Real Meaning of Dao De Jing

[thaddeus]

<Lots of points>

 

Hi Harry,

I'll play the part of the monk who carried the pretty girl across the stream and just drop this. There's alot more cool stuff to talk about.

Thanks for asking about my mom...in a nutshell, she scared the crap out of me by some of the stuff I personally witnessed. Until I got to grow older and see it all differently. Sorry to be obtuse, but it's a complicated subject and one more for the give and take of a conversation over a beer.

Manifesting..we should start a new thread. When you say you haven't had the time to 'do' the practices that gives me a clue as to what is going on. I find manifesting to be very taoist. You are already 'doing it'. Can you tell me what your sources of information are on this topic? I think the clearest one I found was from the abraham-hicks material, but I've been exposed to alot of different ideas and approaches. But basically, you are already manifesting your intentions. So there is nothing to 'do'. You only need to become aware of what it is you are intending. Then the next step is to reduce the resistance. So manifesting is really about doing less, not more. It's about getting rid of the resistance to having what you intend come into your life.

The best thing to do is to test this out first. Then you'll know how it works..

Intend something, drop all desire to force or coerce the 'how', and watch what happens. You can use your emotions to guage how you are doing. When you feel good about your intention, trust that things are coming. If you feel bad, then you have to find the resistance. If you want, we can have some give and take to perhaps find out what that resistance is.

Make sense?

T

[Cameron]

It hasn't rained in Phx for like 8 months. I didn't really give a shit but everyone was saying how it sucked we werent getting rain. Last night I sent out the intention for it to rain and it rained all night long into the morning like I have never seen here.

 

Maybe I am really powerful or someone upstairs heard my wish or I was just lucky. Pretty cool if i had something to do with it

[thaddeus]

It hasn't rained in Phx for like 8 months. I didn't really give a shit but everyone was saying how it sucked we werent getting rain. Last night I sent out the intention for it to rain and it rained all night long into the morning like I have never seen here.

 

Maybe I am really powerful or someone upstairs heard my wish or I was just lucky. Pretty cool if i had something to do with it

 

I think that is what is really behind the traditions of rain dancing. Of course it has nothing at all to do with the dance choreography. It's the intention behind the actions. Very cool.

T

[Li Jiong]

Li Jiong,

 

Welcome. What character is your name? It isn't in standard pinyin. I assume the li is like plum. I think you may have been received badly because you very quickly posted in a way that came across as you were just interested in making money from the worthy among the people here. My advice if it is worth anything is not to make any mention of worthy or unworthy, it isn't appreciated in western cultures. We are all subject to yuan fen or the destiny heaven gives us, and our part in it, some people may be interested but mentioning worthy or unworthy will make people wary.

 

I also think one problem is, you haven't really given people any reason to trust you. And I don't mean this in any bad way, it is just we don't know your past, or anything about you, and then you appear trying to sell us something. Maybe you could write something (here or on your website) about how you studied, if you had a teacher, etc. My impression at the moment is you had an yiquan (martial arts) teacher but you learned your meditation from a book (the real meaning of the dao de jing). Is this correct? I believe if you want people to trust you, you need to show them something of yourself first.

 

Anyways, that's just my opinion, hope it helps.

 

Thank you for your kind advice, Allan. It is my mistake to talk about 'worthy' and 'unworthy' in public. Common people are accustomed to the feeling of thinking everyone or everything is equivalent, when someone tells them the truth, they will feel that they are offended. Anyway, it's my mistake; I apologize for those who think they were offended by my words.

 

As for my past, it involves some teachers and friends; unfortunately, they would not like to be showed in public. Furthermore, I don't think this information is very important for our practice. For example, when Huang Yuanji appeared to promote the Dao, it seems no one knew where he came from, and where he learnt from; after he published the book 'Real Meaning of Dao De Jing', he disappeared from the public completely, and it seems no one knows where he goes. But it seems this absence of his personal information did not reduce people's trustiness to his level and virtue. But in the west, perhaps things are different. I will observe the result for some time.

[Li Jiong]

What a nice long entry, and I am sorry I never had the time to put the mind map in a not mind map for to give it to you.

 

What you said remind me of a couple of stories from my life, and who knows, maybe by sharing them our new guest, Li, could get a live example of what I think you meant abot sharing ourself.

 

When I was 22 I was at a workshop. It was a week with a black Native American, working on emotions. At the end of the second day not much has happened respect what was awaiting us, but a lot had happened respect to my normal daily life. I was at the camping site, sitting on the ground, and slowing getting back into my center. The wife of the shaman was there. I think she was naked, with her son at her breast. A glorious sight. I don't remember exactly the words but I think she asked me how was I feeling. I said fine. I might even have asked how did I seemed from the outside. Unwise of me . She answered: you seem like someone who is very sad, and is holding it all back, while pretending to be fine. She did help me, and the depth of the tone of her voice (I still remember it now, 12 years later, will I ever meet a women that deep? And single?) was like a welcoming party to my own pain. It took me about a decade to integrate all that. And I had similar helps many other times.

 

The ability to correctly recognise and give a name to many of our emotions is often the main difference between guys in their twenties and 'guys' in their thirties. And we do help each other in the process. The hardest thing is to find ways to help each other in ways that ccan be accepted and do not make all the red flags lighten up.

 

When I was at the Tao Garden, I use to do much sitting meditation. I was high as a kite. I was also grounded as a butterfly. Many people use to tell me that I had to stand more, and practice Tai Ji to ground myself. I would dismiss their concerns with some excuses. Then I met Nick. And Nick was a businessman from NYC. The way he said "You are very high, in a sense you are the person highest around. [...] If you were only to practice a bit of Tai Ji every day you would get so much from it, in terms of grounding, that you cannot even imagine". He flattered me beyond belief, and he showed the work that was awaiting me as absolutely easy and do-able. Somehow that succeeded where everybody else failed. That same day I got through the frustrating bit of Tai Ji that were keeping me stuck, and started practicing Tai Ji often.

 

Six months later I was as high as a kite, as grounded as a butterfly, and using Tai Ji to get even higher and even more ungrounded. But that's another story.

 

So right now one of the hardest quest I am having is:

"when I can help someone, how do I find a way to do it without ignitting his ego defense mecchanism"

 

Thank you for your kindness, Pietro, I understand your meaning.

 

The Daoist thoughtway of helping people may be a bit different with common religions. For example, the Buddhists think drawing all people in their school is saving people universally, whatever these people are yet ready or not ready. To achieve this purpose, sometime, they do not hesitate to cheat people just in order to do not ignite people's ego defense emotion. Of course, I do not say this way is bad or evil. I just want to say the Daoist way is a bit different. A real Daoist school takes a student in only when the student is ready. To the one who is yet not ready, Daoists think the best way to help him is letting him take his own course, don't try to help him artificially.

[Lozen]

This thread is bringing up a lot of issues... First of all, the idea that there are "worthy" and "unworthy" people. I suppose I do believe everyone is worthy or has the potential to be worthy, uh, since we all have souls and all that. My hackles go up when I hear people talk about "common" people and the elite, it reminds me of the Nietzchian super-man theory, you know, that special elite people don't have to follow the (ethical) laws that the common people follow. I think it's a slippery slope, because what you often end up with is a lot of people deciding they are the elite ones who can break all the rules, and anybody who they offend is just not ready for the truth.

 

In my experience, those who have mastered something often share it freely, and if somebody disagrees with them, they don't tell the person they are unwelcome or unready for "the real truth"--how can this reaction NOT be ego?

 

And lastly, just wanted to point out that some of the greatest teachers, leaders, mystics and masters of all times have been dirt poor. The idea that people who do not have money are somehow unworthy or that this is an indication of their spiritual purity (or whatever) strikes me as odd. The idea that people need to be kept out of the inner circles and that money is the way to do it... I don't know. I have seen this before in the martial arts, people charging like $350 for a one hour private session to weed out the weirdos. My guess is that they don't weed out all the weirdos (there are rich weirdos) and that they do weed out a lot of worthy people who aren't as adept at manifesting money (or maybe they are single moms with kids! or something)

 

Guess that's all for now.

 

Thaddeus--thank you for your words. Beautifully written... And I know I probably wouldn't have reacted as eloquently to unsolicited psychoanalysis by nonprofessionals... Anyways. I'm sorry to hear about your mom dying...may you find strength in your memories.

 

P.S. As far as worthy/unworthy... I do not think all people are equal. I definitely think some people hear and answer the call... The whole many are called but few are chosen thing. I'm just not convinced we can tell what's really going on in other people's minds and hearts, or that I can judge whether someone else is worthy or unworthy, or what they're going through, etc... More later when I'm less tired.

Edited March 12, 2006 by Lozen

[Cameron]

Yeal your right and you really don't need any of it. Truth be told everything is available this very moment. The opportunity to get enlightened(or whatever terminology your using) needs no special teaching or secret translations.

 

I like Adyashanti's view that a true spiritual teachers goal is to put himself out of business as fast possible. To have the student rise to the same level of consciousness as the teacher(or higher) as fast as possible without holding anything back.

 

Many Zen masters would burn up all there so called sacred books and teachings upon enlightenment. You cannot bottle the truth!

 

That said I'll probably buy Li's translation before too long(I have purchased his books before) since I am a big fan of TTC.

 

To your natural innate virtue which is niether created or destroyed,

 

Cameron

[Lozen]

Cam you have to spell my name right.

 

I never understood the you have everything you need right in this moment thing.

 

I think everything is about training, is it not?

 

When the student is ready, the teacher appears.

 

I just don't know if this translates well to trying to sell books, courses, etc. through advertising, whether in magazines or on the internet, and assuming that the teacher isn't appearing to students who can't afford it because they aren't ready/are unworthy/are scum of the earth/etc.

 

Since I do believe in Good and evil I suppose I would say that there are already forces trying to stop people from getting to where they are supposed to be, why ADD to this unnecessarily?

 

Okay, I'm done. I have to do my 30 min zazen before I turn into a pumpkin.

[Cameron]

IMO yes, you have do training. But the training(IMO) is mostly a process of the body and mind unlearning.

 

Not unlike what Scott Sonnon talks about. Just like Ken said in that interview you did with him you can get the clarity through the body or through the mind or vice versa.

 

But what I am getting at is the real fruits(IMO) are available right now but it is too difficult to see it. Adyashanti says he had to do zazen for 15 years only to realize he never had to do zazen at all.

 

But at the end of the day we each have to go through whatever we have to go through..our unique paths that lead wherever.

Edited March 12, 2006 by Cameron

[Pietro]

The Daoist thoughtway of helping people may be a bit different with common religions. For example, the Buddhists think drawing all people in their school is saving people universally, whatever these people are yet ready or not ready. To achieve this purpose, sometime, they do not hesitate to cheat people just in order to do not ignite people's ego defense emotion. Of course, I do not say this way is bad or evil. I just want to say the Daoist way is a bit different. A real Daoist school takes a student in only when the student is ready. To the one who is yet not ready, Daoists think the best way to help him is letting him take his own course, don't try to help him artificially.

 

 

Thanks. I stand corrected.

[Pietro]

Thank you for your kind advice, Allan. It is my mistake to talk about 'worthy' and 'unworthy' in public. Common people are accustomed to the feeling of thinking everyone or everything is equivalent, when someone tells them the truth, they will feel that they are offended. Anyway, it's my mistake; I apologize for those who think they were offended by my words.

 

LOL This is brilliant! Please keep on!

 

You are quite an amazing guy Li. In some ways more naive than a kid and in some ways way more patient than an adult. In any case, for your info, some people tend to translate "the superior man" as "the superior in the man". A translations that sounds to me quite fake and too politically correct, but maybe it invites people to try to act from their higher part. I tend to have an interest in Taoism that also covers its historical meaning, so somthing that works (IF it does) but is historically unaccurate leaves me unhappy.

[allan-in-china]

I'd like to clarify myself a little here. I thought quite a bit of that may be misinterpreted...

 

Thaddeus I wasn't saying you are not interested in the dao, I was just saying some people aren't, and that's ok. Or it is also possibly a case of some people are deep down interested in the dao, but because of beliefs and other issues, just end up doing things that only succeed in taking them down other paths. They go down the other paths, because that is what they need to do to clean those issues up, then they come back, and possibly walk towards the dao or clean up other areas.

 

I also don't really believe in worthy or unworthy, but hearing it doesn't bother me. I am more a believer in ready or not ready, or suitable or not suitable for a certain path. I am a believer that we will all eventually become enlightened, however many lifetimes that may take, and there are as many different paths as there are people in the world. We all find our paths.

 

My personal belief is it is easier to choose one path and stick with it, as I believe this is more likely to result in success (more efficiently) than stopping part way along and then jumping to another path, but doing this is just (I believe) another case of personal beliefs or issues getting in the way of success, and so slowing us down.

 

Pietro generally Taoists consider it is just best to keep quiet, and let others realise themselves when they are ready, unless they ask you for help, and by living your truth people will begin to ask for your help.

 

Allan

Edited March 12, 2006 by allan-in-china

[Li Jiong]

LOL This is brilliant! Please keep on!

 

You are quite an amazing guy Li. In some ways more naive than a kid and in some ways way more patient than an adult. In any case, for your info, some people tend to translate "the superior man" as "the superior in the man". A translations that sounds to me quite fake and too politically correct, but maybe it invites people to try to act from their higher part. I tend to have an interest in Taoism that also covers its historical meaning, so somthing that works (IF it does) but is historically unaccurate leaves me unhappy.

 

Thanks for the encouragement! I absolutely agree with your view. God is just God, Buddha is just Buddha, Immortal is just Immortal. I will not translate them as 'a enlightened person' to fawn on the polity.

[Pietro]

Pietro generally Taoists consider it is just best to keep quiet, and let others realise themselves when they are ready, unless they ask you for help, and by living your truth people will begin to ask for your help.

 

Yes, generally.

 

Do you remember the line from Terry Pratchett, with the archmage was facing a very aggressive man; and the man was saying: "because I know you are not allowed to do any magic on me"?

The mage transformed him into a frog, while saying: " I always took them as guidelines".

 

Well, Allan, I knew what you said, but I also know that I always took those rules as guidelines. Maybe the one thing that makes me feel a Taoist more than anything else is the necessity to discover within myself what it is my morality. I wrote about it extensively before, but I am always happy to repeat myself on this, if anybody wishes me so. To try to correct a person, without lying or with no tricks, after you have developped a relationship of mutual trust with that person I feel is natural. It surely comes natural to me. It is part of those basic behaviours that we call being human, and mutually helping each other. There are ways to do it. And limits that should not be surpassed. Plato reaches the point of swearing to you if he feels you are in danger. That's hardly my way. He might feel ok in doing it. I wouldn't, so I don't act in that way. I feel better in throwing seeds of doubts. Some people might not like that. Amen. I only say to Freeform, "are you sure about that?". And I am ready to repeat it. So it is also true for me, as for Taoists. I generally don't do proselitism. But every now and then I might throw a seed of doubt here and there.

Edited March 12, 2006 by Pietro

[Li Jiong]

To be more peaceful, I will just use the words 'ready' and 'unready' in the future.

Here, I would explode another lie. Many think "everyone is ready or has the potential to be ready since we all have souls". Generally, souls are in the transmigration endlessly, on this meaning, it seems every soul will be ready finally even if it is 1000000000000000 years later. But according to the Daoist views, there are some exceptions: 1. some extremely evil souls will be completely destroyed by God, they do not have the chance to enter into the transmigration any more; 2. some people have a extremely serious view of "everything is equivalent", little by little, they will lose all the interest to do anything, and finally enter into the dead emptiness, these souls also do not have the chance to enter into the transmigration any more. But they are killed by themselves. If these two exceptions truly exist, we have to say it is NOT "everyone is ready or has the potential to be ready".

[Lozen]

I forgot to post this yesterday, but I don't think that Buddhism is about cheating people to bring them to your school, in fact most Buddhists I know will spill a cup of water to distract you rather than having to choose between telling a white lie or hurting your feelings.

 

As far as "ready" or "unready"--this is still too vague for me. There is more than one path!

 

As far as evil soils that will be destroyed by God-- who are we to decide which those souls are? Even if you are very smart, are you smart enough to know the mind of God? I have seen people change completely in THIS lifetime. I think the appropriate response to souls that act in evil ways is, after fighting back and holding your ground if you are in danger, to pray for that person, instead of saying they are evil or unready. Second, yes maybe some people will lose interest because they believe people are equal. Or they could have a change of heart.

 

I think a bigger danger is people who ARE ready being so turned off by the arrogance of teachers that they run the other way.

 

In any case, it is STILL A CHOICE, everyone has a choice to turn to the Light no matter who they are, everyone still has that part of their soul that God has given them, that little inkling of light, the choice to change.

 

I am far more concerned with the danger of thinking one is in the special elite and that anybody who doesn't automatically want to study with them or change religions or whatEVER is somehow unworthy or unready. As if there is only one path!!!!!!!

[freeform]

.

Edited October 23, 2019 by freeform

[SheepishLord]

Sean,

 

I have modified my posts to remove insults and bad energy.

 

Allan,

 

I would never argue with you. Maybe because I know you in person? I understand your concern about stacking modalities, and there are risks. Time is running out for me, however, so I do what I have to do. (Note: this is NOT some sort of fatalistic or suicidal reference so no need to be concerned.)

 

Everyone else,

 

I am glad that I have been able to shock the collective and create a massive thread with meaningful discussion. I know maybe even better then anyone what it means to be totally overloaded. This makes one armoured and jaded when someone comes along who is trying the best he can to sell that which is un-sellable, which is cultivation. I can assure you that Li and Bill use the marketing language you guys hate only out of desperation because it is their only hope to get the stuff out there.

 

I suspect (and I may be wrong) that Sean is suffering from overload as well. Generally speaking, to be sensitive means that you can feel the karma of all these people yapping away in cyberspace. The connections are there and to train correctly (if I may use words such as "correctly") is to open oneself to these forces.

 

When I was talking with Nan Huai-Chin one night he confirmed something for me that I had long suspected, and that is that nobody really knows what to do about all the endless karma that arises from incorrect AND correct action. For example, I insult Thaddeus and it may have had the result of creating a warm discussion, but it ruins my weekend because I am aware of the energy I have created that now looks for resolution. It doesn't matter if I don't care or remain unnattached, the karma is there and it will be eaten by someone!

 

To be open forces one to be responsible because to be irresponsible hurts. Unfortunately, being responsible hurts as well. This is the horror of the Bodhissatvhae (and I am not saying I am one so don't beat on me) and the reason Nan Huai-Chin once wrote something akin to "if I told the truth about what the path involves my doorway would be surrounded in tall grasses because nobody would come by."

 

Forgive me if I am mis-quoting...

[Lozen]

This is a joke, right? You think that our meaningful discussion happened BECAUSE of and not DESPITE your insults?

[SheepishLord]

This is a joke, right? You think that our meaningful discussion happened BECAUSE of and not DESPITE your insults?

 

No joke. The meaningful discussion was BECAUSE. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

[Lozen]

I don't hate anyone, I just think that you are writing from delusion.

[Li Jiong]

As far as "ready" or "unready"--this is still too vague for me. There is more than one path!

 

Indeed! There are too many ways, but unfortunately, the right way is only one. The languages that Jesus, Sakyamuni and Lao Zi use are different, but the essential way they point is the same.

 

As far as evil soils that will be destroyed by God-- who are we to decide which those souls are? Even if you are very smart, are you smart enough to know the mind of God? I have seen people change completely in THIS lifetime. I think the appropriate response to souls that act in evil ways is, after fighting back and holding your ground if you are in danger, to pray for that person, instead of saying they are evil or unready. Second, yes maybe some people will lose interest because they believe people are equal. Or they could have a change of heart.

 

That's God's business; I do believe God has the will and the ability to do so. I just do what I feel natural. I would be willing to bear any results caused by my actions, words and thoughts.

[Li Jiong]

I am far more concerned with the danger of thinking one is in the special elite and that anybody who doesn't automatically want to study with them or change religions or whatEVER is somehow unworthy or unready. As if there is only one path!!!!!!!

 

We call all non-cultivators "common people", it is not a derogatory term. It is also nothing to do with the concept 'elite' that you may have. Whatever you are a nobleman, a famous scholar, or a president, so long as you are not walking on the right way of cultivation yet, you are still common.

 

Li Jiong, I'd like to find out further about your ideas on what a spiritual path is. How would you know that one path is different from another? How do you know if someone's path is leading him/her to actual spiritual progress? If someone tells you that you're heading down a wrong/incorrect/dead-end path how would you know whether they're right or wrong? This really interests me - it's your choice whether to answer them or not.

 

I just do what I feel natural, and I believe my intuition. It's my karma. You can believe me or not, it's your choice, and it's your karma.

[Li Jiong]

Sean,

 

I have modified my posts to remove insults and bad energy.

 

Allan,

 

I would never argue with you. Maybe because I know you in person? I understand your concern about stacking modalities, and there are risks. Time is running out for me, however, so I do what I have to do. (Note: this is NOT some sort of fatalistic or suicidal reference so no need to be concerned.)

 

Everyone else,

 

I am glad that I have been able to shock the collective and create a massive thread with meaningful discussion. I know maybe even better then anyone what it means to be totally overloaded. This makes one armoured and jaded when someone comes along who is trying the best he can to sell that which is un-sellable, which is cultivation. I can assure you that Li and Bill use the marketing language you guys hate only out of desperation because it is their only hope to get the stuff out there.

 

I suspect (and I may be wrong) that Sean is suffering from overload as well. Generally speaking, to be sensitive means that you can feel the karma of all these people yapping away in cyberspace. The connections are there and to train correctly (if I may use words such as "correctly") is to open oneself to these forces.

 

When I was talking with Nan Huai-Chin one night he confirmed something for me that I had long suspected, and that is that nobody really knows what to do about all the endless karma that arises from incorrect AND correct action. For example, I insult Thaddeus and it may have had the result of creating a warm discussion, but it ruins my weekend because I am aware of the energy I have created that now looks for resolution. It doesn't matter if I don't care or remain unnattached, the karma is there and it will be eaten by someone!

 

To be open forces one to be responsible because to be irresponsible hurts. Unfortunately, being responsible hurts as well. This is the horror of the Bodhissatvhae (and I am not saying I am one so don't beat on me) and the reason Nan Huai-Chin once wrote something akin to "if I told the truth about what the path involves my doorway would be surrounded in tall grasses because nobody would come by."

 

Forgive me if I am mis-quoting...

 

Thanks, Plato!

 

Now I know you really know something deeply. You ordered the translation, it is not only for supporting a cultivator, but also because you realize the true value that the book has. I am so glad to realize this!

[SheepishLord]

Thanks, Plato!

 

Now I know you really know something deeply. You ordered the translation, it is not only for supporting a cultivator, but also because you realize the true value that the book has. I am so glad to realize this!

 

 

==