NeiChuan

Meditating in a graveyard

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I don't particularly have any feelings for graveyards, but we have a tradition here to go see graves of relatives and ancestors, place flowers or candles there and tend the grave. It's usually very peaceful in the ones I visited, never had feelings of lingering entities or such there.

 

 

When I was a teenager, I liked to take girls to the graveyard on dates.

 

I did that once as a teenager, but I think maybe it was the girl taking me there. It was a serene place.

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Tyler, it is NOT OK to call someone's personal experience bullshit, or trash on a fellow member. That is not how we do things around here. Remember those forum rules you read each time you joined the TTBs?

 

 

So youre saying its not ok to express my opinions? My opinion of that read was that it was bullshit. People will have to deal with opinions in life. It can help them. To push the kindergarten like saying of "dont call names" is actually childish. It is harmful to another person for me -in some situations-to not call them on bullshit that I feel is such strong bullshit enought to tell them. Have consideration for other people when it comes to their actions.

 

 

 

 

i apologize for the grammar i am typing with one hand now.

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Oh sure opinions are fine, but how many people do you know who actually talk that way in real life? Not many actually. A better approach might be "your experiences don't line up with what I have experienced or been taught". See how that conveys the same idea but isn't being nasty about it? Also seriously who would read or post on forums where people are being constantly put down? Not many. Oh sure there are forums like this around the net, however they aren't (accept for one major exception lolol) Taoist nor cultivation forums.

 

Well there is also the issue of you being a previously banned member that needs to be taken care of.

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sometimes there is no difference, right? :P

 

but i agree with BKA, your scheme does stretch the imagination somewhat.

 

Trust me you did not hear even 1% of the truth. It is unjust to give a certain knowledge which is beyond the reality of that particular person. However, for evolution the reality of that person should be stretched a little bit.

 

Also, please do not assume that spirit of every dead person does not become earth bound. Only a certain percentage becomes like that. :)

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dhutaṅga susānika

 

Meaning of the susānika dhutaṅga


The Pali term "susānika" means "the one who has the habit to dwell within charnels".
"susāna" = "charnel"; "susānika" = "an individual who dwells in a charnel"
When this practice is conveniently done, with constancy and diligence, with the determination of not breaking it, we say that there is "susānikaṅga" (state of mind arising out of dwelling among charnels).
According to the texts of the "visuddhi magga", we may consider to be a "charnel" any spot where human corpses are buried or burnt since at least twelve years.


Adoption of the susānika dhutaṅga


In order to adopt this dhutaṅga, it is convenient to pronounce the following phrase whether in Pali, whether in the language of one's choice...
In Pali:
«na susānaṃ paṭikkhipāmi, sosānikaṅgaṃ samādhiyāmi.»
In French:
«I renounce to spots where there are no corpses, I will train into dwelling among charnels.»


The three kinds of practitioners of the susānika dhutaṅga

According to restrictions, there do exist three kinds of practitioners of the susānika dhutaṅga:
ukkaṭṭha susānika, the noble practitioner of the susānika dhutaṅga
majjhima susānika, the intermediate practitioner of the susānika dhutaṅga
mudu susānika, the ordinary practitioner of the susānika dhutaṅga


1. the noble practitioner
The bhikkhu who is a noble practitioner of the dhutaṅga susānika dwells in a charnel that has the the three following characteristics: 1) daily, some corpses are cremated in it; 2) in it, there is constantly a smell of corpse entering a stage of decomposition; 3) some funerals are being daily held in it, with (the sound produced by) the weeping and wailing of the relatives of the dead person whom they are accompanying.


2. the intermediate practitioner
The bhikkhu who is an intermediate practitioner of the susānika dhutaṅga dwells in a charnel that has the the three aforesaid characteristics.
3. the ordinary practitioner
The bhikkhu who is an ordinary practitioner of the susānika dhutaṅga dwells on a spot where a dead person has already been buried or cremated.


The advantages of the susānika dhutaṅga

By practising the susānika dhutaṅga, we can benefit with the following advantages...
We remain aware of the reality of death.
We are a person who is permanently wide awake.
We are permanently aware of the inevitable character of death.
We are enabled to easily get rid of desire.
We can contemplate the perishable nature of the body at any time.
Maturity of the awareness of old age, illness and death.
We get rid of self-pride concerning our health (or physical qualities).
We get easily endure the very variegated forms of dangers.
We are respected by ogres and ghosts.
We benefit with a convenient means to provide for what we need, while being able to be satisfied with little.
Remark: the practice of a dhutaṅga alone enables one to understand its advantages.

The way to break the susānika dhutaṅga

As soon as a practitioner of the susānika dhutaṅga settles down on a spot (with the intention to remain on it), even for a short moment, he breaks his dhutaṅga.
According to the texts of the "aṅguttaranikaya", it is taught that the practitioner of the susānika dhutaṅga can go out of his charnel soon before dawn without breaking his dhutaṅga. Nevertheless, he breaks it from the very day when he doesn't proceed to a charnel. In the same manner, if he comes out of the charnel before dawn, he breaks his dhutaṅga.


The discipline to be observed by the practitioner of the susānika dhutaṅga

According to the «visuddhi magga», the bhikkhu who practises the susānika dhutaṅga «must have a few activities and light means of livelihood (a few belongings) only». Thus, it is not proper that such a bhikkhu dwells on such a spot while doing very visible things, such as: building up a footpath, a shelter, utilising a bed, a large carpet, installing a large water store (for drinking or providing for various needs), teaching the dhamma, giving meditation instructions, giving a teaching, etc.
It is very good, on the other hand, to dwell in a charnel, like the mahāthera Mahāsu, who dwelt sixty years non-stop in a charnel, and nobody ever came to know about it.
This dhutaṅga is very difficult to put into practice. Most of individuals are not eligible for adopting such a practice.
For practising this dhutaṅga, it is indispensable not to fear feelings of disgust and fright, it is necessary to be very courageous, fearless and tenacious. For this reason, before starting the practice of such a dhutaṅga, it is convenient to proceed to a charnel during the day time and to minutely observe all the characteristics that such a spot is made of. Then, it is convenient to proceed back to it again, but at night-time, in order to observe in it the aforesaid characteristics. In a charnel, the daytime strongly contrasts with the night-time. Indeed, even though the spot remains the same, it becomes, to most of individuals, far more frightening during the night time as compared with the daytime. Some scaring thoughts can easily appear owing to the distorted sights arising out of the night. By watching a man or a dog, for instance, we do not know what it is about and we can easily imagine having seen dangerous things or beings. A minute study of a charnel during the daytime yields the advantages to know all its elements; owing to this fact, once the night has fallen, these elements have no more reasons to be frightening.
Thus, it is convenient for a bhikkhu to adopt the susānika dhutaṅga only once he has made sure he got entirely rid of any fright likely to manifest, should he dwell in a charnel at night-time.

Encouragement to the practise of the susānika dhutaṅga

Given that we are constantly coming across dead people, in the course of practice of this dhutaṅga, we are no longer scared of death. Buddha told:
«appamādo amataṃ padaṃ pamādo maccunopadaṃ»
«those who are inattentive constantly die; those who are heedful never die.»
Those who know how to take benefit from this word can rapidly attain the realisation of nibbāna.
By dwelling in a charnel, we are put into the position of frequently watching corpses. By seeing that, we can easily do away with the attachment to sensuous pleasures.
A burmese proverb is telling us: «If you don't want to die, always go to the cemetery! Don't forget that you will also ultimately die!»

From the great http://en.dhammadana.org/sangha/dhutanga/residence/dh11.htm

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The mind is a weird and wonderful playground....

Graveyard = yukkks!

Woods = serenity!

How would you know that there are no bones (or less) beneath the ground in the woods?

At least, in cemeteries, you kinda know who's buried there... in the woods, you don't know. One could easily offend and not know how or where to offer mitigation or pacification.

Haven't you heard of roaming entities?

Some people with low psychic shields can bump into such things while out in forests and parks, and then get quite ill after. Then offerings and such have to be made, but if one does not even know the source of where the offense took place, it becomes more complex to pacify the situation and resolve the matter.

 

That kind of offense does not occur as easy as you said. Actually, it usually happens in one way:

If you pee in the woods without warning the elemental nature spirits, then they really get upset and send you enormously powerful negative energies like arrows. Then, your aurora get pierced.

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DAO rain TAO, I like the dhutaṅga susānika a lot. I'm not as familiar with Hindu culture as I would like to be. Do they, generally speaking, have a loathing for these places of cremation? Is death and all the dressings of it frightening to them? If so, this would make the dhutaṅga susānika practice a hundred times more intense than for someone without the same cultural background. What do you know that can shed light on my hunch?

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IThere is another awesome post or 2 on Chod in this thread :).

yeah ... sorry about that, if I doubled someone, I was reading all the replies but frankly, some of them were just silly and ill-informed opinion and I got impatient

Do you think such things work just as well in Western cemeteries (standard ones), compared to ones found in say India, Tibet and so forth?

Hmmm ... v.interesting question! In my case it was a visualisation (in a fully fitted out Kagyu temple) so I ended up in some amazing old Tibetan graveyard (in my 'imagination') (also the trumpets, bells and chanting in deep guttural Tibetan helped )

 

On the western level I would use a different formular and although not quiet a graveyard visualisation (most westerners would consider it a 'descent into Hell' - but it is v.similar to Chod in many ways); like first part of V * OTO (western R+C Bodhisatva like ceremony) and Levi's Hymn to Honarius (I think it's called). Much more suited to the Western mind that may have not encountered eastern systems IMO.

 

May I ask what you mean exactly by demons in this case? The reason I ask is that you said they could have been our mothers in a previous life.

Sorry again, that is a quote (inverted commas) from a Lama on the third site down on google search ... I meant to post the web address but didn't (I am still having trouble driving this thing ... coming back from google I lost a long post yesterday :( )

 

What I would mean by that term is ... hmmm ; here we go ... (again, apologies a complex subject but trying to be brief)

Daimonic forces and entities are integral and beneficial IF acknowledged the right way. if not they seem to get lodged on to human identity, somehow acquiring the human need for individual ego identity (which they aren't ... not their fault WE do that to them), if this isn't addressed then they can become 'complexes' and eventually can be seen as wholly separate invading entities or demons (which is an illusion created by human' traits' mixing with Daimonic ones the wrong way. One could say they are split off parts of ourselves that are seeking individual identity (because we haven't been able to 'own them'.)

 

The Lama whose words I wrote probably wouldn't a agree with this but would probably agree with the remedy i.e. these entities now have a right ( and those that created them ... or others ... have a responsibility to assist) to spiritual evolution (I'm a bit rusty here ... I would need to break out my old Goetic diary / record ... it makes more sense what is written in there)

 

This is a very interesting perspective for me, since walking by cemeteries I'm sometimes thinking "hey I'm not free lunch guys". Hmmmm. Contemplations needed.

 

I'm wondering about something which confuses me a bit, if they are suffering and need it the most, wouldn't they need the good stuff too? How come only the Bodhisattvas and Buddhas get the good stuff? Also, is offering our crap a good thing for them? I can see why I might want to offer my good stuff only to beings which seem more positive ;), however this is all about helping those which we might normally neglect or avoid (I think anyways, from what I understand of this small bit I read). Or perhaps I'm just overthinking stuff ;).

 

No ... that's a very reasonable question ... I had a much better site reference that explained Chod in a great way (from some professor in a US university , but I would have to find it again (I might be able to get back here with it. ... but basically it explains a lot better what the above guy didn't explain too well - IMO)

I have performed previous rites offering up my entire self/body, but under a much different tradition/method. Definitely scary/interesting/enlightening :>.

 

Scary , interesting, enlightening, colour, sound, cacophonous magical instruments, rounds of chanting, skeleton dancing tankas, .... all elements of a good tantric ritual ( focusing intent using the active mind instead of 'no mind' or 'singular mind').

 

It does seem weird to some but we need to remember this tradition came from, in part, old Tibetan Shamanism and shamanic initiation and transformation (in the 'otherworld' or by visualisation) can be a very 'gruesome' process.

 

THE MAGICIAN

 

[TRANSLATED FROM ELIPHAZ LEVI’S VERSION OF THE FAMOUS HYMN]

 

 

 

O Lord, deliver me from hell's great fear and gloom!

 

Loose thou my spirit from the larvae of the tomb!

 

I seek them in their dread abodes without affright:

 

On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

 

 

 

I bid the night conceive the glittering hemisphere.

 

Arise, O sun, arise! O moon, shine white and clear!

 

I seek them in their dread abodes without affright:

 

On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

 

 

 

Their faces and their shapes are terrible and strange.

 

These devils by my might to angels I will change.

 

These nameless horrors I address without affright:

 

On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

 

 

 

These are the phantoms pale of mine astonied view,

 

Yet none but I their blasted beauty can renew;

 

For to the abyss of hell I plunge without affright:

 

On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

 

DAO rain TAO, I like the dhutaṅga susānika a lot. I'm not as familiar with Hindu culture as I would like to be. Do they, generally speaking, have a loathing for these places of cremation? Is death and all the dressings of it frightening to them? If so, this would make the dhutaṅga susānika practice a hundred times more intense than for someone without the same cultural background. What do you know that can shed light on my hunch?

I heard a Lama say that in the past, and considering the mind set of some Tibetan Monks and they way they had grown up and been conditioned in their culture, family, etc. that there was a real chance that they may actually die of 'fright' if doing the ceremony traditionally and they are not ready for it.

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These nameless horrors I address without affright:

On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

 

I'm trying to grasp what it is you are talking about. Is this close to the practice of "casting entities into the light"? As some do in their healing modalities? The light is somewhere above and you command the entities to be taken there, then angels come down and lead the entity up and into the light. A healing takes place as a result which is, in fact, the release of unwanted energy or beliefs.

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I'm trying to grasp what it is you are talking about. Is this close to the practice of "casting entities into the light"? As some do in their healing modalities? The light is somewhere above and you command the entities to be taken there, then angels come down and lead the entity up and into the light. A healing takes place as a result which is, in fact, the release of unwanted energy or beliefs.

Sorry, I am not familiar with 'casting entities into the light' or 'healing modalities'. You quoted Levi, so ... I guess the meaning is his.

 

In a way, what you say outlines the process, so, in a way, yes that is what I am talking about.

 

But to be specific (and use your terms) I would modify it a bit; You 'descend' bringing the 'light' with you, it illuminates your fears, demons, devils, unwanted energy or beliefs. According to Levi the 'devils' are changed into angels (not led by them) ... its a gradual evolution ... a healing takes place, not only in the self but in these entities, which, although originally were an objective outside diamonic entity have become aversely incorporated into the psyche (ie. denied by the rational ego and forced into the subjective unconscious) their gradual rising into the light is healthy and holistic incorporation into the conscious world ... this is where these 'demonic forces' can be 'beneficial helpers' of a special kind (as suggested by the Lamas quote I made above).

 

Its often a hard concept for those who have been conditioned by western ego scientific rationalism (me :) ) ... I found it best explained by my current shamanic teacher ( a Bundjulung {East coast Australian Aboriginal elder and 'shaman' or Kadiacha Man} ... in his country there are certain 'spirits' ... they seem pretty scary to most (even the aboriginals), one of them has a habit of throwing one of his legs over his shoulder and hopping at fast speed and chasing you , you cant run faster than him and he will catch you ... others seem equally spooky and bizarre ... my teacher when talking about them gets sentimental and describes them as spiritual beings that are the protectors and teachers of his people.

Edited by Nungali
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guys i forgot to tell you

 

there is a thing called samashaan sadhana in Tantra ( meaning attaining siddhi of the graveyard)

 

but its is a very secret process and believe me you will never see it in print

 

it is a left hand practice of Trijata Aghoris

 

basically they sit upon a dead body, than make a Yantra on their chest and chant some extremely secret mantras

 

which cause the body to start moving in the middle of process

 

i read an very interesting account of this sadhana in my native language

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guys i forgot to tell you

 

there is a thing called samashaan sadhana in Tantra ( meaning attaining siddhi of the graveyard)

 

but its is a very secret process and believe me you will never see it in print

 

it is a left hand practice of Trijata Aghoris

 

basically they sit upon a dead body, than make a Yantra on their chest and chant some extremely secret mantras

 

which cause the body to start moving in the middle of process

 

i read an very interesting account of this sadhana in my native language

 

I'll admit it, the second the body started moving (unless maybe the person had been a good friend I knew for awhile), that would be the point I run screaming out of the cemetery ;). I have seen and heard some very uhm interesting things during cemetery visits and did pretty well, but that.... I'll just file that under "I'm not ready yet" :>.

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I don't recommend this practice unless one is trained in helping Earth bound Spirits, and even if one is trained, I suggest to choose one's battles - can't help everyone.

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DAO rain TAO, I like the dhutaṅga susānika a lot. I'm not as familiar with Hindu culture as I would like to be. Do they, generally speaking, have a loathing for these places of cremation? Is death and all the dressings of it frightening to them? If so, this would make the dhutaṅga susānika practice a hundred times more intense than for someone without the same cultural background. What do you know that can shed light on my hunch?

 

Yeah, I think you're correct.

But basically, the point of dwelling in the charnel ground is to fix in one's mind the idea of impermanence and death. If the place is really really scary, then to detach seems to be the only way to survive.

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i dont know about western graveyards

 

but at least in india they burn the body and the ash of the dead body is considered very auspicious , specially for aghoras and left hand tantrics

 

currently watching Mahadeva and Lord shiva just said, the one who put ash on his body, his heart becomes pure

 

and graveyard is actually used to gain many siddhis in tantric path

 

How does the average person there react to and/or interact with cemeteries? Here most folks think they are pretty spooky and tend to avoid them. Though there are a few here in Canada which are quite parklike, and people will come and have a picnic lunch there and walk or bicycle through.

 

First off, there is no such thing as a stupid comment. It does not exist.

 

A quote from Osho comes to mind about death:

 

 

When I was a teenager, I liked to take girls to the graveyard on dates. I liked the old tombstones. This was certainly a good test to see if the girl was going to be a good mate. I got turned down a few times but some girls liked the old stones as much as I did. They got asked out again to do something more conventional. I also liked taking dates on walks through the forest. I love nature. Again, I got some rejections and some yeses. I ended up marrying a girl who loved walking in the woods as much a s I did.

 

I have felt fear in many places, including the woods. Looking back, I think I brought the fear with me. It wasn't real. I've felt evil so thick it would stop my heart when entering some places and resorted to a magic spell to cast it out of me. This worked. But, that was a long time ago. I haven't felt this fear or evil anywhere for the longest time.

 

There was an exception about three years ago, in the fall of 2010, when I was entering a trail at dusk. I felt a strong warning telling me not to enter the woods there. It was a physical feeling, and emotional; it gripped me and shook me, telling me that this hike was not a good idea. I entered the woods anyways.

 

The feeling of not being wanted there continued to be very strong. I took a side trail to a picnic bench and sat down to enjoy the wonderful play of light at dusk over the verdant rain forest. Looking back at the main trail, I saw two very tall personages covered in long blond hair walking along the trail at a good speed. They were female I felt. Suddenly, a large black-haired male strode up to my bench. I stood on the bench to be eye to with him, but he was still taller. I said hello in my mind. His forearm was injured, I could tell since I was a healer; I reached out and touched his forearm to give him a healing. The hair was incredibly soft. Without warning, his hand shot out and entered my chest, tearing my heart from my body. I fell over dead, then came too as if emerging from a very life-like dream. No hairy personages in sight.

 

I left the woods after that; the instant I reached my car, the strong foreboding feeling of eminent danger left me. This occured a week or so before receiving my third Reiki degree. I don't think this was a daydream. I think I received psychic surgery on my heart which was in dire need of healing, emotional healing, at the time.

 

P'taah says, "We live in a safe universe".

 

I have found the deep woods (especially at dusk or at night) to have some of the oddest experiences. However the couple of times I have gotten that really strong do not enter feeling, I turned around ;).

 

Here is an documentary on Aghori , their traditional practises are done on cemetary . It is interseting to see ..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=W0bGrvKVxac

 

Much respect for them.

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i love cemeteries, but have had some strange encounters. Mary Anne Wynkowski, who is a regular guest of George Noory on Coast to Coast AM and has demonstrated psychic proficiency and ability to communicate with the ghost realm in telephone encounters with callers-in to the show, says that graveyards are no more or less populated with spirits than your average main street or the deep woods. She says that most spirits just wander aimlessly and are more attracted to things that they had attachment to in life, like locations or people, than they are to their own graves or the graveyard. I don't personally get a lot of psychic activity in cemeteries, and I have reason to believe that she can actually see ghosts as plainly as day. So that's my 2c. On the other hand, I think perhaps other kinds of spirits like graveyards because they are serene and peaceful and "twilight" places having a foot in each world of life and death so are powerful in that way. I have had encounters with something or other in cemeteries, and personally love to walk in them, in daytime or night, but always carry a respect for the sanctity of them, and try to offer what i can to the spirits that are there, even if that just means picking up litter and doing things like that that they can't do. I just received chod empowerment 2 weeks ago, and am not practicing at night, or in graveyards, for the time being. I had some freaky encounters surrounding it already, so am sticking to daytime practice in consecrated spaces. I do think meditating in a cemetery might be great, but i suggest stopping to still your mind and ask the spirit of the place or the resident spirits there if they mind, and then waiting for some kind of answer (when in doubt, don't do it), and sticking to practices which are in keeping with the place, pacifying (and pacified) practices, nothing wrathful or powerful. so thats 4 cents. or more.

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Wow, reading this thread, and watching the videos has really helped explain and put into context some of the long term rituals I have been given over the years. Thank you. Nothing like 12 years of living in a cremation grounds, but the explanations really help some things :).

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I'll admit it, the second the body started moving (unless maybe the person had been a good friend I knew for awhile), that would be the point I run screaming out of the cemetery ;). I have seen and heard some very uhm interesting things during cemetery visits and did pretty well, but that.... I'll just file that under "I'm not ready yet" :>.

 

well its one of the scariest ritual i guess

 

i have read an account of someone who has done, he was scared too lol

 

basically you need a fresh dead body, i guess

 

than in midnight you undress the body, and make a Yantra on its chest

 

than you sit upon the body (even this is scary)

 

than you perform some ritual and chant some mantras which you only get from your master

 

suddenly the body will start moving, different type of creatures will start to come out of the mouth of body

 

at the end you offer goat and beer to Bhairavas and Bhairavis (goat actually was consumed by them at that place, as stated by the person)

 

 

but whats strange to me is this that they do all this just to get siddhis

 

the person who did thsi, got the power of entering anybody's body and waak siddhi (whatever he will say become true)

 

i dont get it, how is this related to enlightenment ?

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Much respect for them.

With politness I must state that -- I generally do not have too much respect for them .The documentary is interesting to watch however .

Very rarley people can pull this sadhana off IMO .

This sadhana involves even eating human flesh in some cases .. The problem arises that most do not master fundamentals of DETACHMENT accompanied with COMPASSION under all circumstances and often loose their mind to a degree or totally or /and end up involved in black arts harming themselves and others .

It often attaracts people in search for exotic and looking for something cool and different and of course it does arouse a sort of dangerous curiosity and they end up messed up .

It seems old fashioned in some ways and not the fast way as they often say , could be wrong so am open to criticism .

Edited by suninmyeyes
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i dont get it, how is this related to enlightenment ?

not only its not related, in most instances, such practices actually block the enlightening process.

Edited by C T
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I've read something about corpse meditation in the first book of the Aghora trilogy by R.Svoboda.

 

The purpose of such practices seems to be to gain power (siddhis) and then (as in almost all tantric school) one should work on that "pure basis" of favorable conditions to achieve enlightenment.

A good tantric practitioner is not conquered by the power that he gets: for this reason, a self-less, compassionate heart is quintessential.

 

Also, it is said that one may even die during such sadhanas...

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