of a compromise between absolutism and relativism. As I'm obviously no PHD in Quantum Mechanics or any other science of the kind, I'd be more than happy to engage you on philosophical ground, to avoid any forthcoming disappointment.

 

 

I've found this discussion thus far quite interesting and it's allowed me to read new meaning into this introduction of the Tibetan book of the Dead or "Bardo Thodol" by Carl Jung (note that his use of the word soul is more appropriately rendered in the original German "steele" as distinct from more common connotation surrounding the word:

 

It's philosophy contains the quintessence of Buddhist psychological criticism; and, as such, one can truly say that it is of an unexampled superiority. Not only the 'wrathful' but also the 'peaceful' deities are conceived as sangsaric projections of the human psyche, an idea that seems all too obvious to the enlightened European, because it reminds him of his own banal simplifications. But though the European can easily explain away these deities as projections, he would be quite incapable of positing them at the same time as real. The Bardo Thodol can do that , because, in certain of its most essential metaphysical premises, it has the enlightened as well as the unenlightened European at a disadvantage. The ever-present, unspoken assumption of the Bardo Thodol is the antinominal character of all metaphysical assertions, and also the idea of the qualitative difference of the various levels of consciousness and of the metaphyiscal realities conditioned by them. The background of this unusual book is not the niggardly European 'either-or' but a magnificently affirmative 'both-and'. This statement may appear objectionable to the Western philosopher, for the West loves clarity and unambiguity; consequently, one philosopher clings to the position, 'God is' while another clings equally fervantly to the negation. 'God is not'. What would these hostile brethren make of an assertion like the following:

'Recognizing the voidness of thine own intellect to the Buddha-hood, and knowing it at the same time to be thine own consciousness, thou shalt abide in the state of the divine mind of the Buddha.'

Such an assertion is, I fear, as unwelcome to our Western philosophy as it is to our theology. The Bardo Thodol is in the highest degree psychological in its outlook; but, with us, philosophy and theology are still in the mediaeval, pre-psychological stage where only the assertions are listened to, explained, defended, criticized and disputed, while the authority that makes them has, by general consent, been deposed as outside the scope of discussion.

Metaphyical assertions, however, are statements of the psyche, and are therefore psychological. To the Western mind, which compensates its well-known feelings of resentment by a slavish regard for 'rational' explanations, this obvious truth seems all too obvious, or else it is seen as an inadmissible negation of meta-physical 'truth'. Whenever the Westerner hears the word 'psychological', it always sounds to him like 'only psychological'. For him the 'soul' is something unworthy, pitifully small, and a lot more besides. He therefore prefers to use the word 'mind' instead, though he likes to pretend at the same time that a statement which may in fact be very subjective indeed is made by the 'mind', naturally by the 'Univeral Mind', or even-at a pinch-by the 'Absolute' itself. This rather ridiculous presumption is probably a compensation for the regrettable smallness of the soul. It almost seems as if Anatole France had uttered a truth which were valid for the whole Western world when, in his Penguin Island, Catherine d'Alexandrie offers this advice to God: 'Donnez leur une ame, mais une petite'! [Give them a soul, but a little one!']

It is the soul which, by the divine creative power inherent in it makes the metaphysical assertion; it posits the distinction between metaphysical entities. Not only is it the condition of a metaphysical reality, it is that reality.

 

...

 

Perhaps it is not granted to many of us to see the world as something 'given'. A great reversal of standpoint, calling for much sacrifice, is needed before we can see the world as 'given' by the very nature of the soul. It is so much more straight-forward, more dramatic, impressive, and therefore more convincing, to see that all the things happen to me than to observe how I make them happen. Indeed, the animal nature of man makes him resist seeing himself as the maker of his circumstances. That is why attempts of this kind were always the object of secret initiations, culminating as a rule in a figurative death which symboized the total character of this reversal. And, in point of fact, the instruction given in the Bardo Thodol serves to recall to the dead man the experiences of his initiation and the teachings of his guru, for the instruction is, at bottom, nothing less than an initiation of the dead into the Bardo life, just as the initiation of the living was a preparation for the Beyond. Such was the case, at least, with all the mystery cults in ancient civilizations from the time of the Egyptian and Eleusinian mysteries.

Edited April 22, 2010 by xakarii

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

By way of a bump, perhaps we can discuss the role of powers and enlightenment in the spiritual journey. In my opinion, enlightenment occurs not when one becomes powerful, but rather when one becomes 'nothing'.

[RiverSnake]

I enjoyed your story immensely SFjane.

[NeiChuan]

If you train for powers karma will pay a vist and knock you on your butt. So beware, freedom remains the quest, but the path is full of dangers. Cloudhand

 

This.

[Sloppy Zhang]

*raises hand*

 

I train for powers.

 

 

 

Enlightenment and freedom and all that stuff sounds good too. And being a good person and being happy are all some very nice by-products. But in my very humble (or not so humble?) opinion, I'm already a pretty nice, compassionate person. But powers seem immensely convenient and helpful. And if you could get them through various types of training..... yeah. Sounds like something worth having.

 

I do respect the experiences that other people have. But.... well..... yeah, still something I'd like to experience for myself.

 

 

 

As to songs' proposed topic for the occurrence of enlightenment, I find that I cannot comment on it.

Edited December 30, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Jetsun]

I expect people seek power in order to run away from feeling weak, helpless and well powerless. But I suspect you gain far more power by accepting or rather not trying to run away from those sorts of feelings, so you gain more power by embracing powerlessness, because then you have nothing to fear or waste energy fighting against.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I expect people seek power in order to run away from feeling weak, helpless and well powerless. But I suspect you gain far more power by accepting or rather not trying to run away from those sorts of feelings, so you gain more power by embracing powerlessness, because then you have nothing to fear or waste energy fighting against.

 

How about you go embrace your powerlessness when someone is punching your face in, stabbing you with a knife, or threatening your family, friends, or loved ones, or currently harming them.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Do you need siddhis to overcome them? I think you misunderstand, Sloppy.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Do you need siddhis to overcome them? I think you misunderstand, Sloppy.

 

Well see it varies.

 

You might be able to use karate in order to overcome a potential mugger. Karate has given you the power to overcome that.

 

But maybe if someone is planning to detonate a dirty bomb in your area, perhaps the siddhi of foresight could help you get out of there

[Aetherous]

.

Edited February 24, 2011 by center

[Jetsun]

How about you go embrace your powerlessness when someone is punching your face in, stabbing you with a knife, or threatening your family, friends, or loved ones, or currently harming them.

 

If that is what you are made to feel then rejecting that only causes you more suffering. I don't mean that you should walk around letting anyone do what they want to you, you should do what you can to avoid those things, but if someone puts a gun in your face you are powerless, or you get some terrible disease you are powerless, or when you get old and senile you may be powerless, the issue then is what to do with those feelings. If you haven't ever been able to make peace with being made to feel that way and spent your whole life dedicated to never being made to feel that way ever again(like many people who have suffered unjust abuse or bad childhoods do) then you will suffer terribly when it happens to you.

 

In the face of death you may be just as powerless as when you were born and all those powers you spent your life trying to master wont help you... and you could die today

[Sloppy Zhang]

So anyway...when things are perceived just as they are, powers come naturally.

 

How do you know this?

[Sloppy Zhang]

but if someone puts a gun in your face you are powerless

 

Not entirely.

 

Depending on what they're doing, and depending on your own training and experience, you may very well have the ability to easily overpower someone with a gun.

 

In the face of death you may be just as powerless as when you were born and all those powers you spent your life trying to master wont help you... and you could die today

 

Or you could say, "damn that was a good life! I was a badass!"

 

Don't make assumptions about powers, about people who have power, or about people who seek power!

[NeiChuan]

Well see it varies.

 

You might be able to use karate in order to overcome a potential mugger. Karate has given you the power to overcome that.

 

But maybe if someone is planning to detonate a dirty bomb in your area, perhaps the siddhi of foresight could help you get out of there

 

 

Hm to each his own. I have no problem with someone wanting to protect themselves, unless it borders onto other peoples lives.

 

A Teacher use to tell me. The reason you never hear of monks dying in such cruel ways is simply because, they have no dying ground.

 

They're almost always at the right place, at the right time. Very often you don't need super powers to do that.. Just a good head on your shoulders.

 

Not putting down self development. If you want to further yourself in one way that can protect you, that's not exactly a crime.

 

If you come across it down the path, there's not much wrong with practicing it. May be something wrong with basing your entire lifes work on it though.

 

May find yourself sitting on the wrong mountain top. Peering over the others climbing the mountain "you" were meant to.

[Aetherous]

.

Edited February 24, 2011 by center