MANIFESTING

[thaddeus]

I agree with Ian.

 

The reason that I agree with Ian is to do with my experiences in meditation, and post meditation periods when clarity and tranquillity have sustained and my centres are so clear that there is not so much 'me' around- those times when I am most free and centred and unencumbered by my connection to the corporeal world. At such times, it is crystal clear what distorted shapes one's psyche gets itself into in order to interact on ego levels. Wanting stuff is part of the string that ties us up. It has no part in my spiritual life at all.

 

The will is part of the ego is part of the psyche - and this is a ball of tangly string that ties us up in knots we are vain enough to imagine we comprehend or control.

The Ferrari story is good... gruesome, but good.

Again, I just don't see passing judgement on wanting or not wanting. You can interchange the two ideas. Not wanting stuff also ties you up. If something obstructs my air, I want to breathe, I want to live. That's not bad or good, spiritual or unspiritual. If I start to feel good or righteous because I'm denying myself, or giving, or whatever, it's the same trap as being selfish. I feel the path of righteousness is also a tangily ball of string.

That's all I'm saying..is not attach labels of 'good' or 'bad' to this stuff. Didn't Lao Tzu say putting these labels on things makes people quarrel--or something to that effect.

You bring up an interesting idea about what is a spiritual life..I think that's worth a separate thread..

T

[三江源]

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Edited March 26, 2015 by 三江源

[Yoda]

So far, I've never met anyone who has overcome their egos and desires. I've met people who have created very delightful and generous egos, but nobody has come close to transcending it except for autistic individuals.

 

I'm thinking that as long as one has a body, that it's impossible to ditch or transcend the ego to the point that the "overcome your ego" paradigm is something of a tar baby.

 

Like the Christian concept of sin.

 

Sure there's something to it, and it has some good applications... but the parasite load is just too high and the second the concept falls out of the hands of the jolly yogis and into the hands of moralism, it becomes a tool to beat yourself up with. Like how the Desert Christians would feel like shit for having a body. Trying to achieve something impossible just makes you frustrated.

 

Maybe one could articulate the feeling of coming out of meditation as "bliss" or "spirit" or "love" or "relaxation" or "fearlessness" etc. Some target that is easier to hit and actually live up to.

 

If you look at the gurus of the world whether spiritual or material, they all have gargantuan egos which they are very happy with. One can easily argue that a strong ego is a positive and necessary thing.

 

-Yoda the Magnificent.

 

PS Sean is a spiritual superstar in my book! Sure there are dudes who can meditate without scratching themselves and levitate and all that, but how many of them made taobums?

[hajii]

Fascinating subject, I had been meaning to post on this, but here it is already, beautiful! It's really interesting to me that there are two seperate areas to explore, "eastern" with internal alchemy , yoga, meditation, and "western" with spirit guides, oracles, and manifesting reality. I feel deeply that there is only one. We are spiritual beings having a physical experience, and have temporarily forgotten our true nature. We are all aware of it on some level, and it manifests as a deep longing.

The experience of our true nature, of source, oneness with god, samhadi, realization, is bliss. Complete, utter mind-blowing. I KNOW this, because I have experienced it first hand. Please don't think I am hung up on myself, I'm just a traveler like you. I can't maintain it, but I have been taking my "eastern" practices more seriously, and the increase in spiritual strength has allowed me to realize it is attainable.

I may seem off on a tangent but bear with me I recently read "Ask and it is given" by Abraham-hicks, and it changed my life. Not that it was totally new to me, but the concepts were put together, and explained in such a way that really gave me an AHA! moment. I had been studying and thinking about this stuff for years, but it really put it all together. I guess the "distillation" of my inquiry into spiritual matters is this: Emotional/physical trauma becomes incorporated into the physical/subtle bodies and becomes stuck. These blockages keep source/qi from flowing. This causes misery/depression/sickness. And yet the "cure" is relatively simple, these blockages "uwind" if we just listen/pay attention to them when we are still. The increased energy flow brings greater and greater levels of health/awareness/joy. At some point it begins to feel blissful, and lots of cool stuff happens!! Eventually, we become aware of ourselves outside our bodies, on the astral/spiritual level. Haven't experienced much beyond that

The coolest things about the Abraham-Hicks book were the ideas that: Our emotional guidance system (how good an idea feels when we hold it in our minds) shows if it is aligned with spirit or not. The more aligned we are, the more spirit flows, and so, the better we feel. Creation is an INTEGRAL part of being spiritually aware/blissful. If we joyously create, we will recieve ever greater levels of bliss!

I haven't figured it out yet, but these two "areas" are just part of the big picture. There is no dichotomy, all is one

So it is the same with creation, we have negative patterns that prevent us from believing we are capable of this or that. There is no "shortage" of God/source, the lack is only within us. This life is all about exploring that, and as we unwind ourselves, we go back to the light/God our true selves.

[Ian]

 

Yes, unless you're enlightened, god-realised, transformed by direct experience of the stillness within and possessing permanent access to the peace that passeth understanding, then there damn well is a conflict.

Does that describe you? It doesn't me.

 

Individual will is petty, selfish, mental and aligned with fear and greed. Even when it's trying really hard to be nice. Right now I may seem like I'm trying to champion virtue in some half-assed way, but I just want to be right.

 

 

I just hope you can see how what you are saying is so prejudiced with your particular point of view and belief system and is not necessarily true for everyone.

 

Please, what I'm saying about individual will and the egoic mind is not a result of a twisted upbringing or something. It is the core principle, which I've come to gradually, reluctantly, accept, of such spiritual teachers as Barry Long, Eckart Tolle, and, er, Buddha.

 

And I'm not saying that being denied stuff is good of itself. But denying yourself stuff puts you in a position where you can observe your own distress. We tend to notice our distress and take our pleasure for granted. Denial is not virtuous of itself. But it's a good tool. And a refreshing change, on this planet.

 

To clarify another thing: When I talk about manifesting I'm talking about making things happen by non-ordinary, "magickal" type means. When Sean made this website happen, as far as I'm aware, he just made it happen, by physical, observable, typing code and paying servers.

 

And, no, Thaddeus, your style is not irritating me. My own inability to convince everyone that they're utterly wrong and I'm utterly right is irritating me, and I take full responsibility for that.

 

 

And, Yoda, I've met three people, to my knowledge, who've overcome their ego enough to be radically different to the rest of us. And been exposed to the teachings of a couple more. I believe that it's not only possible, but necessary. Otherwise people can, as you say, rearrange the furniture to become kind, generous, whatever. But that doesn't prepare you for death....

[Ian]

[三江源]

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Edited March 26, 2015 by 三江源

[sean]

Dear God,

 

Please grant me the serenity

to accept the things I cannot change;

courage to change the things I can;

and wisdom to know the difference.

 

Amen.

[Yoda]

So I belong to a real estate investment club, and last month they had a pretty bitchin door prize, so I won it. This month I thought that I wouldn't be piggy but the doorprize was worth $1,000 and way cool so I went into meditation right before they would select the winner and won it too. I thought, uh oh, they'll think I've fixed the vote but I'm the only one who knows about meditation so of course I have an advantage. I thought I ought to lay off the doorprizes for awhile but then at the door on my way out some guy made me a deal worth 2-3k as rent if he could use the little prizey for 2 weeks... Another 'door' prize!

 

That's how I got through my teens and 20s... constant miracles. I didn't even have to meditate back then either, I was so happy but this kind of thing is happening more and more often since I've started meditating again so that's definitely fun... the kid is back!

[sunshine]

... the kid is back!

 

O.k. Yoda... here'S the dark side claiming your soul...

 

you are familiar with Bill Bodri, right? Now. He speaks lots and lots and lots of accumulating merit... if he is true with his assumptions you have accumulated lots and lots and lots of it... but what about this:

 

if accumulating merits (having a bank full of it) is necessary for spiritual development, exhanging them with material goods takes them away from ones "spiritual bank account"...

 

I want to bring up Falun Gong's "theory"... whatever one might think about Falun Gong itself... the theory seems to be based in some Buddhist teachings: it is said that by accumulating merit your "Gong" raises...

 

but there is more:

say: somebody does you something bad... the idea is that they then pick up some of your bad karma and you get some of their virtuous white substance... (if I remember correctly)... the more you have of this the more easy it is to be materially wealthy but if you exchange it against material wealth: puff. all will be gone and nothing left for your way to enlightenment...

 

what do you think?

 

Harry

[Yoda]

Jmo: I don't believe that there's a shortage of good energy. The belief in any sort of happiness shortage is what we are striving to overcome. The best practitioners, the most egoless, are the ones who have a powerful, visceral belief in goodness. They don't have to guard and miser out the lifeforce.

[thelerner]

Dear God,

 

Please grant me the serenity

to accept the things I cannot change;

courage to change the things I can;

the strength to beat the crap

out of those who bother me

and the wisdom to get away with it.

 

 

Michael

Edited April 14, 2006 by thelerner

[Pietro]

I have a couple of info on the stories that I wanted to throw in from a long time.

 

first:

Question to Bruce:

"If I go in the stock market and make a million dollar, and if I use my energy and intention to manifest a million dollar, how are the two things different from the karmic point of view?"

Answer:

"If you go in the stock market you are just going with the flow, the karma is nearly nothing. If you manifest the money, instead, you will be held responsible for every ripple that manifesting action is making on reality. Both in positive and in negative. So be very sure about all of them before manifesting anything"

 

Second (it will become important later):

Bruce: "If you feel a blockage at the karmic level dissolve it..."

Question: "Would the fact of dissolving the blockage mean that the karma will not happen at all?"

Answer:"If you are at Messiah level in which you just say to a mountain move and it moves, yeah. For all the rest of us, it just means that the karma hits you without tearing you apart. Somehow you are able to handle the changes much better"

 

Third: there is a friend of mine I use to practice with. I started meditation one year after her. But her progress were very fast. Most of my first progress happened because I have had the luck of unfolding while she was unfolding too. We would visit masters around the world and she would be invited in with all the honors, called bodhisatva, and then they would say: "Oh you also brought your little friend," tap tap, toward me. I shall just say that it took her really a long time to understand that because she is able to do something and her students are able to do something in her presence, it does not naturally follow that other people are able to do it, or her students are able to do it when she is gone. And I am always not sure she got that totally. You got the idea. We shall call her F.

 

So I spoke with F. about this issue of manifesting. She said (if I remember well): "...when you manifest (something new) you are cocreating with God. Which is part of the reason why we are here.". "But what about Karma?" "Oh Karma is good, it makes us connected one another, so we make one body. And Karma is so simple, it is just a pattern. If you don't like it you just repattern it".

 

Yeah, right!

 

So putting it all together it seems to suggest that it would be a good thing to learn how to handle karma before starting to manifest an elephant in your living room.

 

Fourth story(I might have told this before, I am not sure):

 

another friend of mine.

 

him: "I am very pissed off for not making love whith all the women I desire"

me: "will you do anything about it?"

him: "I am going to ... (manifest) that: "I can make love with any women I desire"

me: "hmm"

 

6 months later.

"so how is it going?"

"fine... blah blah blah"

"what about your ... (manifestation)?"

"Oh, it's not a problem any more?"

"You have a gf? two? three?"

"I just don't desire them anymore"

I laugh: "so you asked to make love with all the women you desired. To have this realised either you or the whole world had to change, and the universe took the path of least effort, and changed you by taking away your desire"

him jumping on the scooter: "I just remembered I have an appointment, I see you tomorrow"

and off he went.

 

6 months later he was the superstar at his (mostly female) faculty. Yet he would not make love with those women, he just had the possibility to.

 

Some people seem to think that to have a good manifestation you need to add a formula like: "As long as this is for the benefit of all manking" or "if it is good for it to be so", and so on.

I do have some serious issues with this kind of affirmation because they seem to take ethics and morality which I view as personal (which is why I got interested in Taoism, instead than in any other way to salvation) and situational and link the manifesting with an objective version of it. When you think there is no objective version you have a problem in doing it. Just slightly. Also it seem to me that part of our job as human beings is in discovering what our ethical and moral system is. As this gives us hints on each of us is. And I have difficulty in thinking that a ritual no matter how complex can cut through the simple fact that we need to look inside our heart and decide what is ok or not for us. (who to throw from the boat). I see this as our spiritual job, and the creation of a ritual that does it as impossible as concentrating on one color and becoming wise, or making an engine that produces more enery that the one that was put into (in one form or another).

 

 

But if you faced the same problem and found something that worked for you let me/us know.

 

Ok, good nap.

Pietro

[三江源]

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Edited March 26, 2015 by 三江源

[Ian]

The whole issue of manifesting is Darkened Horribly by the introduction of Noel Edmonds.

 

For those not British, Mr Edmonds has plagued our popular culture for twenty five years or so, presenting numerous television programmes of ever-decreasing quality.

 

His career had plummeted out of existence, after a series of freak accidents and something terrible called Crinkly Bottom.

 

Now, he's back, and gives all the credit to a book called The Cosmic Ordering Service, written by a German Lady, the principles of which seem very like Abraham's.

 

Archbishops are critical, and so am I, but for very different reasons. Never mind Karma, and responsibility.

 

The facts are clear. Anything which returns Noel Edmonds to us is Satan's work. Brits, support me.

[Pietro]

HOW we learn to handle karma......?

Oh, you just repattern it.

 

The facts are clear. Anything which returns Noel Edmonds to us is Satan's work. Brits, support me.

So now it is Noel Edmond the problem?

[sean]

Dear God,

 

Please grant me the serenity

to accept the things I cannot change;

courage to change the things I can;

the strength to beat the crap

out of those who bother me

and the wisdom to get away with it.

 

 

Michael

Even better!

[三江源]

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Edited March 26, 2015 by 三江源

[RedFox]

Just to toss one more thing out there... I listened to something yesterday that got my attention. I'm not sure it's completely new but he said it in a way that resonated a little better for me.

 

Robert Stevens talks about manifestating desires from a slightly different space. He's saying the correct way to do it is not to just envision/imagine your red ferrari or financial success or whatever, but to envision yourself from the space of having achieved it already. Almost as if you imagine yourself having the life you want, then being able to ask that version of yourself (or maybe "remember") how you achieved it. Then you go out and do those steps this version of yourself told you about.

 

I'm probably not paraphrasing it right, but here's the original talk.

http://www.consciousmedianetwork.com/members/rstevens.aspx

[neimad]

Jmo: I don't believe that there's a shortage of good energy. The belief in any sort of happiness shortage is what we are striving to overcome. The best practitioners, the most egoless, are the ones who have a powerful, visceral belief in goodness. They don't have to guard and miser out the lifeforce.

 

 

yoda man, i dig your vibe.

 

something i have been encountering with one of my spiritual teachers is the whole "sin" thing that is present throughout our religions, including the considered most lovely one of buddhism (i have a problem with buddhism because of my parents who are devout tibetan buddhist practitioners).

 

all of these religions have some kind of inherent belief that we are sinners, we are here because we sinned or did something wrong at some time in our existance.

 

the whole concept of karma itself is one based on sin.

 

personally i don't tolerate this line of thinking. there is no sin, there is only our perception of it. if we perceive ourselves to be sinners, then sure enough we are.

it's not a truth though and i refuse to subscribe to that kind of self-defeating belief.

 

i am perfectly imperfect.

i am the whole universe and i am nothing.

i am love.

i am innocent.

all beings are innocent.

 

i am a warrior, a king, a lover and a clown.

all my actions are from a place of love and innocence because there is nothing else.

[cloud recluse]

yoda man, i dig your vibe.

 

something i have been encountering with one of my spiritual teachers is the whole "sin" thing that is present throughout our religions, including the considered most lovely one of buddhism (i have a problem with buddhism because of my parents who are devout tibetan buddhist practitioners).

 

all of these religions have some kind of inherent belief that we are sinners, we are here because we sinned or did something wrong at some time in our existance.

 

the whole concept of karma itself is one based on sin.

 

If you have some reservations about Tibetan Buddhism,you have GOT to check out"In the Shadow of the Dalai Lama" by Victor & Victoria Trimondi. I think its at http://www.flameout.org/flameout/gurus/shadow/index.html .If Ive screwed that up,just look for the Flameout site. Its one hell of an expose of Tibetan misogyny.I actually went to the trouble of printing the whole thing out & binding it down at the local Officeworks! Regards,Cloud.

[Peregrino]

Wow, that flameout site is great--just what I need for my daily cup of iconoclasm!

The bit on Sangharakshita (check "Guru Index") was of particular interest since I first got my introduction to Buddhism through the FWBO. I did find the instructor to be a quite the gentle-voiced control freak, and I always thought it funny that a grand guru would have the word "shit" embedded in his name, so the eventual revelations of FWBO misconduct were none too surprising! Still, I have the FWBO to credit for teaching me mindful breathing. A sound practice is always a sound practice.

 

As for the topic of "manifesting"--that's a bit of a sore point, as I have a (potentially erstwhile) friend who has consistently either ignored or evaded me when faced with the responsibility of paying me back the money he's owed me for over three years. I know my treasure is where my heart is and all that, so I'm about to give up all contact with him and concentrate my energies elsewhere . . . But what really irks me is that this same person always used to pass himself off as a new age guru, telling people to just "relax, give in to the power of the universe, and all you need will be manifested from a natural abundance." Grrrr! I think he needs to take up Bill Bodri's "virtue course" (Cp. 7 from White Fat Cow) for a reality check--an increasingly rewarding reality check, as I've found from my own efforts, but that is a topic for another thread . . .

[Yoda]

P- Maybe just beat the crap out of him like Michael's prayer of acceptance. It goes a long ways towards accepting the imperfections of others. Or at least take a 12ga to his ride. Or sue him.

 

N- Buddhism is a rough gig. I hope they are wrong.

[thelerner]

ok. ok. Let me admit we shouldn't beat the crap out of anyone or kill any Buddha's on the road if we find them.

 

Spirituality and the the fragile vessels that preach it should be taken w/ a grain of salt. The guru that takes the money and runs is an excellent example of the Buddhas #1 lesson. Change and impermanence ; or maybe permanent lack of change.

 

 

Michael

[Mandrake]

Jmo: I don't believe that there's a shortage of good energy. The belief in any sort of happiness shortage is what we are striving to overcome. The best practitioners, the most egoless, are the ones who have a powerful, visceral belief in goodness. They don't have to guard and miser out the lifeforce.

 

 

But the more you think about it, at least for me 'good energy' means very little - exactly what? So if we manifest something, it doesn't pop out of thin air. If I would like to manifest for example 1 kg of gold (or something other limited) more gold wont be created, just directed to me, instead of someone else. Or say money - it's not that money is there in a 'manifesting' account waiting for someone to intending it into their life, it will come from someone else. There's no God (I believe) that will print money for you, ok, maybe the government, but then you actually have issues like inflation and productivity, so, the same thing.

 

If I would speak about energy, I wouldn't think there being a stream of 'good' energy and 'evil' energy, just energy put to different use. And obviously an infinite supply would make it possible to change everything.

 

What we are striving to overcome is maybe our view of and insight in what happiness is and what it comes from.

 

my 2 cents

 

Mandrake