Having children and reincarnation

[alexandrov]

i have been thinking recently about having kids. not that im gona have any any time soon or anything, but i have been thinking more along the lines of the reprecussions of having kids. I have found that many of the rather ascetic or austere practices that may have spiritual benefit often are very materially/societally impractical or have some "material" reprecussions. For example long term semen retention is sometimes known to cause the retraction of the genital organs into the body......possibly permanently, and it may take away some of the male seondary sex characteristics if practiced to the extreme level. being vegetarian or avoiding certain foods (im thinking spicy mainly) may make your chakras glow brighter or whatever and you might have more pure chi, but often can lead to other imbalances like weak digestive fire, and weak kidney yang, lack of fat soluble vitamins etc etc. These kind of practices may benefit some people in certain situations but probably lead to more problems especially if practiced by ordinary people. For the common man with too little time to devote to serious spiritual practice the middle way seems to be best in almost all areas of life (this has been my own experience). If one has proper instruction from a real teacher and has the time and willpower to devote themselvs to rather austere practices and such practices do not put too much stress on the mind and body then what i have said may be invalid in such situations.

 

Now my point here is this I dont want to have kids, because im too lazy and dont have the resources, but but if having kids conferrs some sort of material "spiritual" advantage such as being able to be reborn as one of your descendants than i may consider it. i dont want to end up being the guy who didnt end up having kids and reincarnated as an ant or whatever because i didnt create a "material" line so to speak to come back to. just an idea i dont know how valid it is.

 

I think being ascetic for the sake of being overly ascetic or trying to seek some kind of spiritual benefit from it is generally to be avoided by ordinary folk. I know people who have screwed up their health, social lives, etc etc because they try to be more spiritual and they were not ready, did not have the time, could not cope with the stress etc.

 

So the question is kids? have em or not?

 

and why???

[goldisheavy]

Now my point here is this I dont want to have kids, because im too lazy and dont have the resources, but but if having kids conferrs some sort of material "spiritual" advantage such as being able to be reborn as one of your descendants than i may consider it. i dont want to end up being the guy who didnt end up having kids and reincarnated as an ant or whatever because i didnt create a "material" line so to speak to come back to. just an idea i dont know how valid it is.

 

This is absolutely crazy thinking.

 

First of all, there is no guarantee that if you have kids you'll be reborn as one of their descendants. That's not how reincarnation generally works.

 

Secondly, you have a lot of hubris, and in your hubris, you imagine that being your own descendant is a plus. In fact, being your own descendant can be a negative. What if you become a descendant in someone else's family, and that family is a family of enlightened people? Wouldn't that be better? Why would you forgo that simply out of pride for your own bloodline?

 

You worry about becoming an ant too much. That's just a superstition.

 

When you dream, are you an ant in your dreams? No? Then you are not likely to be reborn as an ant. Unless you become obsessed with being reborn as an ant, you won't be.

 

Rebirth is not a punishment. It's not like some God hands down rebirths based on what you deserve. It's nothing like that.

 

Being reborn is no different than walking down the city streets. You go where you turn. If you turn left, you go to the street on your left. The fact that you end up on that street is not a punishment from outside! You went there yourself! Rebirth is like that too. Rebirth is what happens due to your own volition and it reflects your will.

 

OK, so why do sages warn about being reborn in hell? Simple -- many people want to go to hell without knowing it. Many people have contradictory desires, and if you cling to both contradictory desires very strongly, you create hell. So it's not that it's an external punishment, it's just that some people unwittingly use their own volition to will hell upon themselves.

 

So what you should be worried about is this unwitting-ness. You should become more and more aware of what it is you really want and why. This will prevent any kind of "hell" surprise from happening to you.

[fizix]

Wow are you being serious right now?

 

edit: more constructively I guess: you really need to reexamine...reevaluate your 'values' IMHO as your current train of thought is in no way a spiritual one, but perhaps ego-fueled pseudo/illusory spiritual, and will only lead you to places you ultimately do not want to be.

 

May the force be with you.

Edited April 23, 2010 by fizix

[hagar]

This is probably a little trite but here goes:

 

The question you pose reveals a little bag of hidden agendas, like trying to control your reincarnation, and using a blood line to attempt to do so. I'll leave it at this: The only reason valid for choosing to have kids is that you place your kids before yourself, meaning they are more important than you. Basically, you should want to give not gain by having kids. There is nothing really to gain. Its pure sacrifice.

 

1. Having kids in a modern society is about as challenging and thus great vehicle for spiritual practice as one can place oneself in. If I would evaluate what was the most difficult; a. being a reculse eating roots and pine seeds alone in the mountains for 20 years,or b. being a parent in Oslo, my guess would be b. Its Bootcamp.

2. You dont have to worry about the effects of cultivation on your reproductive capacity, nor about your karmic strains. Both are a matter of heresay and belief, not experience.

3. Most people who do have kids didn't plan to, and most who dont have kids whish the had some. But most importantly, being a parent is something granted to you by the universe. We really only give or time to them (or not) and they are on loan.

4. Being present when a child is born is as close you'll ever be to both death and life.

5. Your life is forever changed when you have one, and your old life is gone. period. You'll never have a worry-free day for the rest of your life. But its worth it.

 

That said, I don't know if I'm any happier as a parent than without kids. But probably I've wised up abit.

 

h

Edited April 23, 2010 by hagar

[~jK~]

So the question is kids? have em or not?

Evolution proves reincarnation. Survival information is passed down in genetic code.

As such - you will be creating your own heaven or hell in how you raise your children.

 

This is the Tao.

 

~jK~

[alexandrov]

This is absolutely crazy thinking.

 

First of all, there is no guarantee that if you have kids you'll be reborn as one of their descendants. That's not how reincarnation generally works.

 

Secondly, you have a lot of hubris, and in your hubris, you imagine that being your own descendant is a plus. In fact, being your own descendant can be a negative. What if you become a descendant in someone else's family, and that family is a family of enlightened people? Wouldn't that be better? Why would you forgo that simply out of pride for your own bloodline?

 

You worry about becoming an ant too much. That's just a superstition.

 

When you dream, are you an ant in your dreams? No? Then you are not likely to be reborn as an ant. Unless you become obsessed with being reborn as an ant, you won't be.

 

Rebirth is not a punishment. It's not like some God hands down rebirths based on what you deserve. It's nothing like that.

 

Being reborn is no different than walking down the city streets. You go where you turn. If you turn left, you go to the street on your left. The fact that you end up on that street is not a punishment from outside! You went there yourself! Rebirth is like that too. Rebirth is what happens due to your own volition and it reflects your will.

 

OK, so why do sages warn about being reborn in hell? Simple -- many people want to go to hell without knowing it. Many people have contradictory desires, and if you cling to both contradictory desires very strongly, you create hell. So it's not that it's an external punishment, it's just that some people unwittingly use their own volition to will hell upon themselves.

 

So what you should be worried about is this unwitting-ness. You should become more and more aware of what it is you really want and why. This will prevent any kind of "hell" surprise from happening to you.

 

ok ok its not that i would want to be one of my own descendants and more importantly let me state that i do not believe in the above theory about being reborn as one of my own descendants, its just a thought/question i have about the possibilities of reincarnation. I am not worried about becoming an ant per say that was just an example. the last part of your statement seems to reflect the tibetan buddhism theory on reincarnation ie tibetan book of the dead??

 

 

Wow are you being serious right now?

 

edit: more constructively I guess: you really need to reexamine...reevaluate your 'values' IMHO as your current train of thought is in no way a spiritual one, but perhaps ego-fueled pseudo/illusory spiritual, and will only lead you to places you ultimately do not want to be.

 

May the force be with you.

 

look im just proposing an IDEA, i dont believe in it, its just an idea i had, that i wanted some input on thats all. It just makes some sense to me that because people are so attached to their families and own bodies that they may try to take rebirth in their own bloodline. It could also make sense this way because your bloodline "karma" would be based on how well you raise your kids and also how much wealth you leave with them because that is your work and doing. again just an idea and i wanted input on it

 

ok if you want to come in here and tell me about my train of thought and worldview based on a few small paragraphs that I wrote in a semi-sarcastic way then i might, again might, because i dont know much anything about you say that you jump to conclusions too quickly. Care to explain your statements? or would your rather just tell me im deluded without knowing anything about me or my worldview and leave it at that like you did? real helpful....

 

the original post i wrote is in fact written in a hurried and sarcastic manner and it is not 100% serious if you are wondering.

 

 

 

 

The question you pose reveals a little bag of hidden agendas, like trying to control your reincarnation, and using a blood line to attempt to do so. I'll leave it at this: The only reason valid for choosing to have kids is that you place your kids before yourself, meaning they are more important than you. Basically, you should want to give not gain by having kids. There is nothing really to gain. Its pure sacrifice.

 

1. Having kids in a modern society is about as challenging and thus great vehicle for spiritual practice as one can place oneself in. If I would evaluate what was the most difficult; a. being a reculse eating roots and pine seeds alone in the mountains for 20 years,or b. being a parent in Oslo, my guess would be b. Its Bootcamp.

2. You dont have to worry about the effects of cultivation on your reproductive capacity, nor about your karmic strains. Both are a matter of heresay and belief, not experience.

3. Most people who do have kids didn't plan to, and most who dont have kids whish the had some. But most importantly, being a parent is something granted to you by the universe. We really only give or time to them (or not) and they are on loan.

4. Being present when a child is born is as close you'll ever be to both death and life.

5. Your life is forever changed when you have one, and your old life is gone. period. You'll never have a worry-free day for the rest of your life. But its worth it.

 

That said, I don't know if I'm any happier as a parent than without kids. But probably I've wised up abit.

 

Thanks for this Hagar

[lifeforce]

4. Being present when a child is born is as close you'll ever be to both death and life.

 

Yes. It truly is indescribable. A moment when our true nature is revealed to us.

Beautiful.

[RyanO]

I have thought about this too from a similar perspective.

 

Basically, that our desire to have children is not just the desire for sexual experience, but to live on through them in some way.

 

I think alexandrov's ideas have real validity on a deep (possibly evolutionary) level. Though it may not be conscious for some people, I think having kids is a way for people to deal with the reality of death and achieve a kind of immortality. I'm not suggesting this is necessarily valid metaphysically speaking. But, it is possible that we have evolved a reason to have children beyond mere sexual impulse, one that stems from our fear of death and a desire for part of our spirit (or genetic information) to live on through our children.

Edited April 24, 2010 by RyanO

[三江源]

I have thought about this too from a similar perspective.

 

Basically, that our desire to have children is not just the desire for sexual experience, but to live on through them in some way.

 

I think alexandrov's ideas have real validity on a deep (possibly evolutionary) level. Though it may not be conscious for some people, I think having kids is a way for people to deal with the reality of death and achieve a kind of immortality. I'm not suggesting this is necessarily valid metaphysically speaking. But, it is possible that we have evolved a reason to have children beyond mere sexual impulse, one that stems from our fear of death and a desire for part of our spirit (or genetic information) to live on through our children.

 

I dont feel this at all. I feel it is something to do with having a huge amount to give. And then some more to give.

 

Hagar got it right. Except I'd add that I feel it is a huge massive priveledge to have children, to get the chance to feel that much love in one's heart, for life.

[RyanO]

I dont feel this at all. I feel it is something to do with having a huge amount to give. And then some more to give.

 

Hagar got it right. Except I'd add that I feel it is a huge massive priveledge to have children, to get the chance to feel that much love in one's heart, for life.

 

Interesting. This makes me wonder about gender differences with regard to children.

 

I think historically, men did have something to gain from children in the way of social status and power. Having thriving offspring was a sign of virility for the man and ensured the continued way of life for the tribe. This was probably this way for a while, hence my mention of evolutionary theory.

 

Nowadays, gender roles are more neutral and in general people are having less children, probably because children do not offer the advantages they did in past years. Thus, a more maternal motivation may be necessary.

Edited April 24, 2010 by RyanO

[alexandrov]

I have thought about this too from a similar perspective.

 

Basically, that our desire to have children is not just the desire for sexual experience, but to live on through them in some way.

 

I think alexandrov's ideas have real validity on a deep (possibly evolutionary) level. Though it may not be conscious for some people, I think having kids is a way for people to deal with the reality of death and achieve a kind of immortality. I'm not suggesting this is necessarily valid metaphysically speaking. But, it is possible that we have evolved a reason to have children beyond mere sexual impulse, one that stems from our fear of death and a desire for part of our spirit (or genetic information) to live on through our children.

 

excellent thoughts, yes you basically summed up in a way something similar to what i was trying to describe in my original post, that there may be some evolved reason, being biological or metaphysical or whatever for us to have kids that has to do with our own individual immortality.

 

 

 

I dont feel this at all. I feel it is something to do with having a huge amount to give. And then some more to give.

 

Hagar got it right. Except I'd add that I feel it is a huge massive priveledge to have children, to get the chance to feel that much love in one's heart, for life.

 

ok i know my posts come off as cold but im simply trying to look at OTHER reasons for having kids beyond the normally thought of scope. I am not denying that having children is also about giving your all to someone else, etc. I am also not saying that if i was having children myself id approach the whole manner with the kind of reasoning i am using now.

[hagar]

excellent thoughts, yes you basically summed up in a way something similar to what i was trying to describe in my original post, that there may be some evolved reason, being biological or metaphysical or whatever for us to have kids that has to do with our own individual immortality.

 

 

 

 

 

ok i know my posts come off as cold but im simply trying to look at OTHER reasons for having kids beyond the normally thought of scope. I am not denying that having children is also about giving your all to someone else, etc. I am also not saying that if i was having children myself id approach the whole manner with the kind of reasoning i am using now.

 

All I can say is that Cat probably said what was most important.

Having kids should never EVER be a means. They are a gift, and always an end in themselves.

 

Our past is fraught with cultural dogmas, unbalanced social roles, and basically, looking at having offspring as a means of providing security and social status.

 

This is not relevant in the west anymore, yet people very often have kids to "fulfill" their lives, or other more unconscious motives, like fear of abandonment, filling a void, fitting in to a social group, fear of loneliness, and most importantly, compensating for the fear of death and thus leaving no trace. So many, including people I know feel they still this fear with leaving a legacy. Which is a complete misunderstanding of legacy, but that's another story.

 

The greatest dread is annhiliation.

 

Having kids is, in a way, letting go of the fear of annhiliation.

 

h

[passenger1980]

Some random thoughts and personal opinions on these subjects :

 

1) I can't believe someone wants to have kids nowadays, to me it's just not ethical, in any way. Overpopulation is my main concern, but i also feel that the need to have a child is based on pure ego, of course every proud parent will try to disguise it. Then comes the "teaching" part, which we all know it's a failure from the start, as we all been there as sons. To me all these is further develop attachment to the world and nothing else. If you think you can handle without attachment, then you have another thing coming my friend. Adopting a child is the most noble thing one can possibly do, but that just my opinion. We won't be running out of kids anytime soon.

 

On the other hand, i can relate to how having a child becomes your priority and somehow lessens your ego driven life. You can still experience that adopting a child though.

 

2) People don't seem to understand what is karma and no self is. You are only the results and consequences of someone's else past lives's actions and thoughts. You have no relationship whatsoever from past lives except from this, there's no soul or identity that migrates from body to body. At least, this is what Buddha taught. Unwholesome deeds creates future unwholesome states, but usually it's not as clear or perfect as we could understand it or accept if with our logical yet biased mind, it's not "an eye for an eye" concept.

[RyanO]

Some random thoughts and personal opinions on these subjects :

 

1) I can't believe someone wants to have kids nowadays, to me it's just not ethical, in any way. Overpopulation is my main concern, but i also feel that the need to have a child is based on pure ego, of course every proud parent will try to disguise it. Then comes the "teaching" part, which we all know it's a failure from the start, as we all been there as sons. To me all these is further develop attachment to the world and nothing else. If you think you can handle without attachment, then you have another thing coming my friend. Adopting a child is the most noble thing one can possibly do, but that just my opinion. We won't be running out of kids anytime soon.

 

On the other hand, i can relate to how having a child becomes your priority and somehow lessens your ego driven life. You can still experience that adopting a child though.

 

2) People don't seem to understand what is karma and no self is. You are only the results and consequences of someone's else past lives's actions and thoughts. You have no relationship whatsoever from past lives except from this, there's no soul or identity that migrates from body to body. At least, this is what Buddha taught. Unwholesome deeds creates future unwholesome states, but usually it's not as clear or perfect as we could understand it or accept if with our logical yet biased mind, it's not "an eye for an eye" concept.

 

Meh. Sounds nihilistic, a temptation with Buddhism. What's so bad about the ego again? Egoic desires fuel life.

 

Have one kid (or two) with someone and no overpopulation risk, assuming everyone else does the same. That said, I understand and commend the virtues of adopting, though that's not for everyone.

[passenger1980]

Meh. Sounds nihilistic, a temptation with Buddhism. What's so bad about the ego again? Egoic desires fuel life.

 

Have one kid (or two) with someone and no overpopulation risk, assuming everyone else does the same. That said, I understand and commend the virtues of adopting, though that's not for everyone.

 

Buddha warned against nihilism (annihilation) if that's what you mean, but i guess it's the nietzschean concept. You are advocating to pursue our desires and passions and that's what basically got us here, although it's not actually bad, it's something we must experience AND overcome it to regroup and enter the next level. We can all agree that life has mundane pleasures and joys. However, anyone with some degree of spiritual development also knows that passion and desire in any form are bad at the end, because they are not the true source of happiness, they are not permanent.

 

The problem is not lying to oneself of course and force to not feel or want this, if you want and need to have kids and reproduce, well, it's your divine right of course and there could be plenty of joy, i can't deny that. It's not something horrible by any means, i love my parents and i've been blessed with their love and unconditional support since i was born. It just that some people are at different stages i guess and to me an spiritual life completely contradicts a typical family life (at least how it's set up in this world). I can also see how many proud parents can actually gain a lot of wisdom from having children.

 

However, that how monks and wise men lived across the centuries, in any religious traditions, including hermits, philosophers and mystics, not many had children...i wonder why and how they would justify their decisions. I tend to believe they felt the same way as me, but of course i'm not sure and i can't even fathom the idea of comparing myself to such wise men, haha!