bagua from a dvd

[Ramon25]

I know, I know. Everyone heres thinks to get the most out of it you need to train with a teacher. I really cant. I know someone will say to train with a teacher but I reapeat I CANT. With that said I want to learn the style. I am not interested in perfecting the art or gaining a bunch of martial power. I just want the meditative, CHI and health aspects of Even if I cant maximize those I am sure some will come. These is the style, ithttp://www.wle.com//store/wlv_bagua.html.

 

It is slow and medatative not fast and powerful. Easier not to make a mistake.

really my question is this. If I am lets say 90% on form doing well without much noticible msitake will i still gain some benfit. AND If i am not %100 perfect will it mess up my chi or something like that?

[Sloppy Zhang]

The thing with practicing on your own and learning from a DVD is that it requires, in my humble opinion, MORE work than if you are studying with a teacher. You have to learn, then be able to correct yourself.

 

So I would say go ahead and do it, but keep some stuff in mind:

 

Don't be too rigid in your practice, meaning, well, always assume you are doing something wrong, and that you are going to have to change something. Re-read or re-watch your material, constantly. The more you read stuff the more you will remember it and the more likely you are to not forget the details. You'd be surprised how you think you know something well, practice isn't working out great, then you reread something and realized you remembered it wrong the first time through- so reading it or watching it over and over is a must.

 

Try to treat everything lightly- the lighter you treat something, the easier it is to change bad habits and let them go. People who take themselves too seriously and are too tightly wound to change mistakes, or admit that they have any, are always slow to change, so if you can have an attitude of "I can change if I want, whatever", the better- heck, bagua is all about change anyway!

 

Relax, stick with the basics, and have fun

[Ramon25]

appreciate it the response man! So do you mean that I should not think that I am constantly doing something wrong?

 

Also doing it wont mess my chi up if it isnt %100 perfect right?

[Gerard]

Zai jian.

Edited April 26, 2010 by durkhrod chogori

[Ramon25]

Nothings impossible. To me its more about whats going on inside as I do this abberation, than about performing this art eactly the way some person thinks it should be done. All i wanted to know know was the questions I asked, although I do appreciate your response. Plus How do You know I will gain NO benefit? thats like saying wushu has NO benfit. And for the record, I want learn simply what the DVD has to teach, nothing more nothing less.

Edited April 23, 2010 by Ramon25

[Martial Development]

Martial arts are too complicated to learn by yourself. Doing them slowly or "in a meditative fashion" is not a solution.

 

Now, if you think that doing it wrong is better than not doing it at all--and don't kid yourself, if you refuse a teacher, then this is exactly the choice in front of you--then go ahead. It won't "mess up your chi," but when you finally do get serious about learning someday, you'll spend two months unlearning rubbish for every one you previously spent accumulating it.

 

There are plenty of simple qigong sets that are unrelated to martial arts. Or you could learn just one standing posture and one sitting posture, which is already enough to keep you busy for 2-4 hours daily. If you need movement too, join a rec league sports team.

[That Guy]

I would say take this time to condition your body, get stronger, get flexible. Also do some stuff from the DVD but dont expect that you can apply it in real life situations successfully if you havent actually sparred or tested the techniques on colleagues who really put them to the test. Basically Prepare yourself for future training with a teacher.

 

and ignore the negativity of durkhrod chogori, hes just being an emotinal vampire (jk with you durkhy my friend).

[Gerard]

.

Edited April 26, 2010 by durkhrod chogori

[markern]

I think bagua and tai chi are way too complicated to learn from a DVD. Even though I learn tai chi from a teacher it will take ages for me to really start to move correctly. There are plety of very simple qigong sets that can be learnt from DVD though. Primordial qigong is very powerful, very balancing, grounding and easy to learn. It also moves you in a circle sort of so maybe it will have some of what atracts you to bagua. Maybe in your situation with kundalini this form is not what you need as it can be quite powerfull but it is very balancing and especially balances heaven and earth so it might also be very good for you.

[Ramon25]

Thanks guys for all the responses. But again i am not trying to master this art, I could care less about that, really. I dont want to apply it in real life, I practice plenty for that already seperatley. I dont "want" to do this martial art in a meditative fashion, the dvd form is slow thats all. Has anyone even looked at the dvd previews? again PLEASE READ this I DONT WANT TO MASTER the art. I am not interested in that, I do alot of stuff already! Qi gung, zhan zhuang, inner smile, martial arts ect... But bagua calls my attention, I ONLY want the MEDITATIVE aspects and health benfits of the the exercise portion. If I do get chi benefits thats great, I do think I will get some of the chi benefits even if its not all. So lets say I do make small mistakes and it isnt perfect, then I will be doing what bruce li said, adding what is essentially mine. I find it hard to believe that having a good understanding of chi myself, having a good understanding of martial arts and having a good instructional dvd, that I WILL GAIN ABSOLULEY NO BENEFIT? COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME? REALLY?

[markern]

Could you get to a bagua workshop somehow. Even if you don`t have teacher at hand learning in workshops from time to time would help a lot.

 

You could also videotape your practice and post it somewhere online and link to it here in a post and ask bagua people here to comment on your moves.

[Soar]

If I am lets say 90% on form doing well without much noticible msitake will i still gain some benfit.

Simple answer is maybe. But your question depends on who is observing. A dance choregrapher for example would notice how well you copy the movement aesthetically and I think to score 90% in his opinion would still be difficult if you are self taught from a video. A novice ba gua teacher would see you copying the aesthetic form well but on basic body mechanics that actually matter, like how well your body moves as one, how rooted you are, on lots of subtle alignments, you are going to score way less than 90%. If a ba gua master gave you a 1% score I'd be happy for you.

 

Whats difficult to impossible to learn from a video are the subtle physical alignments and internal components and these are what will give you benefits beyond just doing something meditatively.

 

 

If i am not %100 perfect will it mess up my chi or something like that?

You may just end up with some nice moves and happily walk around doing your own meditation thing then who knows what you are really doing and what the benefits or risks are.

 

As for learning ba gua you will unavoidably develop bad habits if you keep practising without guidance for a longer time with varying consequences. For example, you probably will not have or learn the basic physical alignments needed that allow you to drop your chi somewhat and end up stirring up more and more chi without a way to ground it or keep it smooth. This can feel good at the time and people carry on and put more and more into practising this way but it leads to problems. Even with a good teacher this is difficult to learn in ba gua.

 

More problems arise when people try to apply the techniques that make internal arts what they are. Someone learns some basic moves more or less well and then reads about intention techniques and how to move your chi etc and tries to apply these. But this is where initial instruction to get started the right way and continious reality checks from teachers are really needed. You just dont get a felt sense experience from a video and thats exactly what you need to learn ba gua. If people try by themselves I think most give up after trying and not getting much reward, some may carry on doing some kind of practise that is not really ba gua but has some benefit for them and probably some minor negative effects, some carry on and get more and more lost in fantasies and the problems that entails and those that push things too much can mess things up in a major way.

 

By the way, just going to a one off workshop or 1hr class occasionally with a good teacher can make a big difference. At least you get an initial reality check and the chance to get some felt experience of what internal martial arts are like.

Edited April 23, 2010 by Soar

[Ramon25]

Simple answer is maybe. But your question depends on who is observing. A dance choregrapher for example would notice how well you copy the movement aesthetically and I think to score 90% in his opinion would still be difficult if you are self taught from a video. A novice ba gua teacher would see you copying the aesthetic form well but on basic body mechanics that actually matter, like how well your body moves as one, how rooted you are, on lots of subtle alignments, you are going to score way less than 90%. If a ba gua master gave you a 1% score I'd be happy for you.

 

Whats difficult to impossible to learn from a video are the subtle physical alignments and internal components and these are what will give you benefits beyond just doing something meditatively.

 

 

 

You may just end up with some nice moves and happily walk around doing your own meditation thing then who knows what you are really doing and what the benefits or risks are.

 

As for learning ba gua you will unavoidably develop bad habits if you keep practising without guidance for a longer time with varying consequences. For example, you probably will not have or learn the basic physical alignments needed that allow you to drop your chi somewhat and end up stirring up more and more chi without a way to ground it or keep it smooth. This can feel good at the time and people carry on and put more and more into practising this way but it leads to problems. Even with a good teacher this is difficult to learn in ba gua.

 

More problems arise when people try to apply the techniques that make internal arts what they are. Someone learns some basic moves more or less well and then reads about intention techniques and how to move your chi etc and tries to apply these. But this is where initial instruction to get started the right way and continious reality checks from teachers are really needed. You just dont get a felt sense experience from a video and thats exactly what you need to learn ba gua. If people try by themselves I think most give up after trying and not getting much reward, some may carry on doing some kind of practise that is not really ba gua but has some benefit for them and probably some minor negative effects, some carry on and get more and more lost in fantasies and the problems that entails and those that push things too much can mess things up in a major way.

 

By the way, just going to a one off workshop or 1hr class occasionally with a good teacher can make a big difference. At least you get an initial reality check and the chance to get some felt experience of what internal martial arts are like.

 

Exactly what i needed, thank you

 

Just to be sure though, In zhan Zhuang to align yourself right you tuck the tail bone like pulling it towrds the ground, stanf up str8 and feel like a cord is pulling your head up right?

Edited April 23, 2010 by Ramon25

[Ramon25]

What about this? http://www.amazon.com/Wild-Goose-III-Kunlun-Intermediate/dp/B0007IGVR6

[Sloppy Zhang]

I find it ridiculous how much hype people give to the IMA, that they are some kind of highly spiritual near magical supernatural skills that can only be cultivated in a certain way and if you do them wrong you will be doomed to failure and rejection for the next 10,000 lifetimes.

 

Seriously.

 

Taiji came from a highly experienced martial artist who began to study the human body, and how the body can move naturally and in the most efficient way possible to defeat someone without injuring your own body or doing techniques which will deteriorate your body.

 

The origins of bagua are quite mysterious, but as a daoist internal art, it's safe to say that many techniques in bagua were derived from stillness, listening to the body, observing how the body can move, observing where energy flows most naturally, and moving in such as way as to harness the way the body naturally moves to an effective fighting system.

 

So, what does this mean? It means that if you shut down your rational mind with all the doubts, get rid of all your egotistical preconceived notion about what a badass you are and how you can learn it all on your own, get rid of the preconceived notions of how badass IMA are and how impossible they are to learn, you relax, stick with the basics, listen to your body, and experiment enough, you WILL get it.

 

That said, I highly recommend "Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body" by B.K. Frantzis, as well as "Relaxing Into Your Being" and "The Great Stillness" (The Great Stillness teaches a basic circle walking routine, and Relaxing into your being gives you the foundation for that). All of the books introduce you to Daoist principles which are present in pretty much all the internal martial arts- if you understand those methods, then when you go to learn bagua from a DVD you won't just be learning the technique, and you can incorporate some background knowledge.

 

Learn the basics, and read read read read read. Read everything. There is so much material on the internal martial arts, both for free on the internet and in book form. With a lot of reading and even more amounts of practice, you can get it done.

 

If you are interested in yin style baguazhang, He Jinbao, a lineage holder, has a good website here with excellent articles on how one progresses in the training of yin style bagua here: http://www.yinstylebaguazhang.com/

 

They have a youtube page here: http://www.youtube.com/user/YSBinternational

 

You can buy a DVD set of different animal forms here: http://traditionalstudies.org/Store/YSB_8_Animals.html

 

He Jinbao recommends you start with the Lion system as the base, as that's easier to learn because it is the most overtly physical.

 

 

Don't know about any other bagua or IMA products, but those are the ones I'd recommend, and you can do it!

[Ramon25]

I find it ridiculous how much hype people give to the IMA, that they are some kind of highly spiritual near magical supernatural skills that can only be cultivated in a certain way and if you do them wrong you will be doomed to failure and rejection for the next 10,000 lifetimes.

 

Seriously.

 

Taiji came from a highly experienced martial artist who began to study the human body, and how the body can move naturally and in the most efficient way possible to defeat someone without injuring your own body or doing techniques which will deteriorate your body.

 

The origins of bagua are quite mysterious, but as a daoist internal art, it's safe to say that many techniques in bagua were derived from stillness, listening to the body, observing how the body can move, observing where energy flows most naturally, and moving in such as way as to harness the way the body naturally moves to an effective fighting system.

 

So, what does this mean? It means that if you shut down your rational mind with all the doubts, get rid of all your egotistical preconceived notion about what a badass you are and how you can learn it all on your own, get rid of the preconceived notions of how badass IMA are and how impossible they are to learn, you relax, stick with the basics, listen to your body, and experiment enough, you WILL get it.

 

That said, I highly recommend "Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body" by B.K. Frantzis, as well as "Relaxing Into Your Being" and "The Great Stillness" (The Great Stillness teaches a basic circle walking routine, and Relaxing into your being gives you the foundation for that). All of the books introduce you to Daoist principles which are present in pretty much all the internal martial arts- if you understand those methods, then when you go to learn bagua from a DVD you won't just be learning the technique, and you can incorporate some background knowledge.

 

Learn the basics, and read read read read read. Read everything. There is so much material on the internal martial arts, both for free on the internet and in book form. With a lot of reading and even more amounts of practice, you can get it done.

 

If you are interested in yin style baguazhang, He Jinbao, a lineage holder, has a good website here with excellent articles on how one progresses in the training of yin style bagua here: http://www.yinstylebaguazhang.com/

 

They have a youtube page here: http://www.youtube.com/user/YSBinternational

 

You can buy a DVD set of different animal forms here: http://traditionalstudies.org/Store/YSB_8_Animals.html

 

He Jinbao recommends you start with the Lion system as the base, as that's easier to learn because it is the most overtly physical.

 

 

Don't know about any other bagua or IMA products, but those are the ones I'd recommend, and you can do it!

 

 

Thank you I need that TOO! HAHA, I will look into all resources, Can you check out The dvd resource I posted, they have previews and tell me what you think if possible? Your right though read A bunch of books on bagua, watch the dvd and practive, videotape myslef asked for critque and practice then read some more.

[Soar]

Exactly what i needed, thank you

 

Just to be sure though, In zhan Zhuang to align yourself right you tuck the tail bone like pulling it towrds the ground, stanf up str8 and feel like a cord is pulling your head up right?

What about this? http://www.amazon.co...e/dp/B0007IGVR6

 

I dont know anything about that dvd, I recommend the same books as sloppy. They will answer your zhan zhuang question as well. You dont stand up straight, your knees should be bent a little but not too much and the tailbone is tucked a little but some people tuck it too much, it's better not to think of pulling it toward the ground too much but rather allow it to drop as your body relaxes etc. Its difficult to give advice without seeing you, better to get a more complete overview than just a few sentences on a forum so have a look at that book if you can. I'm not recommending practising without a teacher though or at least without intending to start classes in the near future. I started of with Opening the Energy Gates and some videos and practised for a month or so before starting classes. Funnily enough I wanted to start with chi gung, tai chi and ba gua classes and my teacher wouldnt let me start ba gua for years. I was a bit upset because ba gua sounded so exciting but soon forgot about it when tai chi starting really working.

Edited April 23, 2010 by Soar

[Sloppy Zhang]

Thank you I need that TOO! HAHA, I will look into all resources, Can you check out The dvd resource I posted, they have previews and tell me what you think if possible? Your right though read A bunch of books on bagua, watch the dvd and practive, videotape myslef asked for critque and practice then read some more.

 

I can't really comment on the other DVD's, I'm just not familiar enough with their styles.

 

Two youtube users have uploaded some videos of them practicing techniques from the lion bagua dvd:

 

BaguaJunkie

 

artemus18

 

So that can give you some idea of what the forms look like.

[Gerard]

.

Edited April 26, 2010 by durkhrod chogori

[Ramon25]

Hold on man your assuming WAY too much. How do you know a dvd wont show body mechanics and alignment or that a book wont? Your just assuming it wont happned, that it cant, That attitude is not a very healthy one when it comes to evaluating something.Your wrong man period. A book or dvd MIGHT teach both, there are some reputable teachers who have produced both forms of media. Yang jwing ming has produced a dvd on bagua, I am sure he wouldnt half ass it. My point is your making an assertion when you cant my brother.

[Gerard]

.

Edited April 26, 2010 by durkhrod chogori

[lifeforce]

As others have mentioned, you could learn a decent qigong/neigong set from a book or dvd, such as Ba Duan Jin, Xing Yi Nei Gong etc etc or even some Baguazhang specific qigong.

The problem with learning decent internal martial arts is that there are a LOT of bad teachers out there. Way too much new agey crap. Don't limit yourself to IMA.

You could supplement any self taught qigong with a solid 'external' art such as wing chun, choy le fut, hung gar, mantis, traditional karate etc etc. Not that I'm suggesting that there aren't any bad teachers in the externals, but they may be easier to spot.

[Ya Mu]

I know, I know. Everyone heres thinks to get the most out of it you need to train with a teacher. I really cant. I know someone will say to train with a teacher but I reapeat I CANT. With that said I want to learn the style. I am not interested in perfecting the art or gaining a bunch of martial power. I just want the meditative, CHI and health aspects of Even if I cant maximize those I am sure some will come. These is the style, ithttp://www.wle.com//store/wlv_bagua.html.

 

It is slow and medatative not fast and powerful. Easier not to make a mistake.

really my question is this. If I am lets say 90% on form doing well without much noticible msitake will i still gain some benfit. AND If i am not %100 perfect will it mess up my chi or something like that?

 

Disclaimer - I am not a bagua teacher or practitioner.

But I will share with you a couple of things that may apply.

First, I won't say you will get no benefit from a DVD; after all, I sell a DVD on qigong movements. What I find is folks who learn from the DVD say things like - Wow, I feel the energy SO much with these moves. So they do them for a year and then decide to take my workshop. Then, after the workshop it's like Now these moves are on a lot higher a level, I feel the qi much stronger!

So, what has happened? Is it that they were not doing the moves "right" from the DVD?

 

I decided to learn Hsing I. The first 5 moves - if you look at them on a dvd, your mind may say, Oh I can learn those in a couple of weeks and have them down pat in a couple of months. If you did it this way would you get no benefit? Well, I practiced these with my teacher until I had them down - I thought - in about 3 months. But teacher would say No you are NOT doing Hsing I. It took 3 years before I was actually doing Hsing I with these moves.

So, did I get benefit from the first moves when I was replicating the move but was not doing Hsing I?

 

Well far from that. It's all about correct body mechanics and a video or a book won't show you that. Neither will they give you Qi transmission if you happen to learn from a high level teacher.

 

Yes. There is an entire different oral, shown, and energetic tradition that only face-to-face can accomplish. The written (and now video) tradition can only show a part of the whole. This same concept applies to qigong as well as MA. A person cannot understand this aspect until they have personal experience with it. The energy transmission can be very powerful and fully life-changing.

Edited April 24, 2010 by Ya Mu

[Ramon25]

Can't you find a good teacher instead of arguing with me. I am assuming nothing. You are approaching this art with the beginner's mind. You have no idea about the complexity of Bagua, thinking you can learn it from a DVD.

 

If you still go ahead you will only learn "junk Baguazhang", with little benefit.

 

 

Let me quote, Xie Peiqi lineage holder of "Yin Fu" style Bagua:

 

SECRETS IN BAGUAZHANG

 

There are no secrets in Baguazhang, your level depends only on how diligent and how hard you practice and if you have a competent teacher. Some tips that advanced practitioners can find useful and apply to their practice will not be understood by beginners.

 

Does he mention DVDs?

 

But let me tell you something, him and many other teachers sell DVDs because it's good money and the Chinese can provide to their families with easy earned money, but deep down they know that what they sell on a tape is half-baked bread, or even less than that.

 

Give it up, boy!

 

 

See the thing you havent understood is that I am not trying to master bagua. I am not worried about that. Ofcourse a traditional teacher is not going to say to learn from a dvd in a quote like that becuase he could just aswell mean that a bad teacher selling dvds wont do you any good. That qoute says nothing of whether or not a dvd should be used. In my honest and respectful opinion, your brainwashed beause you believe only one thing and will except no other option. But hey im usre you have your reasons, I for one agree with sloppy zhang. Thanks eryone for yur responses

[Martial Development]

See the thing you havent understood is that I am not trying to master bagua. I am not worried about that. Ofcourse a traditional teacher is not going to say to learn from a dvd in a quote like that becuase he could just aswell mean that a bad teacher selling dvds wont do you any good. That qoute says nothing of whether or not a dvd should be used. In my honest and respectful opinion, your brainwashed beause you believe only one thing and will except no other option. But hey im usre you have your reasons, I for one agree with sloppy zhang. Thanks eryone for yur responses

 

So you started this thread asking for advice about Bagua, and two days later, you're already qualified to give it?

 

Can You Learn Martial Arts From a Book or DVD?