Real Meaning of Dao De Jing

[Ian]

Dear Mr. Li Jiong,

 

I also have written a book, called the Wayfarer Sonnets. A book of poetry relating to the 64 hexagrams of the Yi Jing. -

 

http://www.lulu.com/pdgart

 

Please read the preview & reviews. I hope that you at least may enjoy the few poems there.

 

As far as I can tell no one from the Tao Bums site has down-loaded or bought a copy. I guess this is a very tough crowd to sell a book to! Still, apparently they read quite a bit, so it may just be that we presume on them with our insights. They each have their own insights to dwell on as it is.

 

In any case I wrote my book as an artistic expression that seemed to just flow through me onto the pages, and I added/subtracted little in the way of editing. So My job is done. I let it flow through me and put it out there to read. I too can not offord to just give the work away, even though I would like to do so...But I am not extremely concerned if it sells many copies. I believe those who will get it - will get it, as it were...

 

So good luck with your book and maybe one day we can share more experiences of our literary efforts...

 

How did you find the process of submitting your manuscript to Lulu? This is something I'm planning to do soon. Any tips? Any problems?

 

Once I've got it sorted, I'll surely buy yours if you buy mine!

 

Best wishes,

I

[Li Jiong]

Li Jiong,

 

I just want to say I have enjoyed reading your perspective. Thanks for sharing this work; I would be interested in seeing further posting from you on this forum. I would be especially curious to know more about your perspective on the emergence of Taoist thought in the west.

 

S

 

P.S. I have found much of the criticism here of your efforts a little unfair- even misguided, but I think there are some interested who are perhaps less vocal; just thought I'd say so.

 

Thank you for your understanding.

 

IMO, the emergence of Daoist culture in the west in this time is not incidental. In the recent centuries, science develops very quickly, the main religions such as Christianism, Buddhism and Islam they all could not withstand the challenge of science. That's because these religions all have strong desires of expansion, and they intruded into the realm that does not belong to religion. Some knowledge of the world from these religions is very absurd in nowadays. These foolish overstepping the bound endanger the faith to themselves, so as to they have to maintain the faith of their followers by superstition. Of course, it is a vicious circle and cannot be efficient for long.

On the other hand, science has its own limitation. We do not mention the nuclear shadow and the pollution of the environment, but the spiritual problems, that could not be solved by science, and if we cannot solve the spiritual problems, we will not be really happy whatever how much wealth we hold.

Daoist culture focuses on the Xiantian world mainly, and it does not have a strong desire of expansion. Therefore, it got involved in the mundane world very few. And it has an efficient practice system to solve the ultimate problems of life, such as oldness, death, life sublimation and immortality; those are all cannot be solved by science whatever how great it develops in the future. Because Daoist culture insists in soul independence, and opposes idolatry, in the history, often, the governors did not like it, and it has not a strong desire of expansion itself. Although Daoist culture has a history much longer than whatever Christianism, Buddhism or Islam, it has not spread widely yet. Nowadays, following the popularization of Internet, the souls have better and better conditions to develop independently, Daoist culture gets a suitable soil to grow now. And whatever we like or not, globalization is a certain tendency. The emergence of Daoist culture in the west is inevitable.

There is a prediction now. It is said that a successful Daoist cultivator left the world last year, before he left the world, he said out a prediction: Daoist culture will develop vigorously after A.D. 2008; this development will not be driven by the Daoist monks in the temples, but will be driven by the young cultivators in the society. A.D. 2008 is not far, let's wait and see what happens.

[Li Jiong]

I think people are inherently suspicious of people who charge for spiritual information. In the West, there is often a clear separation between the spiritual and material aspects of life. There is also a history of religious figures abusing their spiritual authority for personal gain. This stems from modern Evangelicals to the Catholic Church charging for dispensations to gurus like Osho who had a Rolls Royce for every day of the month. Many Westerners may feel that money corrupts, and mixing money with spiritual teaching, or charging for spiritual teaching, strikes people as wrong and brings to mind the highly publicized news stories of religious leaders taking a lot of money from the unwary. Many of us have had experiences with people fakes, scamsters, and frauds in this area. When some one who is offering spiritual goods talks about money, we often assume rightly or wrongly that the person is really after our money and doesn't care about spiritual teachings. A man cannot serve both God and money as the old Bible saying goes.

 

On the flip side is the material question. Many people expect spiritual teachers to offer their fruits free of charge. The problem with this is that spiritual teachers have physical needs--- food, clothing, shelter like everyone else. If a teacher comes into town to teach, who is to pay for the plane ticket, the hotel, the reserved space, and the food?

 

Then there is the question of skillful means. Many believe that a person will not value something unless they pay a lot of money for it. There is an old Slavic story about a man who bought hot peppers mistaking them for sweet fruit. But he sat down and ate every one, until his face was red and tears were running down his eyes because he had paid for them. If some one pays for a teaching, they may be more likely to put that teaching into practice.

 

Of course, some teachers, most notably Theradedan Buddhists, offer their teaching for dana. If some one believes the teaching has value, they pay after receiving the teaching. No payment is expected, but it is accepted.

 

On the one hand, I don't blame people for being wary of their money. If they gave their money to every spiritual authority who came along, everyone would be broke. On the other hand, I don't think that some one should be automatically condemned because they ask for payment. Spiritual people have physical needs, too.

 

I think Bill Bodri strikes a good balance with his materials. Although I disdain the tone of his website, he offers a lot of stuff for free. You can read his free materials, judge for yourself if he knows what he's talking about, and then buy his other items if you choose.

 

Just like I wrote to seandenty previously, people would probably be more accepting if individuals came to a site like this, established a rapport first, and then presented their offerings. Wayfarer64 advertises his book on this site, and has never been condemned. But he posts here often, and we know he's not here just to make a sale.

 

Just one person's opinion.

 

Thank you for your insight, it is helpful for me.

 

Daoist Practice is not a religion; it is also not only spiritual. For a religion, its main interest is drawing more people into their circle, and little by little, control people's thoughts, let them grovel under an icon. But Daoist Practice tries to release one's soul, because immortality must come from self-realization. It cultivates one's self-governed consciousness and habit from the just beginning. So a Daoist will not teach a student without sake, of course, the sake is not must money. Free offering will result in one's grateful mentality, and often, that will be a start of idolatry. So long as one gets in idolatry, in substance, his/her life is destroyed.

 

We'd better alert to the free offering extremely.

[thaddeus]

Daoist Practice is not a religion; it is also not only spiritual. For a religion, its main interest is drawing more people into their circle, and little by little, control people's thoughts, let them grovel under an icon. But Daoist Practice tries to release one's soul, because immortality must come from self-realization.

This is very true. Eckart Tolle explains that often people substitute the 'little me' for the 'little we'. Both are illusions.

We'd better alert to the free offering extremely.

I often hear about how 'so and so' is such a nice guy, etc. It's important to realize that behind many people's 'niceness' is actually a devious form of an attempt to control. Unconscious people control and become controlled by niceness. I know very few people who are nice out of pure reasons.

I don't have a hang up about paying for things. However, knowing how one can manifest everything they need, I am suspect of people who charge extremely high prices and seem to make getting money the most important issue. I've seen many high level people charge a certain price and also offer the teaching to people for whatever they can afford. Because money is not an issue for them. You can manifest everything you need easily, so why milk less conscious people for money? I think your personal wealth is a fairly accurate representation of your overall energy level. Your bank account, your libido, your chi, luck, relationships are all related and barometers of your progress in cultivation. So rather than fight or bemoan your fate, try to understand why money is not flowing into your life. We so easily pay attention to armor in our bodies and chi flow in our meridians and seem to think money and luck are not related to those same things...

T

[Li Jiong]

I don't have a hang up about paying for things. However, knowing how one can manifest everything they need, I am suspect of people who charge extremely high prices and seem to make getting money the most important issue. I've seen many high level people charge a certain price and also offer the teaching to people for whatever they can afford. Because money is not an issue for them. You can manifest everything you need easily, so why milk less conscious people for money?

 

Actually, the prices that I ask for my offering are not high. A course can be practiced for years, and I just ask for tens of dollars. If you come to China to learn such a course, you may spend thousands of dollars. Furthermore, even if you would like to pay thousands of dollars, it is still not easy to find a qualified teacher who would like to teach you. I am curious why you think these prices are "extremely high"?

 

I think your personal wealth is a fairly accurate representation of your overall energy level. Your bank account, your libido, your chi, luck, relationships are all related and barometers of your progress in cultivation. So rather than fight or bemoan your fate, try to understand why money is not flowing into your life. We so easily pay attention to armor in our bodies and chi flow in our meridians and seem to think money and luck are not related to those same things...

T

 

According to your opinion, then Bill Gates must be the one who has the highest overall energy level in the world, funny

[sunshine]

Guys,

 

if I am allowed to chime in...

 

I do not understand the whole issue... or actually, to a certain extent I do...

 

why argue about all this? It won't lead to real clarification as each of you has their own pretty deep rooted belief and conviction...!

 

If we were to analyse the whole discussion we'd be able to show many little unintentional steps that can shake the bones out of anothers belief system letting them argue in ways that bear any reasons...

 

I believe it is neither beneficial to pressure someone to reading something or buying it (which wasn't done)

and I do not know if we can really allow ourselves to judge why another is asking a certain price. We can ask ourselves if the steps that are taken to offer something are appropriate, but even this is pretty relative as each person you ask about their feeling will give you a different answer according to their history, belief AND possibilities as well as necessaties...

 

looking back I know that I have written just obvious stuff. Nothing earth shaking... and some of you might

not even be able to jawn a little about it...

 

nevertheless I somehow felt it needed to be said

 

with Smiles

 

Harry

[thaddeus]

I am curious why you think these prices are "extremely high"?

I wasn't talking about you!

According to your opinion, then Bill Gates must be the one who has the highest overall energy level in the world, funny

I don't think it's funny, it's something to study. I can not say he has 'the highest energy', but he has something. Perhaps it's a low resistance to 'allowing' money. He doesn't have limiting beliefs when it comes to money. We don't know about his spirit. He may be an advanced cultivator, you may be surprised.

[forestofsouls]

I think your personal wealth is a fairly accurate representation of your overall energy level. Your bank account, your libido, your chi, luck, relationships are all related and barometers of your progress in cultivation. So rather than fight or bemoan your fate, try to understand why money is not flowing into your life. We so easily pay attention to armor in our bodies and chi flow in our meridians and seem to think money and luck are not related to those same things...

 

I think your personal wealth shows where your aims lie. Protestants have justified their wealth in spiritual terms for years. Never mind that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

At the core of every major spiritual tradition is the idea of renunciation, of withdrawing on a certain level from the world and the things of the world. The cultivator par excellence is the monk, and in every tradition a monk takes a vow of poverty. Theravedan Buddhist monks aren't even allowed to touch money. In both certain Buddhist and Biblical traditions, it is said that people who have money have it so they may be free from the physical world and cultivate. I have yet to meet a single wealthy person who is interested in spiritual cultivation. I've met many wealthy people who are interested in making more money. But then, maybe I'm running in the wrong circles.

 

Perhaps true wealth, as Thomas Merton once wrote, is not measured by what one has, but by what one can do without.

[Wayfarer64]

How did you find the process of submitting your manuscript to Lulu? This is something I'm planning to do soon. Any tips? Any problems?

 

Once I've got it sorted, I'll surely buy yours if you buy mine!

 

Best wishes,

I

 

Yo Ian,

 

The Lulu process is very easy...And for the most part it is free to get a book published through them. I did not buy any of their promotional services as yet... So, just put yr work- EXACTLY as you want it printed into a PDF format and submit it. I did not get mine edited well enough as I later found some typos- nothing of content -just some spelling etc... And I've desided to rewrite the intro... So get it exactly as you will want it to be.

 

It makes some sense to me just to swap books when yr finished, so as to enable signed inscriptions & not even use lulu as a financial go-beween. I do suggest buying several copies for yourself to use as promotions and gifts...

 

I remain surprised that no one at The Tao Bums has bought a copy of my book as yet. I'm not sure if it is a lack of understanding as to the importance of the Yi Jing to Taoist thought as the original source - which I have seen here, a dislike of poetry, or whatever the case may be.

 

Money is not a likely issue, as the book is pretty inexpensive. I did send a copy to Sean when he offered to put a banner ad on this site. He offered this before I thought of it and I gave him the book in thanks not as payment...He and I seem to share a lack of materialism that has given us some stress on mundane levels. America is not supportive of artists nor of seekers in general. There are cities in Europe that have larger budgets for supporting culture than the USA's Federal Government has!

 

As with Li Jiong's work there seems to be a barrier for acceptence of other's efforts in attempting to write down their interpretation of and involvement with Taoism. This may indeed be a healthy attitude on some levels when one is in the process of forming one's own understanding of Taoist thought and practice. Still I find it puzzling, as I have found greater support at other non-Taoist sites.

 

So- Good luck with your books! To both Li & Ian-

 

Namaste-PDG

[thelerner]

In a totally different direction- How much man, how much myth do you ascribe to Lao Tzu. Many think, including Winn I believe, that the Old Man, is a conglomerate of Taoist thoughts by different people at different times.

 

That riding off into the sunset and/or immortality is the mythic imbellishments that we need to truly believe in something, beyond there plain worth.

 

Michael

[thaddeus]

I think your personal wealth shows where your aims lie.

True, but it takes energy to activate it. Plenty of people love money but have no personal power to make it happen. That was my point. I think it's interesting to study high achievers. When you have personal power you can do anything, whether it's directed towards being a monk and renouncing or being 'lucky' or whatever.

But overall, it's all transient nonsense. A dream.

T

 

 

nevertheless I somehow felt it needed to be said

 

with Smiles

 

Harry

Just to be clear, Li Jiong, i'm not harboring anything against you. I would enjoy continued banter and conversation--it's challenging and fun. And if you ever come to NY, I would welcome you warmly.

T

[thelerner]

I've always thought true wealth is being happy with what you have. I don't think money, having or not having as a litmus test to spirituality. You can be obsessed with money and things, but you can also stink of zen with pungent ripe humility.

 

Michael

 

There is an old gate in Jerusalem called the eye of the needle. Its narrow but you can get a camel through it. I have great respect for the monastic tradition, but I also see the value (maybe greater value) of us norms.

 

Maybe its a matter of the cycles of life, being student, soldier, lover, entreupreneur, monk...

[Wayfarer64]

I believe, that the Old Man, is a conglomerate of Taoist thoughts by different people at different times.- thelerner

 

I've thought quite a lot about this, my take on it is in part that:

 

It is likely that there were many Shamanistic "philosophers" who developed what became "Taoist" teachings long before Lao Tzu compiled them. The Yi Jing is several millenium old and likely predates the historical evidence that can be found for its beginnings, which are on ancient turtle shells and the shoulder blades of oxen etc... It is said that the Yi Jing predates the wheel in China and was developed in an incredibly early stage of human pre-history.

 

The Way seems to have been a revelation amongst a gathering of humanbeings who were aware of the inner spirit in all things and the nature of change being a constant factor in all of life...Yet wanted to give guidance as to how we may make the best of all this variety and change...

 

Why is it that so many religions have figure-heads and prophets offering the basic nature of spirituality and tending to give a human face to the devine?...I for one don't think that Taoism needs such a figurehead. The Tao may be exactly the same essence it was those 7 thousand years ago- but I doubt it. Being the seed of all change, why wouldn't some sort of eternal transcendence be a part of its' various atributes?

 

I have always wondered about the nature of self-awareness in absolute cosmic oneness- call it god or the Tao or Allah -whatever... & if this quality of consciousness is that which we seek within ourselves and need so many names for and prophets to credit with its descovery...Why do we need to give it a worldly substance and founder only so that we can then call it our own?

 

But this is pretty far off-thread here...or maybe not!?

[forestofsouls]

True, but it takes energy to activate it. Plenty of people love money but have no personal power to make it happen. That was my point. I think it's interesting to study high achievers. When you have personal power you can do anything, whether it's directed towards being a monk and renouncing or being 'lucky' or whatever.

But overall, it's all transient nonsense. A dream.

 

That makes more sense. Not to say I agree, because on some level, I think spiritual cultivation is of a different quality. I'll have to let that cook awhile, see what comes up.

 

But it reminds me of the old Tai Chi joke:

 

The student and his master were practicing tai chi for several years. The student practiced long and hard but found that he had learned very little. So he asked his master, "Sifu, how long does it take to learn Tai Chi?"

 

His Sifu replied, "Ten years."

 

The student frowned. "But I have been practicing so long and so hard!"

 

"Ah," said his Sifu, "For you... twenty years."

 

I do agree that a good financial foundation makes spiritual cultivation easier, at least in places where there isn't a strong monastic tradition in effect. The teachers I've had have always said that one must first straighten out one's ordinary life before spiritual cultivation is possible: you have to attend to the bills, your family, and so forth. Oddly, since I've focused on spiritual goals over material, my material life has improved.

[mat black]

Oddly, since I've focused on spiritual goals over material, my material life has improved.

 

 

That has been my experience too. I think it is a 2 way street

I was going to discontinue study with one of masters for a few months because of financial contraints. But after making the committment to continue for as long as possible, money has arrived when needed and other circumstances have also become easier. This is not only my experience, but also the experience of others within the group.

 

A lot of that has to do with the power the divine beings from within his lineage which directly help and asist us once we make the sincere committment to the master and his teachings.

[Li Jiong]

Guys,

 

if I am allowed to chime in...

 

I do not understand the whole issue... or actually, to a certain extent I do...

 

why argue about all this? It won't lead to real clarification as each of you has their own pretty deep rooted belief and conviction...!

 

If we were to analyse the whole discussion we'd be able to show many little unintentional steps that can shake the bones out of anothers belief system letting them argue in ways that bear any reasons...

 

I believe it is neither beneficial to pressure someone to reading something or buying it (which wasn't done)

and I do not know if we can really allow ourselves to judge why another is asking a certain price. We can ask ourselves if the steps that are taken to offer something are appropriate, but even this is pretty relative as each person you ask about their feeling will give you a different answer according to their history, belief AND possibilities as well as necessaties...

 

looking back I know that I have written just obvious stuff. Nothing earth shaking... and some of you might

not even be able to jawn a little about it...

 

nevertheless I somehow felt it needed to be said

 

with Smiles

 

Harry

 

Thank you for your understanding and support, Harry.

 

I do not want to argue with anybody, I just try to present myself as exact as possible

 

Just to be clear, Li Jiong, i'm not harboring anything against you. I would enjoy continued banter and conversation--it's challenging and fun. And if you ever come to NY, I would welcome you warmly.

T

 

Thanks for the welcome.

[thaddeus]

Oddly, since I've focused on spiritual goals over material, my material life has improved.

It's possible the statement 'seek first the kingdom of [insert your favorite concept] and all else will be added unto you' was about this.

T

[Li Jiong]

About personal wealth and energy level, in Daoist view, personal wealth belongs to one's Houtian fortune, it is close related with one's Houtian energy level; cultivation level is close related with one's Xiantian energy level. Houtian energy and Xiantian energy can be transformed each other under certain conditions. But generally, cultivators would not like to consume their Xiantian energy to get in return of wealth, unless one's wealth cannot maintain his/her life and cultivation. If one holds overfull personal wealth, but he/she is still eager for earning money, basically, we can judge he/she is not a real cultivator. Houtian fortune can be transformed into Xiantian fortune by cumulating secret merits using one's wealth, one can also learn cultivation from cultivators using his/her money, actually, this is also a way of cumulating secret merits. One cannot bring any wealth when he/she leaves the world, many moneybags hold overful wealth but they are still eager for earning money, don't know they can transform their Houtian fortune into Xiantian fortune to approach immortality, those guys are extremely silly. One's overall energy level is his/her Xiantian energy level plus his/her Houtian energy level, for a cultivator, often, his/her Xiantian energy level is much higher than his/her Houtian energy level.

 

I was a doctor of Traditional Chinese Medicine before, about ten years ago, I gave up this position to cultivate myself whole-heartedly. If I stay in this position, my personal wealth will be much more than now I holding, but obviously, if as a doctor, I don't think my overall energy level will be higher than me now as a professional cultivator.

[DentyDao]

Dear Li Jiong,

 

Only a few of the members here probably even know about HouTian and XianTian differences and meaning. It's ironic that many of the people who have voiced their irritation with your presence here have no idea of even these basic concepts in Taoism. It really showes a basic lack of understanding and disrespect for the tradition they aspire to be a part of.

 

Anyway, I don't want to be too critical of some of the well meaning members here; it's the way of the west to offer this kind of naive challenge. It just means they like you in their own crude way and are intrigued to know more. You should really be commended for sticking around, it shows some maturity on your part and a genuine desire to help. Good work.

 

Could you further illustrate the differences between HouTian and XianTian for those interested. I'd also be interested in a basic definition of these two terms for comparrison to the teaching I received. My understanding is still just very basic.

 

I think you should start a clinic here to teach some of the basic tenets of Taoism. Save you answers and publish it as a book for beginners. It would be really helpful for those with no real connection to traditional Taoism.

 

Peace, S

[Wayfarer64]

Dear Li Jiong & Sean Denty,et al...

 

I hope this idea of teaching the basics catches on here. I for one believe that the Yi Jing's roots are more basic to Taoist instruction than even the Tao De Jing's. I know that few here would agree with this, but in terms of age alone the premise rings true.

 

For me there is no more immediate experience of being part of the here and now - than tapping into the Yi Jing and delving into my own mind's understanding of the readings I find there. Delving into the four trigrams of each hexagram, grasping the power and place of each line and how my own inner being can best interact with the world around me has tendered a truly blessed mind-set for me to be grateful for!

 

I understand that the mystic and esoteric nature of the Yi Jing makes it less accessable to most people, even the Chinese scholars I have spoken with - maintain that it is too well-wrapped in an "onion skin" of bewildering levels of meaning for anyone to grasp fully. That should not preclude the effort.

 

Sean, you have often stated that the western mind-set often gets in the way of any true or deeper understanding of Taoist thought. I do not disagree! But that doesn't mean we can't change our mind-sets and become more atuned to the purer aspects of these teachings.

 

The most basic of concepts that I have gleaned is the expectation of enhancing inner worth not material gain from my Taoist practices. I do not seek anything other than an enhanced ability to serve the world I live in. This shedding of personal concerns has caused me great discomforture in the Amercan society in which I live. I seldom get a positive response to my nonmaterialistic views of what is truly important in my life.

 

Yet I, of course, still need to support my corporial state of being, as we all do. Somehow things always seem to work out that I am able to survive and eat regularly, even as my efforts do little to further this ability!

 

That Li Jiong has also commited to sharing his insights as have you Sean and indeed, as have most others here is a great blessing for all of us to build on. The tensions we feel when/while our efforts are not accepted or are even rejected is natural but remain frustrating. We have each expressed annoyance and frustration over our efforts not being taken at face value! It reminds me of all the guff I have given my teachers through my many years in school and independent study. I wish I could appologize to each of them now. Sharing knowledge is very tricky business.

 

I have written of this learning process as being like water... Once grounded, it flows downwards and fills in hollows, following the path of least resistance until finding its' own level. I think of the ocean as the Tao, evaporating into the atmosphere to become rain and keeping the whole process going.

 

So for me, the nature of water is much to be emulated! Be of use to all and behave according to natural laws and precepts to eventually become one with the vast ocean of being. Doing this with humility and good humour leaves little else to be desired.

[mat black]

About personal wealth and energy level, in Daoist view, personal wealth belongs to one's Houtian fortune, it is close related with one's Houtian energy level; cultivation level is close related with one's Xiantian energy level. Houtian energy and Xiantian energy can be transformed each other under certain conditions. But generally, cultivators would not like to consume their Xiantian energy to get in return of wealth, unless one's wealth cannot maintain his/her life and cultivation.

 

Dear mr Li Jong, this is very interesting and is in accordance with what my master has been telling us.

 

My master was telling us that some people CANNOT have alot of money because they are not able to handle it or are not ready for it. - is what you are refereing to by "Houtian"? which I am understanding to mean ones' capacity for wealth, or ability to have wealth.? (this is determined by a variety of factors)

We were also told that this capacity for wealth can be changed. EXample, one who formally was not able to have wealth, can over time, change various things about themself and circumstances and over time, obtain a gtreater capacity for wealth

 

One's overall energy level is his/her Xiantian energy level plus his/her Houtian energy level, for a cultivator, often, his/her Xiantian energy level is much higher than his/her Houtian energy level.

 

Yes, this is what we were told too. And my understanding, so far, is that the Xiantian level can be used to increse the Houtian energy level, but it only once a person has consolidated their Xiantian level

 

Houtian fortune can be transformed into Xiantian fortune by cumulating secret merits using one's wealth, one can also learn cultivation from cultivators

 

so, they can be interchanged if one understands how, and if one has correct intentions?

 

I would like it if you could please say more about this.

 

Thanks

[Li Jiong]

[voice]

Li Jiong say: For example, I see the photos of thelerner, Ian, Sean and Plato here, I feel the Xiantian energy level of Sean and Plato are much higher than the level of thelerner and Ian, from their posts, I get the same feeling. Perhaps you can feel this too if you put their photos together. I do not want to attack anyone, just give an example.

 

Chris says: boo! bad form! Don't diss any of the 'bums! Please pick on pop culture icons that we all know.

[Uncle Fester]

.

Edited September 28, 2021 by darebak

[Li Jiong]

mat black, about 'obtain a greater capacity for wealth', I do not have personal experience yet. I think thaddeus may be more experienced in this field.

 

'The gabby talkers are short of tactics, I would rather keep my Shen in my center.' My words here are over, Good Luck!