The inner and the outer

[Apech]

This is a thread following on from a conversation I was having with S-curve on the Kundalini thread. Its about the external world.

 

There's a lot of talk about K and its effects in terms of one's energy or mental state. Some people find the changes, visions, energy movements that K awakening produces to be disconcerting or even frightening. Sometimes people plunge into actual mental illness or undergo long periods of discomfort caused by the blockages to the energy flow. All this is quite well documented.

 

Other people don't have any problem with all this kind of thing but their problems arise in relation to the external world, life in other words. It also seems that raising internal energy can precipitate changes in your life which can be challenging and difficult.

 

All this points to a need to achieve balance between inner and outer worlds to become whole and even perhaps get better luck and so on. There are moral teachings of course but it would be interesting to get peoples ideas on dealing with daily life especially when things seem to be against you.

 

John

[forestofclarity]

I've been carefully studying the difference between the inner and outer world as part of my practice lately. To be honest, I'm having trouble finding a dividing line between the inside and the outside if we look at our direct experience.

[hagar]

[C T]

Great topic. Would love to see more contributions!

 

For now, here's a thought: The outer are the teachings, and inner is the Teacher. When listened to, the teachings become bearably soft and harmonious, even welcomed; when ignored, the teachings become a pain in the back, a real struggle, and much aggravated aversions arise.

[Apech]

I have been thinking about the qualities of the outer world as distinct to the inner world. I can remember distinctly when quite young becoming aware of the sameness of the outer world. What I mean by this that it doesn't matter where you travel to, the highest mountain, the deepest ocean, the strangest far flung city at the edge of nowhere fundamentally everything is the same. I don't actually mean that its the same I mean that its not different. Does this make sense to anyone? I think its important.

[Birch]

It makes sense to me. As follows: It's when I start to engage deeper with the people in those settings that the trouble starts;-) Remember that Sting song (or maybe it was the Police) about how the "Russians love their children too"?

 

The deeper I go, the more and the less words simultaneously mean, the more I "get" "Kama, Artha, Dharma, and Moksha" and a whole bunch of other things.

 

The more "the world" hurts, when I know the "world" only exists as I/we have collectively decided it (and in some cases enforced on others to their detriment).

 

In practical terms, I think the change in perspective translates into everyday actions and attitudes which may or may not be actually coherent to the other people around, which is IMO where a lot of the upheaval lies. If you're referring to other effects, let me know which ones;-)

 

Another poster mentioned not being able to stand too much music or reading. I went through a phase of that, where I could not physically stand any music or movies (especially the ones with lots of violence.) I still can't stand TV. Buying clothes is a nightmare. Trying to decide what kind of work to get involved with, another nightmare. Certain people just drain me. I will often opt for solitude instead of company. Which IMO is not a good way to go either!

 

At some level, this could seem like depression, and yet I'm not depressed! I think the key is to adapt your life slowly.Just IMO.

[S-Curve]

 

But my most concrete experience is that the deeper my practice goes, the deeper the problems I face go in my outer life. The bigger the gain spiritually, the greater the challenge on an mundane level. Its quite common to be radically challenged morally when you grow spiritually. I think its a necessity.

In the same way, when you grow, what holds you back become stronger.

 

But maybe that's just me.

 

h

 

 

I really think that there is validity in this, thanks for contributing Hagar.

 

I find that the external world is sort of a testing ground. When issues arise in the internal, i often see those things reflected to the outer world.

 

The external is the proof. I mean "proof" in the sense of of the french cognate or perhaps the older British English sense... that is, to try something out.

 

For me personally, at this point in my journey, I desire to find a way to navigate the external. I want to overcome the external. The question is, can we actually do this? Or are we condemned to the capricious will of the "gods"???

[hagar]

I have been thinking about the qualities of the outer world as distinct to the inner world. I can remember distinctly when quite young becoming aware of the sameness of the outer world. What I mean by this that it doesn't matter where you travel to, the highest mountain, the deepest ocean, the strangest far flung city at the edge of nowhere fundamentally everything is the same. I don't actually mean that its the same I mean that its not different. Does this make sense to anyone? I think its important.

 

Wonderful, I know what you mean. I think Walter Benjamin, in his "On hashish in Marseille" speaks about this being high on weed, walking through the streets suddenly recognizing the direct experience of the sameness of everything.

 

I've had experiences like that, where I've felt like when I was a very small child, and all faces were the same, all humans my friend, and nothing had any apparent "separateness". It was wonderful. I think this happens when we step out of language, out of discourse. But its really a feeling of loss, of complete separation from reference, from any meta-perspective. Like being i Japan for the first time, not knowing the language nor the culture.

 

h

[hagar]

I really think that there is validity in this, thanks for contributing Hagar.

 

I find that the external world is sort of a testing ground. When issues arise in the internal, i often see those things reflected to the outer world.

 

The external is the proof. I mean "proof" in the sense of of the french cognate or perhaps the older British English sense... that is, to try something out.

 

For me personally, at this point in my journey, I desire to find a way to navigate the external. I want to overcome the external. The question is, can we actually do this? Or are we condemned to the capricious will of the "gods"???

 

I think I understand what you mean. What strikes me is that there really is no outer experience without an inner, and at the same time, there is also an experience of there being no difference between the inner space and that which is outside. This feels like aloneness. Complete desolation, yet at the same time complete intimacy.

 

h

[Apech]

 

 

In practical terms, I think the change in perspective translates into everyday actions and attitudes which may or may not be actually coherent to the other people around, which is IMO where a lot of the upheaval lies. If you're referring to other effects, let me know which ones;-)

 

Another poster mentioned not being able to stand too much music or reading. I went through a phase of that, where I could not physically stand any music or movies (especially the ones with lots of violence.) I still can't stand TV. Buying clothes is a nightmare. Trying to decide what kind of work to get involved with, another nightmare. Certain people just drain me. I will often opt for solitude instead of company. Which IMO is not a good way to go either!

 

At some level, this could seem like depression, and yet I'm not depressed! I think the key is to adapt your life slowly.Just IMO.

 

Kate, I can completely relate to what you are saying.

[Apech]

 

I've had experiences like that, where I've felt like when I was a very small child, and all faces were the same, all humans my friend, and nothing had any apparent "separateness". It was wonderful. I think this happens when we step out of language, out of discourse. But its really a feeling of loss, of complete separation from reference, from any meta-perspective. Like being i Japan for the first time, not knowing the language nor the culture.

 

h

 

yes, wonderful but also 'strange' don't you think.

[Apech]

 

I find that the external world is sort of a testing ground. When issues arise in the internal, i often see those things reflected to the outer world.

 

 

 

One of my teachers used to emphasise the world as a testing ground ... I understand this and think it is true ... and I get the often uncanny 'coincidence' between inside and outside ... but there are some things I don't 'get' about it ... I think this is just my tenancy to see the world as ... well kind of a mixture of dull and disturbing (ha ha - I'm not really as bad as this sounds) ... If you could say more S-c it would help.

[三江源]

Well, ok, I'm not going to come up with anything in this post. I just wanted to contribute..

Edited April 29, 2010 by cat

[Apech]

Cat,

 

Thanks for your contribution and I can relate to lot of what you said.

 

In short I share some of what you said and I am interested in the idea that loosening ego identity gives one issues with the world. I started to reply to more of what you said but have decided to think about it some more.

 

Thanks again

 

John

[hagar]

It makes sense to me. As follows: It's when I start to engage deeper with the people in those settings that the trouble starts;-) Remember that Sting song (or maybe it was the Police) about how the "Russians love their children too"?

 

The deeper I go, the more and the less words simultaneously mean, the more I "get" "Kama, Artha, Dharma, and Moksha" and a whole bunch of other things.

 

The more "the world" hurts, when I know the "world" only exists as I/we have collectively decided it (and in some cases enforced on others to their detriment).

 

In practical terms, I think the change in perspective translates into everyday actions and attitudes which may or may not be actually coherent to the other people around, which is IMO where a lot of the upheaval lies. If you're referring to other effects, let me know which ones;-)

 

Another poster mentioned not being able to stand too much music or reading. I went through a phase of that, where I could not physically stand any music or movies (especially the ones with lots of violence.) I still can't stand TV. Buying clothes is a nightmare. Trying to decide what kind of work to get involved with, another nightmare. Certain people just drain me. I will often opt for solitude instead of company. Which IMO is not a good way to go either!

 

At some level, this could seem like depression, and yet I'm not depressed! I think the key is to adapt your life slowly.Just IMO.

 

I think its all examples of "byproducts" of spiritual growth or maturation. There is a phase when things get very intimate, very close. I think its not that there is more problems being created as a consequence of practice, its just harder to not confront or relate to them. They are allready there, yet now they come out of hiding. And growth in one direction often creates a counter-movement from the dark side. But thats the key point; what do I do with the drama? Then it gets very real , and I think its the hardest thing in the world.

As you describe, it gets unsettling. But its necessary, yet not interesting in itself. Much like bowel movement.

 

OMG; I just reread my post.

This post suddenly led up to something constipation!!! what was I thinking...

 

h

[rain]

I think its all examples of "byproducts" of spiritual growth or maturation. There is a phase when things get very intimate, very close. I think its not that there is more problems being created as a consequence of practice, its just harder to not confront or relate to them. They are allready there, yet now they come out of hiding. And growth in one direction often creates a counter-movement from the dark side. But thats the key point; what do I do with the drama? Then it gets very real , and I think its the hardest thing in the world.

As you describe, it gets unsettling. But its necessary, yet not interesting in itself. Much like bowel movement.

 

OMG; I just reread my post.

This post suddenly led up to something constipation!!! what was I thinking...

 

h

 

ok then hagar I will come to your rescue with a post based on reading only your and the previous post...

as an excuse to interprete it in a particular direction I'v been eager to express ideas

(this ..is..as follows

 

ok;..

 

- progressing. is in itself a devious idea.

therein lies

 

my personal enlightened resonance project

please pick up the receiver

 

Edited April 28, 2010 by rain

[hagar]

ok then hagar I will come to your rescue with a post based on reading only your and the previous post...

as an excuse to interprete it in a particular direction I'v been eager to express ideas

(this ..is..as follows

 

ok;..

 

- progressing. is in itself a devious idea.

therein lies

 

my personal enlightened resonance project

please pick up the receiver

 

I got disconnected...

 

Progress is coming to terms with going backwards.

 

h

 

h

[Apech]

Rain ... Hagar ... that last exchange went completely over my head.

 

Can you explain ... please.

 

 

John

[Cueball]

There is a phase when things get very intimate, very close. I think its not that there is more problems being created as a consequence of practice, its just harder to not confront or relate to them. They are allready there, yet now they come out of hiding. And growth in one direction often creates a counter-movement from the dark side. But thats the key point; what do I do with the drama? Then it gets very real , and I think its the hardest thing in the world.

 

That's also been my experience, thank you for writing that.

 

From a non-Taoist source, but perhaps so in name only:

 

Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."

 

- The Gospel of Thomas

 

(bold mine)

Edited April 28, 2010 by Cueball

[Birch]

Dude! it just fell upon me that MAYBE Jesus actually said (and fie upon me in the past life if I got it wrong- just sinning;-))

 

"When you accept the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner"

 

However I'm starting to dig that he probably did mean "make" but to me that seems further away than our present discussion, so maybe we can leave that part till later?

[rain]

.

Edited April 29, 2010 by rain

[rain]

yes absolutely I agree absolutely

coming to terms with going backwards

 

but also in this backwards re membering of the way

let go of the grip of personal AngLe

 

I can't do it but I sure as H would recommend it

[hagar]

Rain ... Hagar ... that last exchange went completely over my head.

 

Can you explain ... please.

 

 

John

 

I really can't explain in a good way. Its just how it feels. These days I try to come to grips with the unknown.

 

Just stubled accidentally over this quote from the Tao Te Ching, chapter 41, and it just resonates , and my heart skipped a beat;

 

The wise student hears of the Tao and practices it diligently.

The average student hears of the Tao and gives it thought now and again.

The foolish student hears of the Tao and laughs aloud.

If there were no laughter, the Tao would not be what it is.

 

Hence it is said:

The bright path seems dim;

Going forward seems like retreat;

The easy way seems hard;

The highest Virtue seems empty;

Great purity seems sullied;

A wealth of Virtue seems inadequate;

The strength of Virtue seems frail;

Real Virtue seems unreal;

The perfect square has no corners;

Great talents ripen late;

The highest notes are hard to hear;

The greatest form has no shape.

The Tao is hidden and without name.

The Tao alone nourishes and brings everything to fulfillment.

[三江源]

 

The bright path seems dim;

Going forward seems like retreat;

The easy way seems hard;

The highest Virtue seems empty;

Great purity seems sullied;

A wealth of Virtue seems inadequate;

The strength of Virtue seems frail;

Real Virtue seems unreal;

The perfect square has no corners;

Great talents ripen late;

The highest notes are hard to hear;

The greatest form has no shape.

The Tao is hidden and without name.

The Tao alone nourishes and brings everything to fulfillment.

 

 

Well that's something to look forward to then..

[Cookie Monster]

.

Edited September 26, 2020 by Ocean Form