Real Meaning of Dao De Jing

[Emelgee]

I think SheepishLord embodies the ego of people who seek enlightenment and see it as some competition to be the most enlightened. I find it tiresome and irksome that the path to "enlightment" seems occasionally to be covered in swear words and insults that do not help anyone.

 

Whilst on some level I understand his attempt at stimulating confronting conversation, his attempts very much suffer due to a very serious lack of execution.

 

However, moving right along...

 

In reply to Li Jong's original post, I had been considering my earlier post and had been wondering about what part of me had felt it necessary to speak such words...even if viewed in jest by other people. I apologise to Li Jong for the small mindedness I displayed and any attempt to make him feel "bad" for trying to sell/share his ideas.

[Lozen]

What I see in the enlightened teachers and beings and such is a desire to help change the world, and to really help others, out of compassion, asking for nothing in return...

 

I see this as very different from trying to decide who is worthy or unworthy, common or uncommon, based on their desire and ability (or lack of desire and/or ability) to buy a translation.

[Li Jiong]

In reply to Li Jong's original post, I had been considering my earlier post and had been wondering about what part of me had felt it necessary to speak such words...even if viewed in jest by other people. I apologise to Li Jong for the small mindedness I displayed and any attempt to make him feel "bad" for trying to sell/share his ideas.

 

I can feel your sincerity, please never mind what you said to me.

 

My English is still not good enough, but I can feel clearly that who are kind, who are just having some temporary misunderstanding, and who are unkind whatever how they disguise their wording. But it doesn't matter. Everyone has his/her own karma, and has to bear the results caused by oneself. No one can really help you except yourself!

[Ian]

I can feel your sincerity, please never mind what you said to me.

 

My English is still not good enough, but I can feel clearly that who are kind, who are just having some temporary misunderstanding, and who are unkind whatever how they disguise their wording. But it doesn't matter. Everyone has his/her own karma, and has to bear the results caused by oneself. No one can really help you except yourself!

 

Indeed. I am the problem. Other people are not the problem. Other people's ideas and beliefs are not the problem. Other people's ways of expressing themselves are not the problem. Other people's cultivation techniques are not the problem. Other people's teachings are not the problem. Other people's incomes are not the problem.

 

My issues are not the problem. My parents are not the problem. My circumstances are not the problem. My problems are not the problem.

 

I am the problem. (Louder!!!)

 

I AM THE PROBLEM!!

 

(does little dance and heads for the washing up)

 

Happy monday to one and all

[Emelgee]

What I see in the enlightened teachers and beings and such is a desire to help change the world, and to really help others, out of compassion, asking for nothing in return...

 

I see this as very different from trying to decide who is worthy or unworthy, common or uncommon, based on their desire and ability (or lack of desire and/or ability) to buy a translation.

 

 

I completely understand your point Lozen but perhaps this whole discussion has been borne more from Li Jong's lack of practice with the English language then any real intent on his/her part to create differentiation between people...

 

Anyway, I remembered something from the Osho Zen Tarot for the card titled "The Fool" which is that the Fool will continue to trust people even when sometimes those people haven't the best interests for him as it is better for the Fool to have a trusting heart than a suspicious one.

 

In terms of Li Jong's original post I would prefer to have a trusting heart. It seems when I let my heart be trusting, that a lot of the words and any offence that may be taken on an intellectual level (which I think a lot of this discussion is being held at) to those words, don't seem to carry the same weight anymore.

 

[Li Jiong]

What I see in the enlightened teachers and beings and such is a desire to help change the world, and to really help others, out of compassion, asking for nothing in return...

 

I see this as very different from trying to decide who is worthy or unworthy, common or uncommon, based on their desire and ability (or lack of desire and/or ability) to buy a translation.

 

Sorry, I am not an enlightened teacher, and yet I do not have any personal student. I am just a professional cultivator, and now I am selling a translation just in order to maintain my cultivation. Please don't place too much hope on me, I will be scared.

 

I do not want to judge who is worthy and who is unworthy. I just hope those unready ones don't order my translation, because that will waste their time and money.

[Pietro]

I am the problem.

Other people are not the problem.

Other people's ideas and beliefs are not the problem.

Other people's ways of expressing themselves are not the problem.

Other people's cultivation techniques are not the problem.

Other people's teachings are not the problem.

Other people's incomes are not the problem.

 

My issues are not the problem.

My parents are not the problem.

My circumstances are not the problem.

My problems are not the problem.

I am the problem. (Louder!!!)

I AM THE PROBLEM!!

(does little dance and heads for the washing up)

 

You know, Ian, you make me a bit worried.

Are you sure that ball chair you just bought is really having a positive effect.

Maybe THATS's the problem

[Ian]

You know, Ian, you make me a bit worried.

Are you sure that ball chair you just bought is really having a positive effect.

Maybe THATS's the problem

 

My dear old thing,

 

You make you a bit worried, that's my whole point.

 

But seriously, I'm good, the chair is good, be not alarmed.

 

I was just feeling very exuberant, for a monday morning.

[Lozen]

Sorry, I am not an enlightened teacher, and yet I do not have any personal student. I am just a professional cultivator, and now I am selling a translation just in order to maintain my cultivation. Please don't place too much hope on me, I will be scared.

 

I do not want to judge who is worthy and who is unworthy. I just hope those unready ones don't order my translation, because that will waste their time and money.

 

Fair enough!!

 

Have a good day!

 

Love and blessings,

Yael

 

P.S. Ian is not the problem.

[Trunk]

Indeed. I am the problem. Other people are not the problem. Other people's ideas and beliefs are not the problem. Other people's ways of expressing themselves are not the problem. Other people's cultivation techniques are not the problem. Other people's teachings are not the problem. Other people's incomes are not the problem.

 

My issues are not the problem. My parents are not the problem. My circumstances are not the problem. My problems are not the problem.

 

I am the problem. (Louder!!!)

 

I AM THE PROBLEM!!

 

(does little dance and heads for the washing up)

 

Happy monday to one and all

Beeayoutiful~!

 

Let the lover be disgraceful, crazy,

absentminded. Someone sober

will worry about events going badly.

Let the lover be.

- Rumi

I thought I had self-control,

so I regretted times I didn't.

 

With that considering over, the one thing I know

is I don't know who I am.

- Rumi

Edited March 14, 2006 by Trunk

[mbanu]

You might try at the healingtao forums. Huang Yuanji is a respectable name after all.

[Li Jiong]

You might try at the healingtao forums. Huang Yuanji is a respectable name after all.

 

Thanks.

However, now I realize that Plato is right, this is something unsellable. It is my mistake that I try to sell something unsellable. Therefore, at least, I will not try to advertise it any more.

[Li Jiong]

[thelerner]

Thank you Li Jiong. It is very gracious of you to share it with us. I know that much work and heart has gone into it.

 

Michael

 

 

Because there is so much meaning in each sentence, I wish it were broken down into smaller paragraphs with space between them.

[Li Jiong]

Thank you Li Jiong. It is very gracious of you to share it with us. I know that much work and heart has gone into it.

 

Michael

Because there is so much meaning in each sentence, I wish it were broken down into smaller paragraphs with space between them.

 

Thank you for you praise thelerner. But actually, I just want to promote my business, I am afraid that has nothing to do with 'gracious'.

[Wayfarer64]

Dear Mr. Li Jiong,

 

I also have written a book, called the Wayfarer Sonnets. A book of poetry relating to the 64 hexagrams of the Yi Jing. -

 

http://www.lulu.com/pdgart

 

Please read the preview & reviews. I hope that you at least may enjoy the few poems there.

 

As far as I can tell no one from the Tao Bums site has down-loaded or bought a copy. I guess this is a very tough crowd to sell a book to! Still, apparently they read quite a bit, so it may just be that we presume on them with our insights. They each have their own insights to dwell on as it is.

 

In any case I wrote my book as an artistic expression that seemed to just flow through me onto the pages, and I added/subtracted little in the way of editing. So My job is done. I let it flow through me and put it out there to read. I too can not offord to just give the work away, even though I would like to do so...But I am not extremely concerned if it sells many copies. I believe those who will get it - will get it, as it were...

 

So good luck with your book and maybe one day we can share more experiences of our literary efforts...

Edited November 20, 2006 by Wayfarer64

[Li Jiong]

Dear Mr. Li Jiong,

 

I also have written a book, called the Wayfarer Sonnets. A book of poetry relating to the 64 hexagrams of the Yi Jing. -

 

http://www.lulu.com/pdgart

 

Please read the preview & reviews. I hope that you at least may enjoy the few poems there.

 

As far as I can tell no one from the Tao Bums site has down-loaded or bought a copy. I guess this is a very tough crowd to sell a book to! Still, apparently they read quite a bit, so it may just be that we presume on them with our insights. They each have their own insights to dwell on as it is.

 

In any case I wrote my book as an artistic expression that seemed to just flow through me onto the pages, and I added/subtracted little in the way of editing. So My job is done. I let it flow through me and put it out there to read. I too can not offord to just give the work away, even though I would like to do so...But I am not extremely concerned if it sells many copies. I believe those who will get it - will get it, as it were...

 

So good luck with your book and maybe one day we can share more experiences of our literary efforts...

 

Thank you for your kindness, Wayfarer.

Daoist culture is yet not popular in the world, and often, it is very hard to sell something really helpful for one's life. But I still love to do so. Actually, I got a lot of payment beyond money.

Good luck with your book too.

[Wayfarer64]

Dear Li Jiong,

 

I too have been gratified with how many new friends have been made through the offering of my book.

 

Most of the warmth and support that I have found has been through the public readings that I have done at libraries and literary groups. I have also found a very warm welcome at The Golden Lantern website and believe that you may also find a more supportive response there. The editor there, Paul Dolinsky - has even entered a very nice review of my book on the lulu site - where my poetry is for sale on line.

 

I guess it seems odd to many on this site that you ask a rather high price for your work. I for one could not spare such monies at this time, but I am surprised at the rancor that the offering has incured!

 

It seems that many of the seekers here are interested in Taoism for what it can bring to them, powers and longevity and mastery of their potentials. Many seem to develope Qi as if it were a commodity to hoard and not a tool enabling them to serve others as a conscious part of the Tao's oneness... That your work has been offered as a commodity may offend some of these same people...

 

I can't say or presume to know what is in anyone else's heart /mind. But introspection to rid myself of selfishness has helped me balance the impact of developing my Qi to gain a sense of my inner strength. Finding one's balance is key to such profound inner developments.

 

Humility tenders an ability to teach, far more than hubris can. For me this is the real power in realizing our actual part to play in the Tao. Our ability to shed the self and develop our more eternal/spiritual /inner being's impact out through our human experience is not often easy, nor well accepted by others.

 

I did glean a very good feeling from what you have offered on this thread, and also wish you luck with your book.

[Li Jiong]

Thanks for the information, Wayfarer.

 

I also feel puzzled why my offering incurred so many rancors. Normally, if one thinks something is too expensive, he can do not buy it, no one will force him to buy, and he loses nothing, why do some people hate something just because it is expensive?

 

Someone said, "the enlightened teachers and beings and such is a desire to help change the world, and to really help others, out of compassion, asking for nothing in return", but actually, nothing is really free. I would not like to act as a savior. I offer my knowledge and service, and the customers pay me money, we are equal and that's all. I think this is real humility, instead of acting as a savior with humble words. For the ones who claim that they charge nothing, I always stay at a respectful distance from them, I am afraid that the price is my soul for a free lunch.

 

My purpose is immortality, others are all the instruments to serve for this purpose. Everyone should save self by oneself, don't expect a savior.

Edited November 21, 2006 by Li Jiong

[freeform]

Thanks for the information, Wayfarer.

 

I also feel puzzled why my offering incurred so many rancors. Normally, if one thinks something is too expensive, he can do not buy it, no one will force him to buy, and he loses nothing, why do some people hate something just because it is expensive?

 

Say you had a book to sell that you thought would benefit any martial artist... and one day you notice that a local martial arts school is allowing outsiders to come in, have a look, and maybe sign up for calsses...

 

So you go in and you check out the building - it's very beautiful and ornate - painted in beautiful colours with exquisite sculptures all over the place, there is an energy about it, like it's been there a long time. As well as a huge courtyard to practice in there are many rooms with books and charts and medicines and herbs. Immediately you know that this is the perfect place to have your book on their shelves...

 

So you go and talk to the students, then the masters - they're all very proud of their place, their school and their way of life - they're all very knowledgeable and devoted to their art - When talking to the Grand Master of the school you suddenly bring out a book - you explain that this is your book that you have spent years in perfecting it and that it will change the practice of the martial arts school for the better... For no apparent reason the Grand Master widens his eyes, gets up and looks thoroughly offended - with his booming voice he says: "we have been here for centuries, we have a whole library of books and hundreds of years of oral traditions - now we invite you to our school, to have a look, and maybe if you're lucky become a student and you're trying to sell us something that's better than all this?"

 

Even though you know that the book would benefit them in some way, you decide that the school is too proud to receive any new knowledge. Disheartened you go back home... on the way you meet the local wiseman and tell him the full story... he listens thoroughly and then contemplates the story in deep thought. Eventually he asks you - "Did you read all their books before trying to sell yours?"

 

The Tao can be represented in limitless ways - what makes your way of representing it any better than someone elses? the price? your dedication? your unique view point? the complexity? the simplicity? yes all of these things and more... All you can do is give yourself deeply, even if no one else accepts you - without questioning or judging anything... ofcourse you need to pay attention to the people you're offering yourself to ... they'll tell you exactly how to sell to them if only you listen...

[Smile]

I have Li Jiong's Dao De Jing translation and his Cultivation course. Both worth far more then the price he charges...

[Li Jiong]

Say you had a book to sell that you thought would benefit any martial artist... and one day you notice that a local martial arts school is allowing outsiders to come in, have a look, and maybe sign up for calsses...

 

So you go in and you check out the building - it's very beautiful and ornate - painted in beautiful colours with exquisite sculptures all over the place, there is an energy about it, like it's been there a long time. As well as a huge courtyard to practice in there are many rooms with books and charts and medicines and herbs. Immediately you know that this is the perfect place to have your book on their shelves...

 

So you go and talk to the students, then the masters - they're all very proud of their place, their school and their way of life - they're all very knowledgeable and devoted to their art - When talking to the Grand Master of the school you suddenly bring out a book - you explain that this is your book that you have spent years in perfecting it and that it will change the practice of the martial arts school for the better... For no apparent reason the Grand Master widens his eyes, gets up and looks thoroughly offended - with his booming voice he says: "we have been here for centuries, we have a whole library of books and hundreds of years of oral traditions - now we invite you to our school, to have a look, and maybe if you're lucky become a student and you're trying to sell us something that's better than all this?"

 

Even though you know that the book would benefit them in some way, you decide that the school is too proud to receive any new knowledge. Disheartened you go back home... on the way you meet the local wiseman and tell him the full story... he listens thoroughly and then contemplates the story in deep thought. Eventually he asks you - "Did you read all their books before trying to sell yours?"

 

The Tao can be represented in limitless ways - what makes your way of representing it any better than someone elses? the price? your dedication? your unique view point? the complexity? the simplicity? yes all of these things and more... All you can do is give yourself deeply, even if no one else accepts you - without questioning or judging anything... ofcourse you need to pay attention to the people you're offering yourself to ... they'll tell you exactly how to sell to them if only you listen...

 

Thank you for your insight, freeform. Now I know why I incurred so many rancors, it is because my offering harms those 'masters' benefits, so as to they could not deceive themselves and others as easy as before.

 

Clarification: Gongfu has at least 1,500 years of oral tradition; Dao De Jing has a history of about 2,500 years; Houtian Bagua Practice has about 3,000 years of oral tradition; and Xiantian Bagua Practice has about 7,000 years of oral tradition. My offerings are all not worked out by me in a hurry. I am just the one who documented or translated these materials.

 

 

I have Li Jiong's Dao De Jing translation and his Cultivation course. Both worth far more then the price he charges...

 

Thank you for your support, Smile, and Plato

[DentyDao]

Li Jiong,

 

I just want to say I have enjoyed reading your perspective. Thanks for sharing this work; I would be interested in seeing further posting from you on this forum. I would be especially curious to know more about your perspective on the emergence of Taoist thought in the west.

 

S

 

P.S. I have found much of the criticism here of your efforts a little unfair- even misguided, but I think there are some interested who are perhaps less vocal; just thought I'd say so.

Edited November 22, 2006 by seandenty

[freeform]

Thank you for your insight, freeform. Now I know why I incurred so many rancors, it is because my offering harms those 'masters' benefits, so as to they could not deceive themselves and others as easy as before.

 

It's not so much the master trying to maintain his control - it's like each one of us is the martial arts school, each one of us has 'decorated' ourselves with our practices, our work, our preffered music, our humour, our clothes, our language - and if someone comes in to this perfect (but fake) world and offers you something that might break this perfect illusion appart - well, it's very scary and not only would your offering be refused but people can get angry... On the other hand if you 'read the school's books' - in other words pay attention to the person's perfect illusion, you will find out exactly how to sell him something that may indeed benefit him.

[forestofsouls]

I think people are inherently suspicious of people who charge for spiritual information. In the West, there is often a clear separation between the spiritual and material aspects of life. There is also a history of religious figures abusing their spiritual authority for personal gain. This stems from modern Evangelicals to the Catholic Church charging for dispensations to gurus like Osho who had a Rolls Royce for every day of the month. Many Westerners may feel that money corrupts, and mixing money with spiritual teaching, or charging for spiritual teaching, strikes people as wrong and brings to mind the highly publicized news stories of religious leaders taking a lot of money from the unwary. Many of us have had experiences with people fakes, scamsters, and frauds in this area. When some one who is offering spiritual goods talks about money, we often assume rightly or wrongly that the person is really after our money and doesn't care about spiritual teachings. A man cannot serve both God and money as the old Bible saying goes.

 

On the flip side is the material question. Many people expect spiritual teachers to offer their fruits free of charge. The problem with this is that spiritual teachers have physical needs--- food, clothing, shelter like everyone else. If a teacher comes into town to teach, who is to pay for the plane ticket, the hotel, the reserved space, and the food?

 

Then there is the question of skillful means. Many believe that a person will not value something unless they pay a lot of money for it. There is an old Slavic story about a man who bought hot peppers mistaking them for sweet fruit. But he sat down and ate every one, until his face was red and tears were running down his eyes because he had paid for them. If some one pays for a teaching, they may be more likely to put that teaching into practice.

 

Of course, some teachers, most notably Theradedan Buddhists, offer their teaching for dana. If some one believes the teaching has value, they pay after receiving the teaching. No payment is expected, but it is accepted.

 

On the one hand, I don't blame people for being wary of their money. If they gave their money to every spiritual authority who came along, everyone would be broke. On the other hand, I don't think that some one should be automatically condemned because they ask for payment. Spiritual people have physical needs, too.

 

I think Bill Bodri strikes a good balance with his materials. Although I disdain the tone of his website, he offers a lot of stuff for free. You can read his free materials, judge for yourself if he knows what he's talking about, and then buy his other items if you choose.

 

Just like I wrote to seandenty previously, people would probably be more accepting if individuals came to a site like this, established a rapport first, and then presented their offerings. Wayfarer64 advertises his book on this site, and has never been condemned. But he posts here often, and we know he's not here just to make a sale.

 

Just one person's opinion.