Interesting and gritty interview with a Tibetan monk

[markern]

If you don't think European countries took a hit in this last crisis as much as us, that is pretty delusional.

 

The WHOLE WORLD suffered the same crisis my friend

 

Were did I say that?

 

Although it was your housing bubble though and you are still indebting yourself so much that you might very well be the next Greece if China and other countries in the world stops artificially inflating the US economy by borrowing it money.

 

Discussing the merits of two different systems based on the current economic climate and not a longer term assessment is just silly anyway.

Edited April 23, 2010 by markern

[RongzomFan]

If you want to take a longer timeframe, that is fine with me.

 

In the last few decades, europeans have had many more major economic troubles than america

Edited April 23, 2010 by alwayson

[markern]

If you want to take a longer timeframe, that is fine with me.

 

In the last few decades, europeans have had many more major economic troubles than america

 

If you look at GDP in Europe over the last decades it has grown almost as much as in the US. Hence the welfare system has not at all created the economic disaster FOX news would argue that it would. There can be plenty of reasons why the US ahs done slightly better. THere are advantages to being a larger economy, there are advantages to being the largest economic and military power in terms of negotiating favourable terms for yourself, the US has a younger population, more skilled immigrants etc. Primarily I think the main reason is that you work more hours a year. Not that more people work necessarily (which the welfare is bad argument would imply) but that people who do work choose to or have to work fewer hours. I think thats a good thing. You get more time to spend with your family for example. Anyway, little to none of the growth in the US economy has, as it was repeatedly promised it would, trickled down to the poorest. THey are largely no better of than 30 years ago. So, even IF it was the case that the US model was economically more efficient I find it irrelevant as long as the only one who benefits from that are the richest.

 

Interestingly enough the difference in the long term unemployment rates between the US and Europe is explained largely by your much larger prison population. It has been written quite a lot about you should look it up as it makes for funny but tragic reading.

 

Anyway, thats it for me I have no interest in partaking in a lengthy debate about any of this I just thought someone should mention the fact that a discussion of pure capitalism vs communism largely misses out on how a lot of countries in the rest of the world is run. Your neighbour Canada for example of such a successful compromise.

Edited April 23, 2010 by markern

[RongzomFan]

So, even IF it was the case that the US model was economically more efficient I find it irrelevant as long as the only one who benefits from that are the richest.

 

 

How do you imagine America?

 

99.5% of the population homeless or something?

Edited April 23, 2010 by alwayson

[markern]

How do you imagine America?

 

99.5% of the population homeless or something?

 

 

No of course not but if you compare with for example Sweden you have a much larger percentage of people who are very poor, people who have to work two jobs to make ends meet, people who are homeless, people who are in prison, people who is not offered proper health care by the state and can not afford it themselves. THis is combined with a large middle and upper middle class were especially the upper middle class are better of materially than the swedish middle class in that their house is bigger and they have a car that is larger etc but I don`t find much benefit either in economic growth that benefits primarily the upper middle class and upper class as long as none of it benefits the poor.

Edited April 23, 2010 by markern

[RongzomFan]

Most poor in America live like kings and queens compared to the third world

[markern]

Most poor in America live like kings and queens compared to the third world

 

Sure but try working full time at Mcdonalds and a job at night and still not being able to afford health insurance for your children, then report back how fun it was. You should read this:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_and_Dimed

[nac]

I thought Tibetan Buddhism teaches that violence can be skillful when it reduces ignorance and suffering in the bigger picture, but that it must always be kept under strict control and minimized whenever possible. (ie. the necessity of the deed should be questioned separately for each individual who's being struck down) That's what I thought at any rate. Maybe it's an advanced teaching I'm not supposed to know about.

[gendao]

Interestingly enough the difference in the long term unemployment rates between the US and Europe is explained largely by your much larger prison population. It has been written quite a lot about you should look it up as it makes for funny but tragic reading.

 

Your neighbour Canada for example of such a successful compromise.

So, the poor folks here are poor because they're unemployed. And they're unemployed because they're in prison. And they're in prison because they've committed crimes.

 

So, isn't the real problem here then high crime, and not "high" poverty?

 

If these people would stop committing crime, they'd stop going to jail & could make honest livings. This would also relieve taxpayers of the huge burdens imposed by running prisons as well as the loss of tax revenues from nonproductive, unemployed people.

 

 

This is why Socialism doesn't work here (see bankrupt California) - as compared to Europe or Canada. We have entirely different demographics & a far higher crime rate. Europe & East Asia don't have violent crime-ridden ghettos. We have one in every town here.

 

And in addition to welfare for all these poor thugs, we also spend $80 billion/mo killing Arabs over in the MidEast. Which is $80 billion/mo less that we could be spending at home improving our infrastructure, providing more services or on R&D for cleaner energy or clinical trials of holistic health methods.

 

Canada doesn't have strong industries that export much...so how do they do more with less? Simple - they are careful to spend a lot less too. They spend little on defense and don't fight offensive foreign wars. They are also essentially a gated country club that has very stringent immigration & import controls. They try to filter out all the societal drains and only allow in productive givers. You're not going to find many ghettos in Canada..

 

The real solution here is simply for liberals to spend less on welfare & neocons to spend less on foreign wars. With the amount of money saved from those 2 cuts alone, we could provide a much higher quality of life without radical overhauls like Socialism or Pelosicare. Like the DDJ says, it really doesn't have to be this hard. Live within your means. Promote self-reliance & avoid unnecessary wars (remember, the USSR bankrupted itself in our Cold War arms race).

Edited April 24, 2010 by vortex

[C T]

Europe & East Asia don't have violent crime-ridden ghettos. We have one in every town here.

 

 

I am pretty sure this is quite an inaccurate assessment. Vile crimes are quite rampant in Europe and organized crime is major in SE Asia. People smuggling, child labor, illegal gambling, prostitution, drugs, gun crimes, hi tech piracy, pornography, money laundering... Asia (think Triads/Yakuzas) produces some of the smartest/craziest criminals in the world, with crime lords creating global networks so sophisticated, powerful and cancerous that it is now impossible to eradicate the problem. They have ironically become "The Untouchables" (used to be the cops that once prided themselves with this label?).

Edited April 23, 2010 by CowTao

[goldisheavy]

Most poor in America live like kings and queens compared to the third world

 

Yea, fuck American poor, right? Fuck the lazy bastards.

[goldisheavy]

vortex,

 

You are so deluded, it hurts. You don't have the slightest understanding about how the world actually works.

 

The real solution here is simply for liberals to spend less on welfare & neocons to spend less on foreign wars. With the amount of money saved from those 2 cuts alone, we could provide a much higher quality of life without radical overhauls like Socialism or Pelosicare.

 

So why don't you move to Mexico then? They don't finance any wars, have low taxes, and have no socialized medicine.

 

http://www.heritage.org/Index/country/Mexico

 

Looks sexy, right? The numbers are sexy, I mean. Mexico is Ron Paulian/Ayn Randian wet dream of a country.

Edited April 24, 2010 by goldisheavy

[Sunya]

My point is that capitalism works quite well in America, and many other capitalist countries around the world.

 

Wait till you grow up a bit and learn more about this country, and the world. You're going to laugh that you ever said this, and be quite embarrassed.

 

Living longer and healthier is not enough justification for being a slave to corporations and banks. Wake up and see how we are constantly bombarded with advertisements of what we need, what we crave. Our economy thrives on consumerism and we are simply units in an economic equation. Consumerism thrives off of desire. How can you pretend to understand Buddhism and see capitalism as something good that works? Half of this country are on anti-depressants and divorce rates are through the roof. People aren't happy. There is something fundamentally wrong with how this country is operated and its expressed in the psyche of its people. If capitalism worked here, as you say, then people would be happy. Instead the people are hooked on drugs, legal or illegal, to cope with their slavish existence.

Edited April 24, 2010 by mikaelz

[S-Curve]

I'm entering this thread midway through, and don't have a lot of time at the moment...

 

but first off, thank you for the intelligent voice of reason apepch7 and goldisheavy.

 

Good god, i am really surprised at the ignorance of some of the posters here.

 

If you don't know history, and if you haven't seen the world (for all its good and bad), how can you possibly make an informed judgement on these matters? My god, ignorance may be blissful but its not gonna win you any admirers.

[S-Curve]

I am pretty sure this is quite an inaccurate assessment. Vile crimes are quite rampant in Europe and organized crime is major in SE Asia. People smuggling, child labor, illegal gambling, prostitution, drugs, gun crimes, hi tech piracy, pornography, money laundering... Asia (think Triads/Yakuzas) produces some of the smartest/craziest criminals in the world, with crime lords creating global networks so sophisticated, powerful and cancerous that it is now impossible to eradicate the problem. They have ironically become "The Untouchables" (used to be the cops that once prided themselves with this label?).

 

 

CowTao, you are quite right. There is organized crime in every corner of the world.

 

To the person that claims Europe doesn't have high crime ghettos, have you ever been there? Maybe you mean that the central cities of European Metropolises are generally high wealth and that the suburbs can be quite scary... whereas the average American city center is quite scary and the suburbs rich and white??

 

There is generally less violent crime in Europe compared with America. And many Asian cities are very, very safe.

 

But there is crime everywhere. The funny thing is, people often tend to ignore crime if its committed by a white guy in an expensive suit

[RongzomFan]

Wait till you grow up a bit and learn more about this country, and the world. You're going to laugh that you ever said this, and be quite embarrassed.

 

Living longer and healthier is not enough justification for being a slave to corporations and banks. Wake up and see how we are constantly bombarded with advertisements of what we need, what we crave. Our economy thrives on consumerism and we are simply units in an economic equation. Consumerism thrives off of desire. How can you pretend to understand Buddhism and see capitalism as something good that works? Half of this country are on anti-depressants and divorce rates are through the roof. People aren't happy. There is something fundamentally wrong with how this country is operated and its expressed in the psyche of its people. If capitalism worked here, as you say, then people would be happy. Instead the people are hooked on drugs, legal or illegal, to cope with their slavish existence.

 

 

This is ridiculous!

Edited April 24, 2010 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

Yea, fuck American poor, right? Fuck the lazy bastards.

 

 

Yea, fuck the freedom of the internet, being free of kidnapping, being free to practice taoism or buddhism. Lets just adopt communism and makes everyone poor LOL

 

Even till this day, the chinese olympic competitors are picked from their families at age 5 and never see them again.

 

BTW, where is the Panchen Lama?

Edited April 24, 2010 by alwayson

[Enishi]

I believe that decentralized freedom which lacks artificial controls is King.

 

However, I also think that these Capitalism vs. Communism debates tend to get very lost in a maze where ideals cannot be distinguished from current reality.

 

If we define Capitalism as a system of total freedom, it has NEVER existed. Certain industries are VERY regulated, and big businesses played a major part in the lobbying for said regulations, as it can make it too costly for the smaller businesses to compete. Other aspects of capitalism, like corporations having the rights of persons, banks charging interest, or absentee landowners who charge large rent fees from the people who actually live and work on the land (and thus should in essence be the true 'owners') possibly wouldn't exist without the government protecting these elements from the peasant pitchforks.

Edited April 24, 2010 by Enishi

[Sunya]

Yea, fuck the freedom of the internet, being free of kidnapping, being free to practice taoism or buddhism. Lets just adopt communism and makes everyone poor LOL

 

Even till this day, the chinese olympic competitors are picked from their families at age 5 and never see them again.

 

BTW, where is the Panchen Lama?

 

You're not really good at debating, alwayson. I suggest you take a logic class and more philosophy classes. You're not hearing what anyone is saying and are stuck in your own loop of biased views. For the 5th time, China is totalitarian not communist.

[S-Curve]

Yea, fuck the freedom of the internet, being free of kidnapping, being free to practice taoism or buddhism. Lets just adopt communism and makes everyone poor LOL

 

Even till this day, the chinese olympic competitors are picked from their families at age 5 and never see them again.

 

BTW, where is the Panchen Lama?

 

 

Hey Alwayson. You give the impression that you are an inexperienced, sheltered and ignorant teenager.

 

You have no shame, i wish you luck in your journey because you will need it.

[Apech]

OK just want to say this - I haven't read anything that defends communism on this thread just attempts by some of us to put it into context. The way I see it is that communism is part of mankind's social evolution and has to be understood as such. Obviously the actual examples of communist states are not perfect and indeed are not real communism but attempts to work towards such an ideal state.

 

There seems to be a tendency to make this equation; capitalism = freedom, communism = bondage. As people interested in Taoism and spirituality we are (I would say) all interested in personal freedom. Also we think that knowing ourselves will lead to this kind of freedom which is perhaps more a mode of being than a physical fact. For instance we could be in a physical prison but because of our liberated consciousness still feel (and be) free. We would all also (I would think) prefer a society which allows us the personal freedom to think as we wish and to practice our own form of mysticism without persecution. Beyond that I think we would all find it a very poor society which acts so as to prevent personal freedom of expression. This is a kind liberal-ism ... if you doubt this here is the definition of liberal from the on-line etymological dictionary:

 

liberal (adj.)

late 14c., from O.Fr. liberal "befitting free men, noble, generous," from L. liberalis "noble, generous," lit. "pertaining to a free man," from liber "free," from PIE base *leudheros (cf. Gk. eleutheros "free"), probably originally "belonging to the people" (though the precise semantic development is obscure), from *leudho- "people" (cf. O.C.S. ljudu, Lith. liaudis, O.E. leod, Ger. Leute "nation, people").

 

 

Oddly a lot of US style Republicans would object to the world liberal ... even though they go on at great length about freedom. This shows how slippery these terms become in the hands of politicians.

 

Capitalism does not mean freedom or a free society because it has a technical meaning which is this - the system in which the means of production (traditionally land and factories and so on - as well as the funding mechanisms that support them) is owned privately. In this system an individual offers their labour power in return for wages but the profits of the enterprise go to the owners. That's it - that's all capitalism as developed in the industrial revolution really means. Everything else we say about it is really about how this system works out in practice. It does not have personal freedom built into it in any way, in fact for most people it is a question of being a wage slave through which the whole of your life is shaped and by the fact that the company owns you. Very few capitalists are like Bill Gates, most are corporate workers who pretend to have entrepreneurial skills and are not necessarily free. They tend to be products of the corporate culture repeating the slogans which the company feeds them but quite often framed in terms of 'creativity' , 'thinking outside the box' and all that stuff.

 

Equally I would imagine, and I stand to be corrected by those in the know, those who live in a communist state who want to succeed probably have to be signed up party members. This puts them in the same category as the company man. If they have freedom then it is in secret.

 

So actually, as a mystic, I want a society which leaves me alone as much as possible but because I believe in compassion which also helps the vulnerable, the sick, the elderly and so on. I would also like the government to keep the economy on an even keel so I am not thrown into destitution and can feed myself. Its very hard, I believe, for those who find themselves in the midst of turbulent change, to continue to do spiritual work.

 

Just some thoughts

 

Cheers

 

John

[RongzomFan]

Hey Alwayson. You give the impression that you are an inexperienced, sheltered and ignorant teenager.

 

You have no shame, i wish you luck in your journey because you will need it.

 

 

Defending communism is worse than defending Nazism....maybe you are the one without any shame?

 

Defending repeated genocides....You are sick and twisted.

Edited April 24, 2010 by alwayson

[Sunya]

Defending communism is worse than defending Nazism....maybe you are the one without any shame?

 

Defending repeated genocides....You are sick and twisted.

 

Wow. :lol:

 

Last time I'm saying this...

 

A TRUE COMMUNIST STATE NEVER EXISTED. USSR WAS TOTALITARIAN NOT COMMUNIST.

 

Did you get it this time?

[Sunya]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFxYyXGMfZM

[RongzomFan]

 

The problem with communism, is that you can NEVER get to the final stage of actual communism. China is not really communist. The Soviets were not really communist. Totalitarian YES. I remember writing papers on this stuff in school

 

 

 

mikaelz, maybe you should stop ripping off of my thoughts.

 

Read MY quote here from page 1.

Edited April 24, 2010 by alwayson