Meditating in a graveyard

[BaguaKicksAss]

well its one of the scariest ritual i guess

 

i have read an account of someone who has done, he was scared too lol

 

basically you need a fresh dead body, i guess

 

than in midnight you undress the body, and make a Yantra on its chest

 

than you sit upon the body (even this is scary)

 

than you perform some ritual and chant some mantras which you only get from your master

 

suddenly the body will start moving, different type of creatures will start to come out of the mouth of body

 

at the end you offer goat and beer to Bhairavas and Bhairavis (goat actually was consumed by them at that place, as stated by the person)

 

 

but whats strange to me is this that they do all this just to get siddhis

 

the person who did thsi, got the power of entering anybody's body and waak siddhi (whatever he will say become true)

 

i dont get it, how is this related to enlightenment ?

 

I have performed workings which terrified me so much I was frozen in fear, to get powers. Nothing like sitting on a moving dead body, but for me just as terrifying. I was told after I was done that with the one working (which lasted a few months) that the spirits of that working do their best to try to throw you off the path so you won't finish the working. (though maybe they are nice and just push you to your near breaking point). I'm sure there are non-terrifying ways to gain powers too... but now that I think about it, another working I did which was supposed to be non-terrifying was just as scary, because I had to confront complete obliteration of my ego, self, and etc. for a time., as well as overcome my fears in a very real way. The whole bliss thing fortunately took over the whole being terrified thing. Funny what we are afraid of.

 

I've read something about corpse meditation in the first book of the Aghora trilogy by R.Svoboda.

 

The purpose of such practices seems to be to gain power (siddhis) and then (as in almost all tantric school) one should work on that "pure basis" of favorable conditions to achieve enlightenment.

A good tantric practitioner is not conquered by the power that he gets: for this reason, a self-less, compassionate heart is quintessential.

 

Also, it is said that one may even die during such sadhanas...

 

I'm betting insanity is also a very real danger.

 

With politness I must state that -- I generally do not have too much respect for them .The documentary is interesting to watch however .

Very rarley people can pull this sadhana off IMO .

This sadhana involves even eating human flesh in some cases .. The problem arises that most do not master fundamentals of DETACHMENT accompanied with COMPASSION under all circumstances and often loose their mind to a degree or totally or /and end up involved in black arts harming themselves and others .

It often attaracts people in search for exotic and looking for something cool and different and of course it does arouse a sort of dangerous curiosity and they end up messed up .

It seems old fashioned in some ways and not the fast way as they often say , could be wrong so am open to criticism .

 

The part which impressed me, was the willingness to give up everything (including comfy clothing) and live in the cremation grounds for 12 years, to become closer to their deities! I have a student who left to, for the second time, spend the rest of his life in a monastery in prayer non-stop. While I couldn't do either of these things, I have much respect for such devotion, in whichever way it is practiced.

 

Honestly though, I'd be the one with the REI sleeping bag if my teacher told me to go to charnel grounds... .

 

i love cemeteries, but have had some strange encounters. Mary Anne Wynkowski, who is a regular guest of George Noory on Coast to Coast AM and has demonstrated psychic proficiency and ability to communicate with the ghost realm in telephone encounters with callers-in to the show, says that graveyards are no more or less populated with spirits than your average main street or the deep woods. She says that most spirits just wander aimlessly and are more attracted to things that they had attachment to in life, like locations or people, than they are to their own graves or the graveyard. I don't personally get a lot of psychic activity in cemeteries, and I have reason to believe that she can actually see ghosts as plainly as day. So that's my 2c. On the other hand, I think perhaps other kinds of spirits like graveyards because they are serene and peaceful and "twilight" places having a foot in each world of life and death so are powerful in that way. I have had encounters with something or other in cemeteries, and personally love to walk in them, in daytime or night, but always carry a respect for the sanctity of them, and try to offer what i can to the spirits that are there, even if that just means picking up litter and doing things like that that they can't do. I just received chod empowerment 2 weeks ago, and am not practicing at night, or in graveyards, for the time being. I had some freaky encounters surrounding it already, so am sticking to daytime practice in consecrated spaces. I do think meditating in a cemetery might be great, but i suggest stopping to still your mind and ask the spirit of the place or the resident spirits there if they mind, and then waiting for some kind of answer (when in doubt, don't do it), and sticking to practices which are in keeping with the place, pacifying (and pacified) practices, nothing wrathful or powerful. so thats 4 cents. or more.

 

The Chod workings definitely sound intense. Always smarter to go slow I figure anyways.

 

Good point about entering properly .

 

Fortunately I was taught the proper methods (for my tradition) to enter, talk, work, and leave any cemetery, before I ever did anything more than walk through, or enjoy the scenery (trees and nice old tombstones) in a cemetery. I definitely worry for the folks who just randomly walk in loudly, talk loudly "wake" everyone up, and practice random magic or so forth, in such places.

 

I know it seems small, but during a group meditation practice in a cemetery everyone was fine after as we did everything properly, accept the one person who started talking on her cel phone partway through a sacred ceremony. Not that walking through during the day and chatting on one's cel phone would be bad, but the time really wasn't right. Well somehow the person tripped and fell and started bleeding on the way out. Needless to say this person was messed with for quite some time afterwards.

[C T]

Insanity or divine madness... hard to tell the difference sometimes.

 

In Buddha's time, the encouragement given to meditate where dead bodies gather was never intended as a means to cultivate siddhis. As per human failings fueled by incessant boredom, those who ventured into such practices perhaps thought it was real neat to while away the time experimenting with various magical tools, sort of on a trial and error basis. Thanks to their sacrifices, we now have people with chutzpah actually talking about evolving powers from an essentially noble endeavor. Not saying its right or wrong, just that it presents quite a few rather unnecessary challenges, if you know what i mean.

[BaguaKicksAss]

I didnt say that graveyards=yukks. I asked him why he would want to be in a graveyard specifically to meditate. Now I am hoping you take this and the rest of the things I write and remember them the next time you comment because there is no excuse for this.

 

 

 

There most likely are bones beneath you in the woods. But a person doesnt specifically go to the woods to have skeletons around them. Thats what a graveyard is for. That is why I asked him if his reason for going was because he liked having the bodies beneath him.

 

 

 

The last part about entities is ridiculous. I am shocked that a person could say something so stupid. Your beliefs are your beliefs to be followed but to speak about them in such an invasive and "factual" way is insulting and pisses me off. Especially when its something so stupid- in my opinion at least.

 

I have found that most people will meditate (or visit lots) such places either to feel the profound peace there, or to get answers about things, even if they don't know that is why yet.

 

I have to admit, that I spent far too much time in such places after both my sister, than my mother died. These events happened in my teens and early 20's and took a lot out of me. Both were cremated, so i could not visit their graves; instead I would visit cemeteries and the dead in general. I would go talk with them and ask questions . Also just exploring how things were in their "world" or place, or whathaveyou. I definitely learned some interesting things. I had some very good and profound experiences. I also had a few really not good at all experiences (well aside from maybe toughening up the practitioner or something lol). I probably learned some more compassion in there too.

 

Others who I know who have not had such experiences in their lives tend to just have questions about the unknown, and themselves, near as I can tell.

 

dhutaṅga susānika

 

Meaning of the susānika dhutaṅga

The Pali term "susānika" means "the one who has the habit to dwell within charnels".

"susāna" = "charnel"; "susānika" = "an individual who dwells in a charnel"

When this practice is conveniently done, with constancy and diligence, with the determination of not breaking it, we say that there is "susānikaṅga" (state of mind arising out of dwelling among charnels).

According to the texts of the "visuddhi magga", we may consider to be a "charnel" any spot where human corpses are buried or burnt since at least twelve years.

 

Adoption of the susānika dhutaṅga

In order to adopt this dhutaṅga, it is convenient to pronounce the following phrase whether in Pali, whether in the language of one's choice...

In Pali:

«na susānaṃ paṭikkhipāmi, sosānikaṅgaṃ samādhiyāmi.»

In French:

«I renounce to spots where there are no corpses, I will train into dwelling among charnels.»

 

The three kinds of practitioners of the susānika dhutaṅga

According to restrictions, there do exist three kinds of practitioners of the susānika dhutaṅga:

ukkaṭṭha susānika, the noble practitioner of the susānika dhutaṅga

majjhima susānika, the intermediate practitioner of the susānika dhutaṅga

mudu susānika, the ordinary practitioner of the susānika dhutaṅga

1. the noble practitioner

The bhikkhu who is a noble practitioner of the dhutaṅga susānika dwells in a charnel that has the the three following characteristics: 1) daily, some corpses are cremated in it; 2) in it, there is constantly a smell of corpse entering a stage of decomposition; 3) some funerals are being daily held in it, with (the sound produced by) the weeping and wailing of the relatives of the dead person whom they are accompanying.

2. the intermediate practitioner

The bhikkhu who is an intermediate practitioner of the susānika dhutaṅga dwells in a charnel that has the the three aforesaid characteristics.

3. the ordinary practitioner

The bhikkhu who is an ordinary practitioner of the susānika dhutaṅga dwells on a spot where a dead person has already been buried or cremated.

 

The advantages of the susānika dhutaṅga

By practising the susānika dhutaṅga, we can benefit with the following advantages...

We remain aware of the reality of death.

We are a person who is permanently wide awake.

We are permanently aware of the inevitable character of death.

We are enabled to easily get rid of desire.

We can contemplate the perishable nature of the body at any time.

Maturity of the awareness of old age, illness and death.

We get rid of self-pride concerning our health (or physical qualities).

We get easily endure the very variegated forms of dangers.

We are respected by ogres and ghosts.

We benefit with a convenient means to provide for what we need, while being able to be satisfied with little.

Remark: the practice of a dhutaṅga alone enables one to understand its advantages.

The way to break the susānika dhutaṅga

As soon as a practitioner of the susānika dhutaṅga settles down on a spot (with the intention to remain on it), even for a short moment, he breaks his dhutaṅga.

According to the texts of the "aṅguttaranikaya", it is taught that the practitioner of the susānika dhutaṅga can go out of his charnel soon before dawn without breaking his dhutaṅga. Nevertheless, he breaks it from the very day when he doesn't proceed to a charnel. In the same manner, if he comes out of the charnel before dawn, he breaks his dhutaṅga.

 

The discipline to be observed by the practitioner of the susānika dhutaṅga

According to the «visuddhi magga», the bhikkhu who practises the susānika dhutaṅga «must have a few activities and light means of livelihood (a few belongings) only». Thus, it is not proper that such a bhikkhu dwells on such a spot while doing very visible things, such as: building up a footpath, a shelter, utilising a bed, a large carpet, installing a large water store (for drinking or providing for various needs), teaching the dhamma, giving meditation instructions, giving a teaching, etc.

It is very good, on the other hand, to dwell in a charnel, like the mahāthera Mahāsu, who dwelt sixty years non-stop in a charnel, and nobody ever came to know about it.

This dhutaṅga is very difficult to put into practice. Most of individuals are not eligible for adopting such a practice.

For practising this dhutaṅga, it is indispensable not to fear feelings of disgust and fright, it is necessary to be very courageous, fearless and tenacious. For this reason, before starting the practice of such a dhutaṅga, it is convenient to proceed to a charnel during the day time and to minutely observe all the characteristics that such a spot is made of. Then, it is convenient to proceed back to it again, but at night-time, in order to observe in it the aforesaid characteristics. In a charnel, the daytime strongly contrasts with the night-time. Indeed, even though the spot remains the same, it becomes, to most of individuals, far more frightening during the night time as compared with the daytime. Some scaring thoughts can easily appear owing to the distorted sights arising out of the night. By watching a man or a dog, for instance, we do not know what it is about and we can easily imagine having seen dangerous things or beings. A minute study of a charnel during the daytime yields the advantages to know all its elements; owing to this fact, once the night has fallen, these elements have no more reasons to be frightening.

Thus, it is convenient for a bhikkhu to adopt the susānika dhutaṅga only once he has made sure he got entirely rid of any fright likely to manifest, should he dwell in a charnel at night-time.

Encouragement to the practise of the susānika dhutaṅga

Given that we are constantly coming across dead people, in the course of practice of this dhutaṅga, we are no longer scared of death. Buddha told:

«appamādo amataṃ padaṃ pamādo maccunopadaṃ»

«those who are inattentive constantly die; those who are heedful never die.»

Those who know how to take benefit from this word can rapidly attain the realisation of nibbāna.

By dwelling in a charnel, we are put into the position of frequently watching corpses. By seeing that, we can easily do away with the attachment to sensuous pleasures.

A burmese proverb is telling us: «If you don't want to die, always go to the cemetery! Don't forget that you will also ultimately die!»

From the great http://en.dhammadana.org/sangha/dhutanga/residence/dh11.htm

 

While it might be quite different, this reminds me of the folks I saw all over the place in Haiti, who were living in the cemeteries. I'm sure they approach things a bit differently though. It just made me think of their lives and practices.

 

What I found most interesting is that they didn't need to hide their practices like we do here in the west. This was very refreshing to see. As with most countries the general population had no interest in the cemeteries for the most part, but in this case they also didn't look twice at the folks with a bonfire who were doing offerings right in the middle of the cemetery.

 

yeah ... sorry about that, if I doubled someone, I was reading all the replies but frankly, some of them were just silly and ill-informed opinion and I got impatient

Hmmm ... v.interesting question! In my case it was a visualisation (in a fully fitted out Kagyu temple) so I ended up in some amazing old Tibetan graveyard (in my 'imagination') (also the trumpets, bells and chanting in deep guttural Tibetan helped )

 

I just spent far too long replying to each bit with much thought and detail... and it vanished .

 

I'll just sum it up and say thank you for the insights .

[Nungali]

Totally diff aspect; Voodoo rite in graveyard (not Haiti but in Australia)

 

First time at voodoo ceremony ... very impressed, went off wonderfully, great ritual experience, powerfully magical, put a lot in context afterwards ... but after the rite someone goes "Let's go down to the cemetery ."

 

I am all; ' Here we go! Hope they don't spoil a great night ... I am going to go because I hate what some people do in cemeteries ''' gonna keep an eye on these voodoo dudes.

 

Wonderful as well, they cleaned the graves, straightened some headstones. tidied up and put some flowers on neglected looking graves, good on em! Nice 'meditation'.

[Isimsiz Biri]

Earth bound spirits are poor beings which need help. We frequently help them to pass to other world. But again, one has to know what he/she does.

[suninmyeyes]

The part which impressed me, was the willingness to give up everything (including comfy clothing) and live in the cremation grounds for 12 years, to become closer to their deities! I have a student who left to, for the second time, spend the rest of his life in a monastery in prayer non-stop. While I couldn't do either of these things, I have much respect for such devotion, in whichever way it is practiced.

 

Honestly though, I'd be the one with the REI sleeping bag if my teacher told me to go to charnel grounds... .

OK I get you now .

 

However just meditation or qigong at cemetary , why not maybe one day ? I do love challenege and testing level of detachment . I am not saying I wouldnt be scared though .. or that I would not run away if worst comes to worst .

 

Have spent about 3 months doing practise at this place at the edge of one village with burning grounds just some meters to the right near garden . None ever wanted to buy that place for long time becouse of taboo and fear of spirits and ghosts , but I never had any expirience with them whatsoever while there .

 

 

Anyway some of the stuff you have mentioned sounds interesting , what do(did) you do Voodoo ? Or ? ( sorry , dont even know wherther you are willing to share ..)

[BaguaKicksAss]

Yes I have an odd perspective, I see many different things as spiritual, and equal (but different) .

 

Cemeteries are very unspooky during the daytime, and the residents in general tend to be sleeping...

 

I remember one meditation I did in a cemetery once... I sat under a large tree just doing my regular meditation. It is likely there were candles and incense involved, I don' recall now. Then upon opening my eyes I saw a physical figure near the other side of the very small cemetery. The figure wasn't quite human shaped, but was definitely solid. (When I see spirits, they tend to be more translucent to me). Well needless to say I was rather nervous. So I sat under the tree some more, and the spirit moved around a bit, but mostly stayed in the same spot. Well my meditation was over, so I eventually had to get up the gumption to walk by this spirit to head back out of the cemetery. Boy did that take a lot of nerve! Fortunately when I got within a couple of feet of the spirit on my way out, it nodded, then vanished. I found out afterwards from my teacher that it was likely the guardian of that particular cemetery. It was a very interesting experience, but I am happy to say that it has not happened again .

 

Well now I know from your comment above, how to obtain low cost property . I'd guess you in particular didn't have any negative experiences because you weren't fearing them, or expecting bad things to happen.

 

I work with a couple of Lwa from the teachings I have received from my teacher (and a bit from in Haiti of course), but do not really practice Vodoun. In other words I have not been initiated, and it is not a daily practice. I was fortunate to learn some things about it though; very interesting path. I also received a healing ritual while I was in Haiti, which was very interesting.

[Nungali]

Was that a typo? Loa?

 

Mine was Simbi la Flambau (sic ?) fire serpent;t great for me as here in Oz Rainbow serpent is a major' general creation totem' (and personal totem spirit , also Nugali lizard ) When I returned home from the Voodoo ceremony, in another part of the state, I had a physical vision of a sunset with a giant snake with an open mouth thrashing about in lava like clouds and all sunset red and orange - blew me away!

 

Which loas did you encounter ... did you draw up their veve ? (A bundle of personal spiritual questions aren't I ? )

[BaguaKicksAss]

We worked with the more common Lwa, as well as a few personal house ones .

This post was interesting enough I'm going to try again to reply and hope my reply doesn't vanish into thin air...

 

yeah ... sorry about that, if I doubled someone, I was reading all the replies but frankly, some of them were just silly and ill-informed opinion and I got impatient

 

No apologies needed, your post explained it extremely well and actually led to a greater understanding of a few things for me, thank you

 

Hmmm ... v.interesting question! In my case it was a visualisation (in a fully fitted out Kagyu temple) so I ended up in some amazing old Tibetan graveyard (in my 'imagination') (also the trumpets, bells and chanting in deep guttural Tibetan helped )

 

Hmmm, perhaps you were actually there on some levels...

 

On the western level I would use a different formular and although not quiet a graveyard visualisation (most westerners would consider it a 'descent into Hell' - but it is v.similar to Chod in many ways); like first part of V * OTO (western R+C Bodhisatva like ceremony) and Levi's Hymn to Honarius (I think it's called). Much more suited to the Western mind that may have not encountered eastern systems IMO.

 

I have done similar, but not from that tradition, more like my own (and Egyptian) based on the same principals .

 

Sorry again, that is a quote (inverted commas) from a Lama on the third site down on google search ... I meant to post the web address but didn't (I am still having trouble driving this thing ... coming back from google I lost a long post yesterday )

 

Yeah I didnt notice those quote marks until I had already replied and was re-reading your post. Ah well, I figured if you quoted it, that you knew something of such matters .

 

What I would mean by that term is ... hmmm ; here we go ... (again, apologies a complex subject but trying to be brief)

Daimonic forces and entities are integral and beneficial IF acknowledged the right way. if not they seem to get lodged on to human identity, somehow acquiring the human need for individual ego identity (which they aren't ... not their fault WE do that to them), if this isn't addressed then they can become 'complexes' and eventually can be seen as wholly separate invading entities or demons (which is an illusion created by human' traits' mixing with Daimonic ones the wrong way. One could say they are split off parts of ourselves that are seeking individual identity (because we haven't been able to 'own them'.)

 

Are you going with the just aspects of ourselves thing, or that they can change from one to another depending on our approach? I have personally seen both arise. I do definitely feel that there are some which are completely irrelevant to us too though.

 

The Lama whose words I wrote probably wouldn't a agree with this but would probably agree with the remedy i.e. these entities now have a right ( and those that created them ... or others ... have a responsibility to assist) to spiritual evolution (I'm a bit rusty here ... I would need to break out my old Goetic diary / record ... it makes more sense what is written in there)

 

Goetia? Verum method is my preferred in these matters. Though I don't think any of them have a responsibility to us, though some will help out. Though I also don't think most of the Goetia folks need our help in spiritual matters...

 

No ... that's a very reasonable question ... I had a much better site reference that explained Chod in a great way (from some professor in a US university , but I would have to find it again (I might be able to get back here with it. ... but basically it explains a lot better what the above guy didn't explain too well - IMO)

 

Feel free to share any other links you may have, which explain it well.

 

Scary , interesting, enlightening, colour, sound, cacophonous magical instruments, rounds of chanting, skeleton dancing tankas, .... all elements of a good tantric ritual ( focusing intent using the active mind instead of 'no mind' or 'singular mind').

 

That description sounds more like my trips into the forest .

 

It does seem weird to some but we need to remember this tradition came from, in part, old Tibetan Shamanism and shamanic initiation and transformation (in the 'otherworld' or by visualisation) can be a very 'gruesome' process.

 

That definitely puts it into perspective and context, and makes a lot of sense to me. Most places seem to scrap the experience and knowledge of the local shamans for whatever newer spirituality or religion has come about, it is unfortunate.

 

THE MAGICIAN

 

[TRANSLATED FROM ELIPHAZ LEVI’S VERSION OF THE FAMOUS HYMN]

On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

I heard a Lama say that in the past, and considering the mind set of some Tibetan Monks and they way they had grown up and been conditioned in their culture, family, etc. that there was a real chance that they may actually die of 'fright' if doing the ceremony traditionally and they are not ready for it.

 

Reminds me too much like that whole force them into a triangle with God names and rude evocations by GD magicians stuff to me... though I could be being biased since it is translated by Levi . I still haven't forgiven him for that one book he wrote lololol.

[Nungali]

O M G !!!! I just spent over an hour answering you and rewriting what I wrote more correctly ... set the curser a line up to correct spelling and hit the space bar ... gone!

 

What is going on here ???? Lost .....

 

Maybe I will try again by coping to MS word and pasting in reply in one go ?

 

When I am not feeling so gutted by that!

[BaguaKicksAss]

Yeah on long ones I select all txt, copy... but if the space bar did it in... a cntrl z will restore is usually... Uhm too late now right?

[Nungali]

Hopefully it should reappear in a day or so .

[Nungali]

Longer response via pm, but for here;

We worked with the more common Lwa, as well as a few personal house ones .

This post was interesting enough I'm going to try again to reply and hope my reply doesn't vanish into thin air...

 

 

No apologies needed, your post explained it extremely well and actually led to a greater understanding of a few things for me, thank you

 

 

Hmmm, perhaps you were actually there on some levels...

 

Maybe .... the 'imaginative function' is a powerful tool.

 

I have done similar, but not from that tradition, more like my own (and Egyptian) based on the same principals .

 

Hand up ... Egyptophile here ! (Or I should say both hands up and palms to the east?)

 

Yeah I didnt notice those quote marks until I had already replied and was re-reading your post. Ah well, I figured if you quoted it, that you knew something of such matters .

a small little smidge of such matters

 

Are you going with the just aspects of ourselves thing, or that they can change from one to another depending on our approach? I have personally seen both arise. I do definitely feel that there are some which are completely irrelevant to us too though.

 

 

Goetia? Verum method is my preferred in these matters. Though I don't think any of them have a responsibility to us, though some will help out. Though I also don't think most of the Goetia folks need our help in spiritual matters...

 

 

Feel free to share any other links you may have, which explain it well.

Oopps ... forgot about that. ... I was just googling 'chod rite' and that site came up on the first few pages on an university or similar address.

 

That description sounds more like my trips into the forest .

 

 

That definitely puts it into perspective and context, and makes a lot of sense to me. Most places seem to scrap the experience and knowledge of the local shamans for whatever newer spirituality or religion has come about, it is unfortunate.

they do ... but after a time that approach causes all sorts of merde to break out ... like any thing that is squashed under the carpet

 

Reminds me too much like that whole force them into a triangle with God names and rude evocations by GD magicians stuff to me... though I could be being biased since it is translated by Levi . I still haven't forgiven him for that one book he wrote lololol.

Ha! Had to put my glasses on to check ... RUDE evocations ... okay ( Phew! ... nude Victorian GD magicians evoking nekkid - YOIKS! )

 

Certain mindsets require certain ceremonies ... or are invented by them.. 'GD style magic stuff' is quiet Emperor / mars / martial / forcing style ... one can (again, depending on the mindset and development), approach the subject and/or practice from an Empress / Venus / persuasive style ...( or just drug them with a magic potion so they cant help themselves { venes, venenum, venom, poison, charm, magic philtre } no offence to Venusians, but anyone who has been 'shot with Cupid's arrow' will agree, or those who have had another shot with cupids arrow with their name on it

[Nungali]

Just did a meditation in the graveyard.

 

Phew ... just got back from a visit to hell ( a bit like it was last visit ... before I even heard of taobums ). Its true ... there ISNT a separate hell for all the different religions (why would there be ... that would make hell a better place, Hell's not about being a better place).

 

'The Pit" ... who are those poor souls trapped down there ?

 

It looked like I couldn't post in the pit, a shame ... I wanted to post ;

 

O Lord, deliver me from hell's great fear and gloom!

 

Loose thou my spirit from the larvae of the tomb!

 

I seek them in their dread abodes without affright:

 

On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

 

 

 

I bid the night conceive the glittering hemisphere.

 

Arise, O sun, arise! O moon, shine white and clear!

 

I seek them in their dread abodes without affright:

 

On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

 

 

 

Their faces and their shapes are terrible and strange.

 

These devils by my might to angels I will change.

 

These nameless horrors I address without affright:

 

On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

 

 

 

These are the phantoms pale of mine astonied view,

 

Yet none but I their blasted beauty can renew;

 

For to the abyss of hell I plunge without affright:

 

On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

 

 

Sorry , if I wrote about something 'up here' that I am not supposed to mention ... hey, I'm new here <shrug> it was broken before I got here.

Edited October 14, 2013 by Nungali

[Isimsiz Biri]

Just did a meditation in the graveyard.

 

Phew ... just got back from a visit to hell ( a bit like it was last visit ... before I even heard of taobums ). Its true ... there ISNT a separate hell for all the different religions (why would there be ... that would make hell a better place, Hell's not about being a better place).

 

'The Pit" ... who are those poor souls trapped down there ?

 

It looked like I couldn't post in the pit, a shame ... I wanted to post ;

 

O Lord, deliver me from hell's great fear and gloom!

 

Loose thou my spirit from the larvae of the tomb!

 

I seek them in their dread abodes without affright:

 

On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

 

 

 

I bid the night conceive the glittering hemisphere.

 

Arise, O sun, arise! O moon, shine white and clear!

 

I seek them in their dread abodes without affright:

 

On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

 

 

 

Their faces and their shapes are terrible and strange.

 

These devils by my might to angels I will change.

 

These nameless horrors I address without affright:

 

On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

 

 

 

These are the phantoms pale of mine astonied view,

 

Yet none but I their blasted beauty can renew;

 

For to the abyss of hell I plunge without affright:

 

On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

 

 

Sorry , if I wrote about something 'up here' that I am not supposed to mention ... hey, I'm new here <shrug> it was broken before I got here.

Dear sir,

 

Whatever you are doing in a graveyard, is useful neither for you nor for those earthbound spirits.

[Nungali]

< Looks around for the appropriate hat to wear … AHA! – the turban ! >

 

My Brother,

 

Peace be upon you.

 

Why do you speak to me so? For what else can I answer you with but;

 

I was trying to do the very same thing you were … you should read my last post carefully. I might accuse you of the very same thing … as I saw you there myself … you were foolishly battling with a ‘lost soul’ were you not?

 

My sin was I arrived too late, I wandered in to see what was there, I saw suffering and distress and my immediate reaction was, I intended to offer succour. I saw you there and I tried to call out but you could not hear me … I was not allowed to speak.

 

You were trying, you were saying “Breathe in from your nose slowly. Breathe out from your mouth real slowly with a haaaa sound. Focus on One Point (dantian) Persevere. You can do it.”

 

Admirable , but more appropriate to offer that advice to a brother fellow believer who is having a crisis in spirit or of faith (in that case, I see how you would be a rock and persistent, I saw how you stood firm, you kept insisting “You can do it”). But that man was not of your own faith, I think you know what went wrong initially and how you let yourself end up where you did? A different approach earlier might have stopped it from all 'going to hell’

.

So I came back to the graveyard (thread) and wrote of my experience as it seemed relevant, I did write I had been to ‘The Pit’.

 

Or this all could have been acted out as a Sufi story. It would go something like this;

 

“A Brother of our Order was leaning against a tree by the road in the shade, another brother came along the road, and not recognising the first and being tired from the heat of the day also took rest in the shade, the first recognised him though and turned to the second brother and said “I have just come from the graveyard, a place where old dead things are left lying around. I did a meditation there.”

 

The other said, “Dear sir, Whatever you are doing in a graveyard, is useful neither for you nor for those earthbound spirits. “

The first answered,

 

My Brother,

 

Peace be upon you.

 

Why do you speak to me so? For what else can I answer you with but;

 

for the very reason you were there also my brother … I saw you there.

 

Would you like to help me write a Sufi story?

 

I hope so, as you and I are part of it. All we need to do is figure out who of us is Mullah Nasudin ...and who is the confused spectator ... or who is the spectator and who is the spectre perhaps?

 

I hope you want to help write the story because it is already written and you helped me write it. It goes like this;

 

“A Brother of our Order passed by a graveyard, he sensed souls and spirits in distress, … “

 

And around and around it goes like a snake swallowing its own tail … until it finally ends with the first brother saying , “Enough! I have work in Heaven and I have work in Hell. For I have one eye fixed on the glory of Hallaj and the other on the Peacock’s Angel. How did YOU end up there my brother? A different approach earlier may have stopped both of you descending … and dragging all those other souls with you. My faith is in God but my birth Yezidi, what is your reason for descending to hell?”

 

Now THAT would have made a good Sufi story!

 

Focus on One Point , Extend Ki, Keep Weight Underside, Have ‘No Mind’. Breathe. Persevere. You can do it.

 

Live your tradition.

 

Peace.

 

 

 

Dear sir,

Whatever you are doing in a graveyard, is useful neither for you nor for those earthbound spirits.

[Isimsiz Biri]

< Looks around for the appropriate hat to wear AHA! the turban ! >

My Brother,

Peace be upon you.

Why do you speak to me so? For what else can I answer you with but;

I was trying to do the very same thing you were you should read my last post carefully. I might accuse you of the very same thing as I saw you there myself you were foolishly battling with a lost soul were you not?

My sin was I arrived too late, I wandered in to see what was there, I saw suffering and distress and my immediate reaction was, I intended to offer succour. I saw you there and I tried to call out but you could not hear me I was not allowed to speak.

You were trying, you were saying Breathe in from your nose slowly. Breathe out from your mouth real slowly with a haaaa sound. Focus on One Point (dantian) Persevere. You can do it.

Admirable , but more appropriate to offer that advice to a brother fellow believer who is having a crisis in spirit or of faith (in that case, I see how you would be a rock and persistent, I saw how you stood firm, you kept insisting You can do it). But that man was not of your own faith, I think you know what went wrong initially and how you let yourself end up where you did? A different approach earlier might have stopped it from all 'going to hell

So I came back to the graveyard (thread) and wrote of my experience as it seemed relevant, I did write I had been to The Pit.

Or this all could have been acted out as a Sufi story. It would go something like this;

"A Brother of our Order was leaning against a tree by the road in the shade, another brother came along the road, and not recognising the first and being tired from the heat of the day also took rest in the shade, the first recognised him though and turned to the second brother and said I have just come from the graveyard, a place where old dead things are left lying around. I did a meditation there.

The other said, Dear sir, Whatever you are doing in a graveyard, is useful neither for you nor for those earthbound spirits.

The first answered,

My Brother,

Peace be upon you.

Why do you speak to me so? For what else can I answer you with but;

for the very reason you were there also my brother I saw you there.

Would you like to help me write a Sufi story?

I hope so, as you and I are part of it. All we need to do is figure out who of us is Mullah Nasudin ...and who is the confused spectator ... or who is the spectator and who is the spectre perhaps?

I hope you want to help write the story because it is already written and you helped me write it. It goes like this;

A Brother of our Order passed by a graveyard, he sensed souls and spirits in distress,

And around and around it goes like a snake swallowing its own tail until it finally ends with the first brother saying , Enough! I have work in Heaven and I have work in Hell. For I have one eye fixed on the glory of Hallaj and the other on the Peacocks Angel. How did YOU end up there my brother? A different approach earlier may have stopped both of you descending and dragging all those other souls with you. My faith is in God but my birth Yezidi, what is your reason for descending to hell?

Now THAT would have made a good Sufi story!

Focus on One Point , Extend Ki, Keep Weight Underside, Have No Mind. Breathe. Persevere. You can do it.

Live your tradition.

Peace.

 

I have read your meaningless post. I did not invite you to be a Muslim. So your statements are funny.

 

I said a very simple thing: Do not whatever you are doing in that graveyard. You are torturing earth bound spirits of that graveyard in order to satisfy your Nafs which is already strong.

 

Stop telling Sufi stories because you do not have the pure heart necessary for the nur of them.

 

If you want to clean the rust and debris in your heart, pray to Allah.

 

The descending to Hell issue: Good luck and peace to you as you will need in Hell.

 

Bye

[Zhongyongdaoist]

BaguaKicksAss and Nungali

I don't wish to derail this interesting thread and I appreciate both of your fascinating contributions to it, but the following exchange leads me to believe that neither of you understands the position of the Golden Dawn in the Western Esoteric Tradition and the unique and important contribution that it makes to it:

 

 

We worked with the more common Lwa, as well as a few personal house ones .
Reminds me too much like that whole force them into a triangle with God names and rude evocations by GD magicians stuff to me...

Ha! Had to put my glasses on to check ... RUDE evocations ... okay ( Phew! ... nude Victorian GD magicians evoking nekkid - YOIKS! )

Certain mindsets require certain ceremonies ... or are invented by them.. 'GD style magic stuff' is quiet Emperor / mars / martial / forcing style ... one can (again, depending on the mindset and development), approach the subject and/or practice from an Empress / Venus / persuasive style ...( or just drug them with a magic potion so they cant help themselves { venes, venenum, venom, poison, charm, magic philtre } no offence to Venusians, but anyone who has been 'shot with Cupid's arrow' will agree, or those who have had another shot with cupids arrow with their name on it

 

The following is a quote from the Fourth Book attributed to Agrippa as it appears in Barrett's The Magus:

 

Then, with all these things provided, let the exorcist and his companions go into the circle. In the first place, let him consecrate the circle and every thing he uses; which being done in a solemn and firm manner, with convenient gesture and countenance, let him begin to pray with a loud voice after the manner following. First, by making an oration or prayer to God, and then intreating the good spirits; but we should read some prayer, or psalm, or gospel, for our defence in the first place. After those prayers and orations are said, let him begin to invocate the spirit which he desireth, with a gentle and loving enchantment to all the coasts of the world, with a commemoration of his own authority and power. Then rest and look round to see if any spirit does appear; which if he delays, then let him repeat his invocation, as above said, until he hath done it three times; and if the spirit is obstinate and will not appear, then let the invocator begin to conjure him with divine power; but so that all his conjurations and commemorations do agree with the nature and office of the spirit, and reiterate the same three times, from stronger to stronger, using contumelies, cursings, punishments, suspension from his power and office, and the like. (http://www.sacred-texts.com/grim/magus/ma245.htm)

I chose The Magus because it would have been more readily available and thus influential during the 19^th Century than the original. It can be seen within its wider context here:

 

http://www.esotericarchives.com/agrippa/agrippa4.htm#chap12

 

I will note that I am familiar with Wierus' statement that Agrippa did not write the Fourth Book, but I am also aware that he then stated that it was otherwise worthy to be included with his teachers own works, a judgment without which I would be much more hesitant to cite the Fourth Book, and I am sorry that I cannot now readily reference that now. (Too big a memory, too many books!).

A far too influential example of these types of 'rude evocations' can be found at the end of the process of the Goetia, which can be reviewed here:

http://www.esotericarchives.com/solomon/goetia.htm

With this type of information available to people several centuries before the inception of the Golden Dawn, why should such 'rude evocations' be blamed specifically on the Golden Dawn? And more importantly what about them can be specifically tied to some aspect of the Golden Dawn ritual system? And by 'ritual system' I mean the Golden Dawn initiatory rituals and the magical procedures derived from them and not some ancillary material, such as the rituals of the pentagram and hexagram. The Golden Dawn ritual system provides a specific context for ritual within a very powerful formal system. Within that context it is possible to perform a wide variety of traditional material, some rude, some sweet as honey, it depends on the operator and the needs of the operation. This ritual context also changes the meaning of certain aspects of tradition that may appear within it, and so it is not possible to make superficial comparisons.

By the way medieval evocation is the Western counterpart to Daoist military magic, of which Thunder Magic is the fundamental component. So such martial 'rudeness' is not limited to the West. Even the name 'evocation' comes from an ancient Roman military rite in which the Gods of a besieged city were 'called out' of that city and invited to join the Roman side.

 

Finally I wish to make clear that in general based on your posts I find both of you interesting and well informed, but based on the above I see no reason to think that you are well informed about the Golden Dawn, I could be wrong about this and welcome correction, I am only basing this on the above exchange and some things BaguaKicksAss has posted before. Nungali you are new here, but you are obviously an interesting and valuable contributor to the Tao Bums. BaguaKicksAss, has of course shown her value here many times before.

[silent thunder]

I used to spend time just hanging out in a graveyard.

Had no idea what meditation was, but would spend time pondering the gravestones and names, wondering what their stories were and where their smiles ended up.

It was a peaceful place.

[konchog uma]

"Everything you Love and Everything you Hate, come from the Same Source."

 

good quote

[silent thunder]

"Everything you Love and Everything you Hate, come from the Same Source."

 

good quote

 

That epiphany released so much of my blocked energy.

It takes energy to always judge, always defend and attack.

I strive to take life less personally, graveyards are perhaps effective at expanding awareness of this...

[BaguaKicksAss]

BaguaKicksAss and Nungali

 

I don't wish to derail this interesting thread and I appreciate both of your fascinating contributions to it, but the following exchange leads me to believe that neither of you understands the position of the Golden Dawn in the Western Esoteric Tradition and the unique and important contribution that it makes to it:

 

 

The following is a quote from the Fourth Book attributed to Agrippa as it appears in Barrett's The Magus:

 

 

I chose The Magus because it would have been more readily available and thus influential during the 19^th Century than the original. It can be seen within its wider context here:

 

http://www.esotericarchives.com/agrippa/agrippa4.htm#chap12

 

 

I will note that I am familiar with Wierus' statement that Agrippa did not write the Fourth Book, but I am also aware that he then stated that it was otherwise worthy to be included with his teachers own works, a judgment without which I would be much more hesitant to cite the Fourth Book, and I am sorry that I cannot now readily reference that now. (Too big a memory, too many books!).

 

A far too influential example of these types of 'rude evocations' can be found at the end of the process of the Goetia, which can be reviewed here:

 

http://www.esotericarchives.com/solomon/goetia.htm

 

With this type of information available to people several centuries before the inception of the Golden Dawn, why should such 'rude evocations' be blamed specifically on the Golden Dawn? And more importantly what about them can be specifically tied to some aspect of the Golden Dawn ritual system? And by 'ritual system' I mean the Golden Dawn initiatory rituals and the magical procedures derived from them and not some ancillary material, such as the rituals of the pentagram and hexagram. The Golden Dawn ritual system provides a specific context for ritual within a very powerful formal system. Within that context it is possible to perform a wide variety of traditional material, some rude, some sweet as honey, it depends on the operator and the needs of the operation. This ritual context also changes the meaning of certain aspects of tradition that may appear within it, and so it is not possible to make superficial comparisons.

 

By the way medieval evocation is the Western counterpart to Daoist military magic, of which Thunder Magic is the fundamental component. So such martial 'rudeness' is not limited to the West. Even the name 'evocation' comes from an ancient Roman military rite in which the Gods of a besieged city were 'called out' of that city and invited to join the Roman side.

 

Finally I wish to make clear that in general based on your posts I find both of you interesting and well informed, but based on the above I see no reason to think that you are well informed about the Golden Dawn, I could be wrong about this and welcome correction, I am only basing this on the above exchange and some things BaguaKicksAss has posted before. Nungali you are new here, but you are obviously an interesting and valuable contributor to the Tao Bums. BaguaKicksAss, has of course shown her value here many times before.

 

Oh don't worry about going off topic, as I'm pretty sure I have already, and nothing wrong with calling someone on their lack of info (or biases), you always are so respectful in your posts, thank you. Well that and it is far less off topic than most posts get around here . If worse comes to worse it can be split.

 

My posts about the GD come more from personal bias than lack of knowledge . Though I don't necessarily claim to have vast amounts of knowledge about the system, just some from some time of practicing the system. I don't think I'd claim knowledge of a system like that until at least Chesed :>. However my biases come mostly from the GD practitioners that I have worked with over the years. Also the GD practitioners I have had lengthy discussions about practices with. Though the few dozen I have met and/or worked with definitely don't make up the whole, and perhaps I just happened upon the inexperienced ones (even though some led lodges).

 

I am more for the Enochian approach (re the diaries) if working in this approach, or perhaps the Abramelin approach. From my perspective of these two approaches the spirits are still honoured in a sense, but also most definitely not run wild, and they are commanded by the powers of Deity. The magician has also through much prayer and dedication united best they can with their Deity, to have the power and/or authority to do such things. However all that said, I still go more with the as equals, but do not get one over on me approach. It is not for everyone by far, but what I have been taught on my path, and what works for me. Similar to the OTA in some ways, though I do not work with the same Deity nor the pentagram and etc. rituals.

 

Unfortunately the GD folks I have worked with have more been shaking from fear in their circles of power, or spending quite a bit of time and energy on letting the spirits know how they are not worthy of the magician (or anything for that matter) and lowly, and so forth. Even from some very high ranking folks I have seen the approach through fear instead of divine love and so forth. This approach to me did not feel martial. I mentioned GD in particular as Levi is one of their primary influences.

 

Yes the old grimoires are just as rude, if not more so . I don't personally work with the prayers included in them either. The whole drawing the circle in the earth, the triangle and so forth I do use from time to time though (or just bring a pre-made circle along with me). Though I'm more inclined towards a fire and such. Thinking back, I should have perhaps put GD/Christianized versions of the grimoires.

 

But yes, I will admit a GD bias from my experiences with them, and from *some* (not all) folks from other very similar orders I have also worked with, or talked with. Especially the ones who get themselves into too much trouble with such practices and call me up to fix things (sorry, rant! lol).

 

PS, Peterson's editions of all things are awesome.

[silent thunder]

All beaches are graveyards.

The sand of our ancestors

and our children's grandchildren.

Edited October 14, 2013 by silent thunder

[Nungali]

I have read your meaningless post.

 

 

Is it meaningless or is it you did not understand it? It has meaning but you need to read below the surface and read it carefully if you DO want to understand it ... otherwise ... okay , think of it what you will.

 

 

 

I did not invite you to be a Muslim.

 

That is correct, you did not, I agree with you.

 

 

So your statements are funny

 

On one level they are funny ... actually they are two type of 'funny'. But were you not taught to look deeply, for 7 levels of meaning?

 

 

.I said a very simple thing: Do not whatever you are doing in that graveyard.

 

And I thank you, and I will be obedient to your instruction.

 

 

Since you asked I have not been back to the Pit section ( the graveyard of dead and finished things) of the tao bums forum and I have not read the posts again about " Jesus a fictional character ? “ and I have not read where you were arguing with alwayson again. My friend the graveyard is an analogy for the Pit. Try to read deeply, on more than one level.

 

You are torturing earth bound spirits of that graveyard in order to satisfy your Nafs which is already strong.

I do not know what you mean by that word as my ignorant and limited understanding of the Koran has not led me to understand what the Nafs actually is, so I am not sure what you mean by that; do you mean a general concept of the self, my psyche generally and all of its parts as some type of undefined conglomerate, perhaps you mean my ego … but in what sense of ego, the modern western sense , the new age sense, Freudian meaning , or the soul.

I assume you mean my Nafs is in an unrefined state? My ego is as some understand it as a base consciousness. Or do you mean in its root form as ‘Nephesh’ or Nefesh … Nafesh … Nafs? A type of instinctual animal soul?

 

I guess you are saying I have a strong ego , in the negative sense

 

Ahhh … that may be it? You are saying I am on an ‘ego trip’ ?

 

Stop telling Sufi stories because you do not have the pure heart necessary for the nur of them.

How can I stop telling them when you help me write them? Does a dusty mirror not reflect some of the nur ? Is it not better to some nur , even a little than ظلام

 

If you want to clean the rust and debris in your heart, pray to Allah.

Of course.

The descending to Hell issue: Good luck and peace to you as you will need in Hell

Hell is a تشابه جزئي ..

or

of the pit here in tao bumsاستعارة

 

I have read your meaningless post. I did not invite you to be a Muslim. So your statements are funny.

I said a very simple thing: Do not whatever you are doing in that graveyard. You are torturing earth bound spirits of that graveyard in order to satisfy your Nafs which is already strong.

Stop telling Sufi stories because you do not have the pure heart necessary for the nur of them.

If you want to clean the rust and debris in your heart, pray to Allah.

The descending to Hell issue: Good luck and peace to you as you will need in Hell.

Bye

please forgive me if I translated wrong as I . I hope I did not write 'my mandarin needs candles' or something else wrong.

BaguaKicksAss and Nungali

I don't ...

Hi Z, I was just about to answer, its late here and an old friend just appeared out of nowhere so I will answer you later. I have been reading some of your threads in this part of site and enjoyed them ... I haven't responded as yet as you requested that the reader read some Plato ... so I am catching up, thanks for your response and input

[Isimsiz Biri]

I am too tired to reply Nungali's post. It is once again meaningless. He seems to hear about some Islamic terminology yet he knows nothing. The subject is meditation in graveyard. I am saying that you will give a difficult time to earth bound spirits.