A very strong, literal, translation of the Tao Te Ching

[secularfuture]

I found this online yesterday:

http://www.hermetica.info/#LaoziSkipDown

 

I really enjoy literal translations. I prefer honesty over poetic licensing; it reflects the heart of the original teaching, and not to the heart of interpreter.

 

What is your opinion of literal translations?

Edited April 7, 2010 by secularfuture

[Marblehead]

Interesting presentation.

 

I didn't read the whole thing but enough to get the 'feel' of it.

 

Having no knowledge of the language myself I wouldn't be able to speak to the accuracy of the translation.

 

I do think, however, that this would not be a good read for someone just beginning their study of Taoism. This is because it leaves open too many possibilities for misunderstanding or even a total lack of understanding.

 

Thanks for sharing that.

 

Peace & Love!

[Sloppy Zhang]

Learn the language.

 

The difference between literal/figurative translation is nothing compared to the difference between original language and translated.

 

Become fluent in a language, then buy a book written in that language, then get a book translated into another language you can read. You'll start to see how stuff was translated. You'll see why it was translated, realize it could have been translated a different way, but the original conveys a different meaning entirely. Sometimes you just can't avoid translating something in a poor way because there is not always a 1-to-1 equivalent for certain words or phrases.

 

That said, if you are stuck reading translated copies, get as many translations as you can find, read as many as you can, and pick out the ones you like the best.

[secularfuture]

Learn the language.

Easier said than done.

 

Even Chinese people have a hard time reading the Tao Te Ching.

 

Now if you're talking about more modern texts like Mahayana Sutras, that might be a little easier. Pali could also be tackled. The Tipitaka isn't worded as densely as the Tao Te Ching.

 

Interesting presentation.

 

I didn't read the whole thing but enough to get the 'feel' of it.

 

Having no knowledge of the language myself I wouldn't be able to speak to the accuracy of the translation.

 

I do think, however, that this would not be a good read for someone just beginning their study of Taoism. This is because it leaves open too many possibilities for misunderstanding or even a total lack of understanding.

 

Thanks for sharing that.

 

Peace & Love!

You're welcome.

[Aetherous]

What is your opinion of literal translations?

 

It doesn't matter, because no one truly understands the book without studying under the author personally.

[secularfuture]

It doesn't matter, because no one truly understands the book without studying under the author personally.

A book can't be understood unless you can sit with the author? So, to understand Universe in a Nutshell, I have bring Stephen Hawking over to my house?

[Aetherous]

No I just meant the Tao Te Ching.

[Marblehead]

Learn the language.

 

The difference between literal/figurative translation is nothing compared to the difference between original language and translated.

 

 

Thanks, my friend. And although you are right I think I am beyond the need for that now. (And I'm too old anyhow. Hehehe.)

 

Peace & Love!

[soaring crane]

Am I missing something? This isn't a "literal translation" at all:

 

A path fit for travel

Is not an unvarying path

A name fit for calling

Is not a generic name

 

"Generic"? That's a literary stretch. So is "fit for travel" and "fit for calling". A "literal translation" would start "Dao not Dao" "Name not Named", etc.. They lay out the Chinese pictograms piece for piece, and the result is incomprehensible jibberish. This is a translation, afaik, one of about 150 in english.

 

To understand "the book", you have to understand the culture it was created in and speaking to. The DDJ wasn't "authored", it was manifested by the Zeitgeist, the Qi, of a very specific context. And for accessing that, most of us have to rely on scholars doing honest research. So do the modern Chinese, as secular said. Competent, honest and objective bilingual experts on the Warring States period aren't falling out of the trees, lol. Learning Mandarin might help, but I don't think it would make much of a difference, not in this case.

 

~~~~~~~~~~

 

OT Tangent time... My favorite DDJ to read is a German work by Günther Debon. His goal was to create a work that closely resembles the DDJ in tone and message. He worked straight from the original Mawngdui texts with the Wangbi commentaries. The German language is flexible in ways that English is not, so he could turn phrases around to mimic the rhythmic structure of the original, plus rhyme where the original rhymes. The result is poetic and beautiful. Plus dense and archaic enough to really force me to think about what I'm reading. I would have to turn to Shakespeare to find an English equivalent.

 

Könnten wir weisen den Weg,

Es wäre kein ewiger Weg.

Könnten wir nennen den Namen,

Es wäre kein ewiger Namen.

 

Was ohne Namen,

ist Anfang von Himmel und Erde

Was Namen hat,

ist Mutter den zehntausend Wesen.

 

Wahrlich:

Wer ewig ohne Begehren,

Wird das Geheimste schaun;

Wer ewig hat Begehren,

Erblickt nur seinen Saum.

 

Diese beiden sind eins und gleich.

Hervorgetreten, sind ihre Namen verschieden.

Ihre Vereinung nennen wir mystisch:

Die Pforte zum jedwedem Geheimnis.

 

 

Edited April 8, 2010 by soaring crane

[Sloppy Zhang]

Easier said than done.

 

I never said it was gonna be easy

 

Even Chinese people have a hard time reading the Tao Te Ching.

 

Studying contemporary Chinese is enough to make you realize why literacy would be an issue, let alone classical language

 

 

 

Still, if you want to do it, it can be done. There are people who can do it. If it's really important to you, then you will do it.

[buscon]

[soaring crane]

[secularfuture]

Am I missing something? This isn't a "literal translation" at all:

The second translation in that book is more literal. It's a Matrix, word for word, translation. It could come in handy for serious, in-depth, study.

 

I've been searching for years for a good translation of the Tao Te Ching. Every version I come across always messes something up! It's very frustrating, and this book has been kind of helpful.

[Marblehead]

What about Italian? I bet it's especially beautiful in your mother tongue, and about twice as long...

 

I'm sure it is because I'm sure they included pictures of all the hand and arm movements typical of the Italian language. Hehehe.

 

Peace & Love!

[buscon]

I'm sure it is because I'm sure they included pictures of all the hand and arm movements typical of the Italian language. Hehehe.

 

Peace & Love!

 

ehehe, dunno actually: I've just read it some english translations and the german one of Wilhelm - it's difficult to find italian books in Germany, but some friends will bring me some copy from Italy, soon or later.

Julius Evola's translation should be quite interesting, but I haven't read it yet... I'll let you know

[soaring crane]

The second translation in that book is more literal. It's a Matrix, word for word, translation. It could come in handy for serious, in-depth, study.

 

I've been searching for years for a good translation of the Tao Te Ching. Every version I come across always messes something up! It's very frustrating, and this book has been kind of helpful.

 

Oh! Ok, well, I guess I did miss something, lol. Still, I've read that kind of character for character breakdown and never really found it useful, me not being a translator and stuff.

 

 

I'm sure it is because I'm sure they included pictures of all the hand and arm movements typical of the Italian language. Hehehe.

 

Peace & Love!

 

You think you jest, MB, but you're closer to the truth than you know! All those adornments occur in the written Italian, too. I was involved in a project putting together a 600+ page product catalog in 8 languages. The Italian text needed consistently 1/3 to 2 times as much space as all the other languages. Caused a lot of havoc with the layout... They use whole phrases to poetically describe things that get compacted into one or two words in English.

[Marblehead]

 

You think you jest, MB, but you're closer to the truth than you know! All those adornments occur in the written Italian, too. I was involved in a project putting together a 600+ page product catalog in 8 languages. The Italian text needed consistently 1/3 to 2 times as much space as all the other languages. Caused a lot of havoc with the layout... They use whole phrases to poetically describe things that get compacted into one or two words in English.

 

I never did learn the written language but I did get fair with the spoken conversational Italian. I really do love to hear the language spoken or sung.

 

I had a ball with the little Italian I knew when I went to Mexico. Made people laugh all the time when the words had dramatically different meanings.

 

I also enjoy hearing Spanish and Cajun French in music. It is much prettier than English.

 

Peace & Love!