Real Meaning of Dao De Jing

[freeform]

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Edited October 23, 2019 by freeform

[thaddeus]

Thank you for your understanding, Harry. I admit that perhaps a high price is not the best way to shield something divine being away from profanity. But yet I do not have a better way.

The original work is in classical Chinese, there are not many modern Chinese can read classical Chinese easily. Fortunately, I did major in Traditional Chinese Medicine in the university, and so I can read classical Chinese well. Furthermore, this is a Dao cultivation book, there are a lot of practice depictions, if one does not have the living experience of practice, it is very hard to understand them. Fortunately again, I have the experience of internal cultivation for almost 20 years. Even though I have these advantages, to translate such a book, I still feel it is much harder than I write a book in the same length by myself.

The book is very long; the full English version will be about one thousand pages. The book contains a lot of profound information, just as a friend says: "There is enough things to contemplate and learn in the first part that I will not need anything more for many years".

Therefore, I really do not think that $81 for a part of this translation is too expensive so long as you are really ready to read such a profound book.

Read Chapter 3 of the Tao Te Ching. I'll copy one of the many translations of this divine work:

3

If you overesteem great men,

people become powerless.

If you overvalue possessions,

people begin to steal.

 

The Master leads

by emptying people's minds

and filling their cores,

by weakening their ambition

and toughening their resolve.

He helps people lose everything

they know, everything they desire,

and creates confusion

in those who think that they know.

 

Practice not-doing,

and everything will fall into place.

 

T

[thaddeus]

People, come one... although I personally don't feel that a high price (whatever that is) is a good distinguishment for "worthy" or "unworty"... nevertheless... those who are honestly interested will find a way to pay the price... and 81 dollars isn't much at all for a translation...do you think? There are many many endless hours involved in doing such a translation...

 

but if I get it correct the "critiscism" does not really refer to the price for the complete translation but for getting access to a part of the translation... one can talk about this... (Li Jiong... you hear?)

 

To those who feel "offended" by Li Jiongs words I assume he will not mind me saying that he is doing his best with his English, but that it can be that it sometimes does not come accross as he very likely means it... give him the bonus of not being a native speaker and don't judge him by his language only... up to this point I have learned him to be a very honest person, willing to share what he really has experienced and what he hasn't.

 

Regarding "real" and "fake"... a commentary by a practitioner (Huang Yuanji... please note that Li Jiong does not say it is his commentary, but that he is the translator of the book "Real Meaning of Dao De Jing"...!) of the art gives the book more credit in my opinion, than a modern day commentary without a practitioner's experience...

 

Harry

The issue for me is not 81 dollars. I make 81 dollars in about 45 minutes in my job. I can drop 81 dollars at lunch. It's no big deal for me. I don't live in a poverty consciousness. My problem here is not about poor english or high prices, or being offended by words or realness vs. fakeness.

The problem I see is someone joining here and immediately trying to sell something and get followers under the guise of 'discussion' and 'just looking for commentary'. This is what is really behind all the 'red flag' comments.

To divert this issue into one of 'how much are the secrets worth' is avoiding the big pink elephant in the living room. It's just not ethical. And then the comments about people who don't pay the money are 'unworthy' just appalled me.

I appreciate it takes many hours to translate a 1000 page book. Great, then put an advertisement above along with the 'tao of youth' and the 'radiant health taichi dvd'. My two cents however is that if it takes so much hard work and toil to translate the works, I don't really want to read them. The tao is an 'easy' path..a labor of love.

T

[SheepishLord]

I just purchased a copy of this $81 book because I am proud and honored to support someone who devotes himself to cultivation.

 

Really, quite a few of you here DISGUST me. All talking about your principles but you can't cough up money to someone who translates a cultivation text!!! You should all be ashamed! If he does rip you off then a curse is on him for cheating people in terms of cultivation and at least you demonstrated in a concrete manner your committment to achievement.

 

-Plato

Edited March 12, 2006 by SheepishLord

[thaddeus]

I just purchased a copy of this $81 book because I am proud and honored to support someone who devotes himself to cultivation.

 

Really, quite a few of you here DISGUST me. All talking about your principles but you can't cough up money to someone who translates a cultivation text!!! You should all be ashamed! If he does rip you off then a curse is on him for cheating people in terms of cultivation and at least you demonstrated in a concrete manner your committment to achievement.

 

Losers...

-Plato

Funny, I was going to buy your book...support a fellow NYer and seeker..

"was"

I see you're in good company...maybe you can hawk the book on your website too..

T

[Smile]

I am translating a valuable book <Real Meaning of Dao De Jing>, the first part of this invaluable translation is now available at http://www.yiquando.com/Dao.html. Any comments are welcome.

Hello Li Jiong,

I finally had more time to read through your site. Very nice energy and clear understanding of spiritual cultivation and what it takes. You were too kind when you said Western world is about 20 years behind in understanding taoist practices. I would say the Western world is mislead about what taoist cultivation is. It became the path to gain power, not the path to bring you back with the flow of Tao. Buddha, Lao Tzu, Confucious and many others were all talking about the same principles of cultivation.

 

Thank you for your efforts.

[Smile]

The problem I see is someone joining here and immediately trying to sell something and get followers under the guise of 'discussion' and 'just looking for commentary'.

 

I also saw that. But after I looked through the materials that the gentleman has to offer, I see a really nice hearted person with good intentions. And I think we should support these kind of people.

[SheepishLord]

Funny, I was going to buy your book...support a fellow NYer and seeker..

"was"

I see you're in good company...maybe you can hawk the book on your website too..

T

 

 

See, I wasn't sure who was who around here, which is why I directed my post to nobody in particular.

 

Looks like you got caught in the trap! Not only did you respond with anger, but with elementary school take-aways games!

 

-Plato

Edited March 12, 2006 by SheepishLord

[sunshine]

 

Fucking loser...

 

-Plato

 

An honest question, Plato, I always wondered if that kind of language says something about virtue or not?

[thaddeus]

Oh no! I made a mistake! PLEEEEASE buy my book! LOL!!!

 

NOT!!!

 

I don't need your support, and if you were going to by my book, then you would have already. That's what a virtuous person (especially someone who makes *gasp* so much money ) would immediately have done.

 

Just as game recognizes game, merit recognizes merit--and acts on it.

 

See, I wasn't sure who were the true pieces of shit around here, which is why I directed my post to nobody in particular. I figured all the pieces of shit would automatically respond.

 

Looks like you got caught in the trap! Not only did you respond with anger, but with elementary school take-aways games!

 

Fucking loser...

 

-Plato

 

Yawn...

[Li Jiong]

ahh I see! That's fine. Many marketing campaigns here in the west focus on how their product is *the one and only real secret* to whatever (whether to get rid of wrinkles, become healthy, attract success etc.) That's the reason many people tend to glaze over when offered such a 'real secret'. My suggestion is to focus mainly on the fact that you are translating this text as an experienced practitioner - so your interpretation is far more useful to other practitioners than a translation done by a language scholar. Saying that western practitioners are behind Chinese practitioners or that this book is sacred puts people like me off.

 

I'm personally in agreement with thelerner and smile. I remember one time, after a very long meditation I picked up an orange to eat - and through the process of eating it (took me at least 30 minutes!) I gained an amazingly profound realisation, which I couldn't possibly put into words. What I understand from what Smile said - is that it's your interpretation of the book/the orange/Taoist practice - is the 'real' deal. You can get profound realisations from the most mundane of things. You can also get profound understanding from reading a book written by a highly proficient practitioner - but you cant possibly say that my orange experience is any less 'real' or less profound than my experience of reading a book. Divinity is in the eye of the beholder - that's all...

 

Thank you for your advice again! I will try to improve the message in the future.

 

The issue for me is not 81 dollars. I make 81 dollars in about 45 minutes in my job. I can drop 81 dollars at lunch. It's no big deal for me. I don't live in a poverty consciousness. My problem here is not about poor english or high prices, or being offended by words or realness vs. fakeness.

The problem I see is someone joining here and immediately trying to sell something and get followers under the guise of 'discussion' and 'just looking for commentary'. This is what is really behind all the 'red flag' comments.

To divert this issue into one of 'how much are the secrets worth' is avoiding the big pink elephant in the living room. It's just not ethical. And then the comments about people who don't pay the money are 'unworthy' just appalled me.

I appreciate it takes many hours to translate a 1000 page book. Great, then put an advertisement above along with the 'tao of youth' and the 'radiant health taichi dvd'. My two cents however is that if it takes so much hard work and toil to translate the works, I don't really want to read them. The tao is an 'easy' path..a labor of love.

T

 

Thank you for your opinion. Unfortunately, I do not feel it is ashamed to advertise for a great product.

 

BTW, I really would not like to offend you, but to be honest, yet you are not welcome to read this translation.

[SheepishLord]

Yawn...

 

It is actually very typical that when someone is confronted with the ugly truth about themselves they go unconscious!

 

NOTE TO EVERYONE WHO READS THIS:

 

It is typical in politics that when someone is losing due to superior skill to see the loser of the debate resort to mockery. The reason for this is that mockery creates laughter, which switches the brains of those in the audience to mamallian mode and out of intellectual mode, thus making the loser into the winner since nobody can remember the winner's beautiful arguments.

 

Thaddeus is using this common technique. Too bad I don't have much of a defense against him other then educating my audience.

Edited March 12, 2006 by SheepishLord

[Li Jiong]

I just purchased a copy of this $81 book because I am proud and honored to support someone who devotes himself to cultivation.

 

Really, quite a few of you here DISGUST me. All talking about your principles but you can't cough up money to someone who translates a cultivation text!!! You should all be ashamed! If he does rip you off then a curse is on him for cheating people in terms of cultivation and at least you demonstrated in a concrete manner your committment to achievement.

 

Losers...

-Plato

 

Thank you for your support, Plato! An invitation email has been sent to you from our Internal Cultivation Group, please feel free to join in. I believe that we will have a pleasant spiritual journey together.

[SheepishLord]

An honest question, Plato, I always wondered if that kind of language says something about virtue or not?

 

Look, if a Buddha yells at you in order to save you, would you question his virtue because he yelled at you?

 

I am not saying I am a Buddha, but I am saying that it would help you if you dropped your preconceived notions about virtue.

 

Thaddeus has not grasped that supporting others on the cultivation path is a very high virtue. He boasts of his income, yet he will not shell out money that he would shell out for an average lunch to support someone who translates a Taoist text!

 

His behavior is disgusting and deep down he knows it, which is why he responded to me so. As a child, Thaddeus never learned the value of sharing with others or supporting others. Notice also that Thaddeus used a "take-away game" to "punish" me. When Thaddeus was a child, his mother used this on him, and it hurt him so bad that now as an adult he wields it to punish another who could care less about his intent to punish.

 

Does such a sleep-walking human being not deserve a foul-mouthed wake-up call?

Edited March 10, 2006 by SheepishLord

[Li Jiong]

Hello Li Jiong,

I finally had more time to read through your site. Very nice energy and clear understanding of spiritual cultivation and what it takes. You were too kind when you said Western world is about 20 years behind in understanding taoist practices. I would say the Western world is mislead about what taoist cultivation is. It became the path to gain power, not the path to bring you back with the flow of Tao. Buddha, Lao Tzu, Confucious and many others were all talking about the same principles of cultivation.

 

Thank you for your efforts.

 

Thank you for your understanding!

[thelerner]

Plato, you call someone (us? ) a loser, follow it up w/ fucking loser, and when someone goes 'yawn' to your childishness, you pull out the 'no you're a baby' routine. jeez. When people disagree w/ you, you tend to get insulting, a bit vicious and bring down the level of conversation to superiors against the commons.

 

Dropping that potato, how many pages are you actually paying for? 20? 30? a couple hundred?

 

Inquiring minds are semi interested.

 

 

On the other hand, I'm sorry that what we've written comes off as such an attack to Li. We are so innundated w/ the latest, greatest, realist and secret -stuff- that we do have red flags flashing about us constantly.

 

There is nothing better then having dedicated practioner here to give us there opinions and comments. You truly are welcome.

 

We're usually pretty well behaived. Matter of fact, fucking loser is often a humorous coloquialism for the stain on your shirt is driving me wild.

 

Yours

 

Michael

[Cameron]

I was on Li Jiong's discussion list and was interested in his translation of TTC months ago. I am excited to see him here and please don't critisize people with decades of experience on here in there first few posts. If you don't want to buy his translations don't. Everyone has a right to make a living and you have a right to decline buying it.

 

It would be nice to eventually get past all the judgements and critisizm that has been a hallmark of the Taoist online communications since it's inception. I hope to do my little part in allowing everyone the space and freedom to express themselves without my egotistical judgements of who they may or may not be.

[sean]

Plato, please edit your posts in this thread and remove all personal insults asap. I'm pretty sure you are aware of the insult policy here. We all strive to constructively criticize viewpoints without disrespecting the person and you are an adult capable of doing the same.

 

I agree that Li Jiong doesn't deserve preemptive criticism for charging for his labors, although I can see how self promotion in someone's 2nd post throws up legitimate flags.

 

Also, I'm thinking the Taoist significance of the number 81 was considered in this pricing decision, is that a correct assumption Li? Magicians are always selling things for symbolic prices not directly related to literal cost, ie: $93 tarot decks. Just my two cents.

 

Seriously though, Plato, clean up your posts and chill on the drama. I don't have time for this.

 

Sean

[Li Jiong]

Also, I'm thinking the Taoist significance of the number 81 was considered in this pricing decision, is that a correct assumption Li? Magicians are always selling things for symbolic prices not directly related to literal cost, ie: $93 tarot decks. Just my two cents.

 

Sean

 

Yes, it is an important factor, somehow, I like the number 81.

 

Thank you for your toleration and understanding!

[SheepishLord]

Plato, please edit your posts in this thread and remove all personal insults asap. I'm pretty sure you are aware of the insult policy here. We all strive to constructively criticize viewpoints without disrespecting the person and you are an adult capable of doing the same.

 

I agree that Li Jiong doesn't deserve preemptive criticism for charging for his labors, although I can see how self promotion in someone's 2nd post throws up legitimate flags.

 

Also, I'm thinking the Taoist significance of the number 81 was considered in this pricing decision, is that a correct assumption Li? Magicians are always selling things for symbolic prices not directly related to literal cost, ie: $93 tarot decks. Just my two cents.

 

Seriously though, Plato, clean up your posts and chill on the drama. I don't have time for this.

 

Sean

 

 

If it pleases you, just delete my posts. I will not be offended in the least. My disgust began when Michael Winn got us the lowest price possible on that "ball chair" and I am probably the only person who bought it. You've got tao BUMS (no money having) planting a $5 exercise ball on a potty stool and thinking theyre "getting over." Makes me sad. Just delete my stuff, but the truth of my words will never die. Samuel Wieser, the biggest publisher of spiritual books of all time, said that those in the market for spiritual books are the cheapest peeps ever. There is no money in it. Their stinginess drove Samuel Wieser out of business, and I used to go to their store in NYC. Place no longer exists. You know why Taoist books get published at all??? Because some guy with $$$ donates $50G to Thomas Clearly to do the translation. Doesn't that piss you off???

 

Delete away, but you know I am right. You guys need to support fellow Taoists with what matters in this time of ours, which is $$$. Why am I the only dude on this board who coughed up $81 for that book? Says a fucking hell of a lot, and you should all be embarrassed. Immortals cut caves by hand for 50 years, girls burned their faces off so they could cultivate without getting raped, and princes left their riches and their harem to pursue the Dao and NOBODY coughs up $81 for a translated Taoist text. You rather drop $$$ on Intu-Flow then a Taoist Text. Meanwhile Scott Sonnon can't get up in the morning without his breakfast so what can he teach you about chi or cultivation?

[allan-in-china]

If it pleases you, just delete my posts. I will not be offended in the least. My disgust began when Michael Winn got us the lowest price possible on that "ball chair" and I am probably the only person who bought it. You've got tao BUMS (no money having) planting a $5 exercise ball on a potty stool and thinking theyre "getting over." Makes me sad. Just delete my stuff, but the truth of my words will never die. Samuel Wieser, the biggest publisher of spiritual books of all time, said that those in the market for spiritual books are the cheapest peeps ever. There is no money in it. Their stinginess drove Samuel Wieser out of business, and I used to go to their store in NYC. Place no longer exists. You know why Taoist books get published at all??? Because some guy with $$$ donates $50G to Thomas Clearly to do the translation. Doesn't that piss you off???

 

Delete away, but you know I am right. You guys need to support fellow Taoists with what matters in this time of ours, which is $$$. Why am I the only dude on this board who coughed up $81 for that book? Says a fucking hell of a lot, and you should all be embarrassed. Immortals cut caves by hand for 50 years, girls burned their faces off so they could cultivate without getting raped, and princes left their riches and their harem to pursue the Dao and NOBODY coughs up $81 for a translated Taoist text. You rather drop $$$ on Intu-Flow then a Taoist Text. Meanwhile Scott Sonnon can't get up in the morning without his breakfast so what can he teach you about chi or cultivation?

 

Plato,

 

I may be wrong here, and I'm not saying that to be polite, it is because I have come to a point in my practice where I am actually starting to accept that I may be wrong. So if what I say is useless to you, sorry.

 

I'm going to do my best to write this from my heart, which is where I believe we need to come from. I'm going to comment on this and that, and hopefully we will both learn a little.

 

Ok, first, I agree with you that most people pay for things that are entirely useless, and are not willing to pay for the things that have real value. This is a fact of life, it doesn't bother me, at least not as much as it used to. In my short time on this board I've come across a few interesting realisations, and they are helping me find peace, maybe it will be the same for you.

 

This was really a surprise to me, but some people aren't interested in immortality or enlightenment. Many people just want to have a new toy to play with, here the usual new toy is qi. Just a new distraction on the path, very interesting and out of touch of the general population, but still just a new toy. This for me was a huge realisation, because I always assumed everyone was looking for what I was looking for, the dao. Some aren't. But you know the biggest realisation I had, it doesn't matter. That is so relieving to me, it means I don't have to go and educate anyone. If they want to play with qi, cool, go and play with qi. In a few years it will lose its lustre, and then they may want to find enlightenment, or maybe just a new toy, and you know what, I don't think it matters. It is so great.

 

This means I can ignore others altogether, and if anyone comes to me looking for the dao I can point them in the right direction (well I haven't completely found it yet by any means, but I'm pretty sure I'm heading in the right direction). How much of a relief is that??

 

My teacher told me, don't go out and tell anyone what they should be doing, just embody your truth yourself, be like the sun, it always shines, it is always there for everyone, and it asks nothing of them.

 

Due to my inability to keep up with my teacher, I usually finally understand what he meant by a certain thing about a year or two after he said it, but I'm doing my best.

 

Maybe this will help you. I also have found recently in myself that I have a lot of sadness inside myself, I've known this for a long time, but I finally really felt it deep down, and you know what, feeling it deep down actually transformed it into happiness naturally. (For everyone's info I wasn't doing a mind-based practice, I was doing tai chi peacefully with a still mind - well still for me anyway...)

 

I also found with this dropping of sadness, and just finding this happiness and satisfaction in myself, I didn't need to go out and tell anyone what they should be doing, I just found a bit more of myself, enough to know that everyone is right where they need to be right now. Some of us may become enlightened this lifetime, others won't, who cares?? We've all got a tonne of lives to spare, and hey, when we are ready the guys a step, or a few steps ahead of us will go, hey, I'm glad you're joining me.

 

I've also got a slight comment about merit, which could be completely incorrect because I haven't felt merit deep down inside myself enough to really understand it yet, but I don't believe merit consists in going, ok that is a good deed, I will do that, to me it consists in finding ourselves, and then acting from the love and truth inside of us.

 

If it is your truth to buy the book, then do it, if your truth is another path then do that. But I don't think doing it because you think it is a good deed is going to accumulate merit, if it isn't your truth.

 

Another comment, and you will probably want to kill me soon, please know that you have helped me in the past, and I hope you will let me help you (if I am able). I read somewhere that you are doing 3 different types of therapy, because you are finding progress too slow (probably your website). My personal experience in this is (ok I don't have therapy experience but I have meditation experience and martial arts experience, and I assume they are interchangable) you would get much better results if you just chose one, and then did it three times as much as you are doing it now. Because one will push your personality (energy/whatever) in one way, then another will push it in another, then another will push it in another, and at the end of the day the progress from one will be interfered with by the others. Just my experience, but I found when I discovered the dissatisfaction inside myself, and released a bit of it (I've still got my own fair share) then I found I didn't need instant results anymore, and the strangest thing was that no longer needing instant results, resulted in faster results than ever before.

 

Hopefully you will get something out of my crazy ramblings.

 

And yes, as my Chinese gets better, and my cultivation improves I hope to make translations, and I sure hope people do buy them, but I think people should just trust their feelings on it, not do it because they think it is a good thing to do.

 

 

 

Pietro, Freeform,

 

Pietro what you tried to do was actually very nice, and I've gotten in trouble from my teacher for trying a very similar thing, that was when he told me the sun thing above.

 

Once again this is my experience and probably completely wrong, because we all have different truths inside of us and perhaps this is your truth. The only thing I can say is we are all exactly where we need to be. I feel, as I assume you do, that Freeform is at the very beginning of stepping onto the path. (Freeform this is by no means an insult in anyway.) We are all exactly where we need to be right now, and that is beautiful.

 

In a while, when experience has pushed us in different ways we will begin to become jaded to an extent, and that is the only way (I know of) to go deeper on the path, at that time we do have to divide between real and not real, good and bad, virtuous and not virtuous. If we are lucky we will find the right way, or we will have a more experienced person help us down the right path. If we are unlucky we will go the wrong way, or have a more experienced person send us down a false path. But whichever way we go will be exactly what we need. And yes, I expect that most people will walk false paths, because I think most people aren't ready for enlightenment, even if I wish they were. I have a friend who I believe has walked very deeply down a wrong path, and to me it is obvious but to him he is sure he is walking the right way.... Am I right??

 

I'm rambling, but basically we all are where we need to be, and if we are lucky enough to find "real" teachings, then we will dissolve our problems, and grow, otherwise we won't but we will still get experience and progress exactly as we need to.

 

 

 

Li Jiong,

 

Welcome. What character is your name? It isn't in standard pinyin. I assume the li is like plum. I think you may have been received badly because you very quickly posted in a way that came across as you were just interested in making money from the worthy among the people here. My advice if it is worth anything is not to make any mention of worthy or unworthy, it isn't appreciated in western cultures. We are all subject to yuan fen or the destiny heaven gives us, and our part in it, some people may be interested but mentioning worthy or unworthy will make people wary.

 

I also think one problem is, you haven't really given people any reason to trust you. And I don't mean this in any bad way, it is just we don't know your past, or anything about you, and then you appear trying to sell us something. Maybe you could write something (here or on your website) about how you studied, if you had a teacher, etc. My impression at the moment is you had an yiquan (martial arts) teacher but you learned your meditation from a book (the real meaning of the dao de jing). Is this correct? I believe if you want people to trust you, you need to show them something of yourself first.

 

Anyways, that's just my opinion, hope it helps.

 

 

 

Guys,

 

I really hope I didn't come across as a teacher or anything, because I have no ability in that area (give me a few years maybe??), I've been lucky enough to get a bit of what I consider "real" experience, and I hope to share it, and hope it is useful for you. Wish you all the best. And if you guys think I am incorrect or off center in any of my postings, please feel free to call me on it.

 

 

 

Oh yeah (ignoring my own advice?), Freeform, please don't dismiss what Pietro wrote too lightly, because I feel there really is some value for you there if you are willing to sit with it for a while.

 

What I have found is any idea will start on the intellectual level, this is the entry point. Then it will be tested, and after some time it will either be integrated deeper into the body, or proven wrong. An example of this is something I wrote on my website about the presence of a good teacher. I had read about it (intellectual impression), I had experienced it myself (don't know how to define, maybe feeling level), but even though I had really experienced it on a number of occasions with different people, it wasn't until one day when I was practicing a stepping method that I practice for tai chi (I have had so many insights from performing this stepping method, it amazingly enough helps me forget about the outside world, and become quiet inside), that it really hit me. Wahhhh. It was like I was hit my a truck, or like massive excitement breaking out from inside of me. And then I was like, ohhhhhhh, now I get it..... It had finally sunk deeply into my body, I had really understood it (ok there may be more levels later, and I have no idea why that idea decided to process itself at that time, but hey, that's what happened)...

 

Hope that helps. Take care guys.

 

Allan

 

And I have no doubt that some of this was written because I have something inside me that is scared of people thinking I am stupid, and wants to be really smart, eventually it will be integrated too, and I will probably talk and ramble less.

[Pietro]

Pietro, Freeform,

... ... ...

 

...

Allan

 

What a nice long entry, and I am sorry I never had the time to put the mind map in a not mind map for to give it to you.

 

What you said remind me of a couple of stories from my life, and who knows, maybe by sharing them our new guest, Li, could get a live example of what I think you meant abot sharing ourself.

 

When I was 22 I was at a workshop. It was a week with a black Native American, working on emotions. At the end of the second day not much has happened respect what was awaiting us, but a lot had happened respect to my normal daily life. I was at the camping site, sitting on the ground, and slowing getting back into my center. The wife of the shaman was there. I think she was naked, with her son at her breast. A glorious sight. I don't remember exactly the words but I think she asked me how was I feeling. I said fine. I might even have asked how did I seemed from the outside. Unwise of me . She answered: you seem like someone who is very sad, and is holding it all back, while pretending to be fine. She did help me, and the depth of the tone of her voice (I still remember it now, 12 years later, will I ever meet a women that deep? And single?) was like a welcoming party to my own pain. It took me about a decade to integrate all that. And I had similar helps many other times.

 

The ability to correctly recognise and give a name to many of our emotions is often the main difference between guys in their twenties and 'guys' in their thirties. And we do help each other in the process. The hardest thing is to find ways to help each other in ways that ccan be accepted and do not make all the red flags lighten up.

 

When I was at the Tao Garden, I use to do much sitting meditation. I was high as a kite. I was also grounded as a butterfly. Many people use to tell me that I had to stand more, and practice Tai Ji to ground myself. I would dismiss their concerns with some excuses. Then I met Nick. And Nick was a businessman from NYC. The way he said "You are very high, in a sense you are the person highest around. [...] If you were only to practice a bit of Tai Ji every day you would get so much from it, in terms of grounding, that you cannot even imagine". He flattered me beyond belief, and he showed the work that was awaiting me as absolutely easy and do-able. Somehow that succeeded where everybody else failed. That same day I got through the frustrating bit of Tai Ji that were keeping me stuck, and started practicing Tai Ji often.

 

Six months later I was as high as a kite, as grounded as a butterfly, and using Tai Ji to get even higher and even more ungrounded. But that's another story.

 

So right now one of the hardest quest I am having is:

"when I can help someone, how do I find a way to do it without ignitting his ego defense mecchanism"

[thaddeus]

It is actually very typical that when someone is confronted with the ugly truth about themselves they go unconscious!

 

So I guess you are not just an asshole, but a common asshole. Yikes! Sucks to be you.

 

NOTE TO EVERYONE WHO READS THIS:

 

It is typical in politics that when someone is losing due to superior skill to see the loser of the debate resort to mockery. The reason for this is that mockery creates laughter, which switches the brains of those in the audience to mamallian mode and out of intellectual mode, thus making the loser into the winner since nobody can remember the winner's beautiful arguments.

 

Thaddeus is using this common technique. Too bad I don't have much of a defense against him other then educating my audience.

 

Thank you for calling me a loser. The Tao is about daily loss.

But seriously, you are one freaking maniac dude! Try to hold it together. A part of me wants to engage further in this at this level, but at the same time, I dunno, just don't feel like it. So whatever.

You brought up my mom. That was an interesting point about the take away stuff. I'll think about that and see if that was my intention--to punish you. I'm not so quick to agree, but I'll think about it--thanks for the insight. But back to my mom. She was a shaman. I don't recall her playing take away games with me as a child. And you're wrong about the sharing part, being a middle child, my middle name was sharing. My mom died recently. But we communicate daily. We are closer now actually.

So why I am talking about my personal life..just to show you I am a person too, you really don't know anything about me. And I have lots to share. For example, my comments about not living in a poverty consciousness. I was hoping someone would call me on it. What does that mean? It means I've tapped into the source and I know I can manifest whatever I need. I can talk at length about that with anyone who cares to hear it.

 

I didn't attack Li Jiong personally. I don't know anything about him. My comments were directed at his behavior and his comments. I'm here to discuss techniques, philosophies, points of view, opinions. I'm not here to psycho babble anyone or provide unsolicited therapy or to personally insult people.

 

Li Jiong, you say you don't want to insult me but I am not welcome to read your translation. No insult is taken. But can you please consider why you need to be such a guardian and what makes you react this way. This knowledge you are guarding is already here. You can't hold it back or give it away. This much I know.

 

So everyone, I love the tao. This we all have in common. I consider all of you my friends. I don't work with people and I don't meet people often that understand the stuff we talk about casually. So I appreciate our interactions, the good and bad because it's something rare and special to me. I hope you can see that.

T

[Cameron]

Nice post Thaddeus. I think there is plenty to learn from eachother if we all just mellow out a bit. If there is anything that needs subtraction I think it is the arrogance that ones self is always right and others are wrong. There is something about opening up to others honestly and without judging that is very powerful and I think an essential first step to reaching truth.

[sunshine]

>> And I have lots to share. For example, my comments about not living in a poverty consciousness. I was hoping someone would call me on it. What does that mean? It means I've tapped into the source and I know I can manifest whatever I need. I can talk at length about that with anyone who cares to hear it.<<

 

O.k. You got me hear/here... I have tried to get into the manifesting part but never actually find the time to do the practices, maybe because I have my doubts about the material I have... if you know a sure way I am all ears and willing to learn and apply!!!

 

By the way: I would have called you on it had it been that clear that you were referring to this...

 

>>I didn't attack Li Jiong personally. I don't know anything about him. My comments were directed at his behavior and his comments. I'm here to discuss techniques, philosophies, points of view, opinions. I'm not here to psycho babble anyone or provide unsolicited therapy or to personally insult people.<<

 

In this case you said to Plato "you really don't know anything about me".

 

Why do you think you can already judge Li Jiongs behavior? My point about him not being a native speaker included many meanings: he does not have to know what others like you or me consider to be proper behavior or comments... his "phrasing" might raise Red flags in us, which to him might not have any negative connotation at all... why then judge them?

 

You might ask why I seem to try to defend him... thing is. From the interactions I so far had with him he is a great & kind soul. I might have my obstacles regarding pricing, too, I might have problems with some of his wordings... but I understand that he is from a different background and, to me, has no nasty, evil, negative intents at all... language is a difficult thing to judge... regarding pricing: I still think he can charge for a translation as much as he wishes... I either decide to buy or I do not... currently I do not get the 9 chapters as I do not have the money raised for it yet... but later.. would I wish it to be more at my reach... sure I would. To a certain extent I believe he is approaching the subject similar to you (you from the point of your manifestation abilities)...: those who are able and willing to manifest a way to pay for the book are at the right time and place to do so... Plato would probably speak about one having attained enlightenment quality and in Li Jiong's words it might be the term "worthy"...

 

where is the problem?

 

Harry

PS: how was it to be raised by a mother who was/is a Shaman, if you don't mind to share?

Edited March 11, 2006 by sunshine