Alcohol?

[Samuel]

Hey folks!

 

Just wondering what the Taoist view on alcohol was? Is it a "Everything in moderation?" or a "Don't touch it, it's a poison" or a "Who cares so long as you have fun man?" or more of a "Up to you!". I'm in university at the moment and I have to say that the presiding opinion is "Drink as much as possible as fast as possible" and that "Larger volume of alcohol=More fun", and I'm not sure I agree. I get the impression that polluting my body probably isn't quite Taoist, but I eat far too much rubbish for that to be a concern at the moment! Since no one here seems to have heard of Taoism (shame as it is), I thought I'd ask here. Thoughts?

 

Much love people.

 

Sam

[Gerard]

Today's alcohol has got so much junk added to it that I wouldn't touch it with a 10m pole. If alcohol is already very yang imagine if you add chemicals to it, that would be too yang. Overconsumption would burn the liver and eventually will exhaust the blood and the jing.

 

If you drink pure wine as a TCM remedy it is an excellent way of removing dampness and cold as well as expelling wind and promoting circulation. Now, the wine I am talking about it is not the commercially available one but the one you brew yourself or the one sold at Chinese herb shops. For example:

 

http://www.whatsonxiamen.com/wine_msg.php?titleid=394

 

 

Shaoxing wine.

[Birch]

"There is a time for everything under the sun"

 

Or something;-)

 

As an old person not in college, I feel the best way is to be moderate. From TCM perspective, I'd be interested in what "moderate" could mean in actual units (and what kind of drink exactly)

There was a thread on it here somewhere.

 

From a neurological perspective, I suspect it takes less to drop inhibitions than we think, which seems to me to be one of the goals of drinking. I don't have the data on neurological effects but I suspect too much would affect learning (not college-friendly around exam time)

 

There are also some websites proning "harm reduction" rather than total abstinence. How you drink (and what you do when doing it, like not driving for example, or practicing safe-sex.)

 

You may also get culturally-flavoured responses;-) Given I suspect you're not sitting down with a large lunch and a glass or two of wine like is found to be acceptable in some places in Europe and a sin in some places in North America;-)

[effilang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AM4D2dnELcU

 

You'll probably get a few differing opinions on this topic.

 

Based on all the texts i've read, my conclusion is that consumption/indulgence of food/alcohol/sensory stimulus should be approached in either of the two ways:

 

1: In a predetermined manner; when there has been an established problem or goal (cause/symptoms/effect) etc.

2: Always in moderation; and let the body find it's balance naturally with time.

 

I personally favor #2 and try to maintain a balance, but as you go along you will begin to feel when something is bad for you, or if you consumed too much, or need this or that.

[fizix]

I pray for anyone who is prone to be an alcoholic; such is a disease with beyond fathomable self-destructive tendencies. Any alcoholics like to comment on the potential hells of indulging in the sacred grape? No one 'thinks' they're an alcoholic, until they've lost everything.

[Samuel]

Today's alcohol has got so much junk added to it that I wouldn't touch it with a 10m pole. If alcohol is already very yang imagine if you add chemicals to it, that would be too yang. Overconsumption would burn the liver and eventually will exhaust the blood and the jing.

 

If you drink pure wine as a TCM remedy it is an excellent way of removing dampness and cold as well as expelling wind and promoting circulation. Now, the wine I am talking about it is not the commercially available one but the one you brew yourself or the one sold at Chinese herb shops. For example:

 

http://www.whatsonxi...php?titleid=394

 

 

Shaoxing wine.

 

 

Unfortunately, I have very little idea of TCM. Is there any chance that you could reccomend a book to start with, I've always wanted to learn about TCM.

 

"There is a time for everything under the sun"

 

Or something;-)

 

As an old person not in college, I feel the best way is to be moderate. From TCM perspective, I'd be interested in what "moderate" could mean in actual units (and what kind of drink exactly)

There was a thread on it here somewhere.

 

From a neurological perspective, I suspect it takes less to drop inhibitions than we think, which seems to me to be one of the goals of drinking. I don't have the data on neurological effects but I suspect too much would affect learning (not college-friendly around exam time)

 

There are also some websites proning "harm reduction" rather than total abstinence. How you drink (and what you do when doing it, like not driving for example, or practicing safe-sex.)

 

You may also get culturally-flavoured responses;-) Given I suspect you're not sitting down with a large lunch and a glass or two of wine like is found to be acceptable in some places in Europe and a sin in some places in North America;-)

 

 

Apparently small amounts of alcohol affect learning because it dehydrates a person. We've studied the affects of alcohol on the system as part of my degree, but I'm really looking for a taoist answer. I'm from wales, so occasionally, (admittedly not very often), I do sit down to eat with wine/cider. And I never drink unless I've eaten first.

 

You'll probably get a few differing opinions on this topic.

 

Based on all the texts i've read, my conclusion is that consumption/indulgence of food/alcohol/sensory stimulus should be approached in either of the two ways:

 

1: In a predetermined manner; when there has been an established problem or goal (cause/symptoms/effect) etc.

2: Always in moderation; and let the body find it's balance naturally with time.

 

I personally favor #2 and try to maintain a balance, but as you go along you will begin to feel when something is bad for you, or if you consumed too much, or need this or that.

 

Whilst I admit that I overindulge food wise, it's usually because I prepare too much. First year cooking for myself y'see and it's not always easy to gauge. As for the alcohol, I know my limits fairly well, and always drink in moderation, having only ever once mad myself ill, an experience I'm not looking to repeat within my lifetime.

 

Thank you for your answers, have a good day folks.

 

Sam

[joeblast]

moderation also includes days - if you do have a drink or two, another drink or two the next day will have more of an effect on your qi/cultivation, even moreso on the third day. your body will use up a lot of qi in processing the alcohol. I've done it a few times in the past where I've cultivated well for a while and then had a weekend of parties, nothing excessive, but found my qi reserves to be very depleted after drinking a couple days in a row - you feel like you're starting from scratch again!?

[Samuel]

moderation also includes days - if you do have a drink or two, another drink or two the next day will have more of an effect on your qi/cultivation, even moreso on the third day. your body will use up a lot of qi in processing the alcohol. I've done it a few times in the past where I've cultivated well for a while and then had a weekend of parties, nothing excessive, but found my qi reserves to be very depleted after drinking a couple days in a row - you feel like you're starting from scratch again!?

 

This isn't likely to be a problem for me, I don't cultivate chi. Not, from choice admittedly, but because I don't know how. But should I start, I'll leave the alcohol out, me thinks.

Edited April 28, 2010 by Samuel

[joeblast]

you breathe, yes? then to some extent you cultivate, perhaps just not in a pointed manner

[Samuel]

you breathe, yes? then to some extent you cultivate, perhaps just not in a pointed manner

 

Agreed, but active cultivation is beyond me at the moment, can you suggest a resource?

[joeblast]

Investigate what's out there and find something that resonates with you, as its ultimately a personal decision best made by yourself...there's so much out there, and most if not all will provide benefit if practiced diligently!

 

TTBs is actually a decent resource in and of itself

Edited April 28, 2010 by joeblast

[sifusufi]

[Samuel]

sifusufi, thank you for your reply, but I don't think there's much chance of me dying of alcohol related problems, like I said before, I drink moderately, never drinking enough to make me ill. I was looking for a more tao centred answer since there's no reference to it in the TTC.

[Oleg Galkin]

Hey folks!

 

Just wondering what the Taoist view on alcohol was? Is it a "Everything in moderation?" or a "Don't touch it, it's a poison" or a "Who cares so long as you have fun man?" or more of a "Up to you!". I'm in university at the moment and I have to say that the presiding opinion is "Drink as much as possible as fast as possible" and that "Larger volume of alcohol=More fun", and I'm not sure I agree. I get the impression that polluting my body probably isn't quite Taoist, but I eat far too much rubbish for that to be a concern at the moment! Since no one here seems to have heard of Taoism (shame as it is), I thought I'd ask here. Thoughts?

 

Much love people.

 

Sam

 

Simple. It is not bad until you're not alcoholic. Just don't overdo with it.

[Samuel]

Thank you for the replies, I especially like the Gogol Bordello video, Rainbow Vein!

[thelerner]

The paradox of alcohol is that while it's a toxin to the liver and brain, its very good tonic for the heart (whose disease is major killer). A number of populations studies have shown men who drink a glass or 2 a day, live longer and healthier then tea teetotalers. This is backed up by numerous studies, the caveat being one or two glasses. The full protective effect seems to based partly on the alcohol in the drink and not on antioxidants alone.

 

 

Personally I'll have a glass of wine w/ dinner and drink a beer or two w/ friends every now and then. Makes sense to drop it for a few days or weeks once in a while though and when going on retreat or doing intensive meditation I'd also abstain.

 

 

Michael

[gendao]

The paradox of alcohol is that while it's a toxin to the liver and brain, its very good tonic for the heart (whose disease is major killer). A number of populations studies have shown men who drink a glass or 2 a day, live longer and healthier then tea teetotalers. This is backed up by numerous studies, the caveat being one or two glasses. The full protective effect seems to based partly on the alcohol in the drink and not on antioxidants alone.

 

 

Personally I'll have a glass of wine w/ dinner and drink a beer or two w/ friends every now and then. Makes sense to drop it for a few days or weeks once in a while though and when going on retreat or doing intensive meditation I'd also abstain.

Is that proven due to the alcohol...or resveratrol and red grape polyphenols?

 

If it's the latter, then that could explain why red wine may help protect against atherosclerosis. But not all booze may be equal.

 

For example, beer ingredients may have some negative effects. Hops has estrogen-like effects (although little may remain in finished beer). And beer also raises uric acid levels - which leads to a whole cascade of downstream health problems (like obesity, high blood pressure, kidney disease, fatty liver, insulin production & gout).

Dr. Johnson found one more common substance that also elevates uric acid levels, namely beer!

 

It turns out that the yeast and all thats used to make beer work together to make beer another powerful uric acid trigger.

 

The classic beer belly syndrome, is also quite similar to metabolic syndrome, and includes abdominal obesity, hypertriglyceridemia (high triglycerides), high blood pressure, and even insulin resistance.

Edited April 30, 2010 by vortex

[suninmyeyes]

Ive had this discussion with the taoist friend the other day and he said that there is space for everything in moderation in taoisam including alcohol.

But reading Rainbow Veins quote above Im not so sure anymore...

Anyway im gonna use this opportunity and be very like some old boring auntie caracther and say whats my opinion.

Alcohol has no place in my life and if i could id ban it.

There is so much violence and illnesses that stem from alcohol .A lot of domestic violence and other types of violence has been done under influence of alcohol . Alcohol numbs your mind and judgments if not in a short run then in a long run.Alcohol helps you open to negative influence which wears a masque of "relaxing,good times,unwinding...".

Im sure this is not going to be a a very popular point of view .

[Aetherous]

Hello suninmyeyes,

 

There is so much violence and illnesses that stem from alcohol

 

This is true, but with moderation the opposite is true. If a person has one drink, they calm down. Their health improves...numerous studies have shown this.

 

There are other ways to relax, and I'm not saying I want you to drink! Just saying that some poisons can be helpful if used right.

[suninmyeyes]

Hey Scotty,

I suppose alchohol as medicine its fine,agreed.

Just once in a while is too much already in my extremist opinion as its still forming a grove in the mind that will associate again in a similar situation.And the person will drink again.

Alchohol wears many seductive masks.

[Aetherous]

Yes many people are seduced and destroyed by it. One of my grandpas, my uncle, my best friend, many other friends...it is risky.

Edited May 1, 2010 by Scotty

[宁]

alcohol turns the aura into swiss cheese

 

the subtle and the physical immunity are kinda turned off

and the suble and physical parasites are very happy

why do you think it's called 'spirits'

 

if you want to know what a taoist does/doesn't need,

search for the list of prohibitions that a taoist monk has to follow

then do the math

 

[Samuel]

alcohol turns the aura into swiss cheese

 

the subtle and the physical immunity are kinda turned off

and the suble and physical parasites are very happy

why do you think it's called 'spirits'

 

if you want to know what a taoist does/doesn't need,

search for the list of prohibitions that a taoist monk has to follow

then do the math

 

 

 

Sorry to bump this thread, haven't been on the site for a very very long time. A helpful answer! I later found a list of precepts that a school of taoist priests had to swear to before becoming clergymen. One of them was "No alcohol!"

 

 

[Kali Yuga]

Yes many people are seduced and destroyed by it. One of my grandpas, my uncle, my best friend, many other friends...it is risky.

 

I'm sorry for your losses scotty. Perhaps that it goes deeper than that though? Alcohol destroyed them? Or they found a way to destroy themselves from alcohol?

 

Numerous debates could go on but the main points for it would usually be the following:

 

It was the man's fault and not the alcohol because if he didnt have enough self control in the first place then why blame the alcohol?

 

vs.

 

It was the alcohol's fault, it makes people do strange things and the people lose proper judgment while under it.

 

 

There are so many things to take into account. I myself know my limit and where I prefer to be. I know my limitations when I drink. I have tolerance. Not everyone is the same though.

 

I also find that the strength of one's focus is very important. Willpower is an amazing thing.

 

Maybe it all boils down to why and how u drink.

[Gerard]

Unfortunately, I have very little idea of TCM. Is there any chance that you could reccomend a book to start with, I've always wanted to learn about TCM.

 

You can start reading this basic intro:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huangdi_Neijing

 

 

This is a good book to start learning TCM:

 

The Foundations of Chinese Medicine: A Comprehensive Text for Acupuncturists and Herbalists (Giovanni Maciocia).

 

 

Edited: typo

Edited August 24, 2010 by durkhrod chogori