Question About Supporting My Nephew's Catholic Upbringing

[RyanO]

Hi Bums,

 

I ended up going to my nephew's (he is 8) First Communion service this past weekend, and am wondering how y'all feel about it.

 

I was originally not going to go out of protest, because I feel strongly about the dangers of religious indoctrination. But, I decided to go because my absence would not be interpreted that way and my presence was important to my nephew.

 

Obviously you don't know about the dynamics of my family so I'm not really looking for advice, just thoughts. My brother-in-law is a strong catholic and I'm conflicted about how the approach the subject of religion with my nephew. He's trying to raise his son a certain way and I'm not sure how much I should interfere. My nephews knows I'm not catholic, and a couple of times I've told him I don't believe in Hell. Other than that, I haven't talked to him about it much, though we have a close relationship. I don't talk to his Dad about religion, he's in too deep!

 

Any thoughts/similar family experiences?

[Cloudhand]

Hi Bums,

 

I ended up going to my nephew's (he is 8) First Communion service this past weekend, and am wondering how y'all feel about it.

 

I was originally not going to go out of protest, because I feel strongly about the dangers of religious indoctrination. But, I decided to go because my absence would not be interpreted that way and my presence was important to my nephew.

 

Obviously you don't know about the dynamics of my family so I'm not really looking for advice, just thoughts. My brother-in-law is a strong catholic and I'm conflicted about how the approach the subject of religion with my nephew. He's trying to raise his son a certain way and I'm not sure how much I should interfere. My nephews knows I'm not catholic, and a couple of times I've told him I don't believe in Hell. Other than that, I haven't talked to him about it much, though we have a close relationship. I don't talk to his Dad about religion, he's in too deep!

 

Any thoughts/similar family experiences?

 

 

Everyone is free to believe in what they want to. What ever it is Tao, Zen, Sufi, Roman Catholic ect. Do you know anyone who has died and came back and said what is what. To take a person nature away is to lose your owne. Best Wishes on your plight. Cloud

[RyanO]

Everyone is free to believe in what they want to. What ever it is Tao, Zen, Sufi, Roman Catholic ect. Do you know anyone who has died and came back and said what is what. To take a person nature away is to lose your owne. Best Wishes on your plight. Cloud

 

I wouldn't want to take away someone's freedom. Actually, that is what I think the indoctrination of a child does, and it sometimes has devastating consequences. But thanks for your suggestions nonetheless.

[Cloudhand]

I wouldn't want to take away someone's freedom. Actually, that is what I think the indoctrination of a child does, and it sometimes has devastating consequences. But thanks for your suggestions nonetheless.

 

 

Roman Catholic is not such a bad path to be on. It has strange rituals, incantations, incense, and there is nothing better then the latin mass. But its full of dogma. Chirist's life is true path to enlightment, Rome changed the teaching for the many and forgot the few. Peace Cloud

[fizix]

Don't let his mind become tainted by that ridiculous dogma - secretly indoctrinate him in the Way of experience!

 

Haha, jk, but really; don't ever force your own beliefs, but there's nothing wrong with subtly intriguing another to question their own beliefs, and subsequently show new doors of perception =)

[anatman]

not advice,but my own thoughts:

 

what we may feel on subjects may or may not mean anything to someone else.as you were not asked for your opinion,you should not give it.your nephew will possiblely respect you more as he gets older,and decides for himself what he finds to be correct.your brother in law on the other hand,just accept him for who and what he is.

 

now,my brother and one sister have stopped talking to me altogether since thanksgiving.that is a long story,but made short,they tried to corner me according to what they believe.when it didn't work,they got mad.oh well.

[gendao]

I wouldn't want to take away someone's freedom. Actually, that is what I think the indoctrination of a child does, and it sometimes has devastating consequences. But thanks for your suggestions nonetheless.

I agree, but unfortunately they as parents have jurisdiction over their child (not you). And I would respect those boundaries in general unless it's to prevent a serious transgression.

 

Although it does also frustrate me that as horrific a track record as the Catholic Church has had over its history...so many people still choose to remain such diehard followers..

Edited May 4, 2010 by vortex

[Cloudhand]

I agree, but unfortunately they as parents have jurisdiction over their child (not you). And I would respect those boundaries in general unless its to prevent a serious transgression.

 

Although it does also frustrate me that as horrific a track record as the Catholic Church has had over its history...so many people still choose to remain such diehard followers..

 

 

There is bad people everywhere you cant take one group and say its not so. Peace Cloud

[Aetherous]

My own opinion...

 

A father has a right to raise his son in his own way, and an uncle should have little say in that. Why? Because the father directly created the child, and also has to support him for many years. The uncle didn't, and doesn't have to.

[Marblehead]

I agree. It is the father's right to raise his child the way he wishes (within the law, of course).

 

When the child is old enough to ask questions you can be there to offer your opinions and then let him make his own decisions.

 

All is Tao.

 

Peace & Love!

Edited May 3, 2010 by Marblehead

[mYTHmAKER]

Hi Bums,

 

I ended up going to my nephew's (he is 8) First Communion service this past weekend, and am wondering how y'all feel about it.

 

I was originally not going to go out of protest, because I feel strongly about the dangers of religious indoctrination. But, I decided to go because my absence would not be interpreted that way and my presence was important to my nephew.

 

Obviously you don't know about the dynamics of my family so I'm not really looking for advice, just thoughts. My brother-in-law is a strong catholic and I'm conflicted about how the approach the subject of religion with my nephew. He's trying to raise his son a certain way and I'm not sure how much I should interfere. My nephews knows I'm not catholic, and a couple of times I've told him I don't believe in Hell. Other than that, I haven't talked to him about it much, though we have a close relationship. I don't talk to his Dad about religion, he's in too deep!

 

Any thoughts/similar family experiences?

 

Hang out with your nephew and answer any questions he has. don't lecture him. Don't tell him what right or wrong.

If he asks express your beliefs. You might turn him on to books when he is older.

Someday he may change thanks to your influence and again he might not. Follow the tao - offer no resistance.

[RyanO]

Well I agree with the consensus in this case, which is why I chose to go.

 

But of course there are lines that need to be drawn. Relying on ambiguous law may not be the best immediate option. What if he was involved with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter_Day_Saints

 

Abuse is abuse, but of course there are degrees. I maintain that indoctrinating a child with the belief that unbelievers will be tormented in Hell for eternity is a form of abuse. Say what you will, Hell is crucial doctrine in Christianity. I also think the teaching of sin is abusive.

 

Luckily in this case (and in most cases which is why Christianity is able to remain popular) such ideas are not stressed. The teaching is mostly benign so I think everyone's advice is sound.

[三江源]

Hi Bums,

.... and a couple of times I've told him I don't believe in Hell.

 

Hi Ryan. This is a good bit! It's good that he knows that belief is optional, and that there are alternative versions of everything, ideas wise.

 

My children had/ are having a C of E education at school and are utterly in a scoffing state of unbelief about it all because their teachers know nothing of shamanism or taoism,and make them sing songs they find meaningless all the time,( hymns!) so have lost all credibility as sources of information for them.

 

As I understand it, the worst thing about catholicism as an education is that it leaves a tendency toward guilt. Who knows, maybe having to live with guilt will be a spur for him to shake free of it and find freedom, a greater freedom than one who didnt have that spur. We just dont know.

 

Anyhow, he is lucky to have you as an uncle and just your being and what you are available to talk about will be a window to a wider reality.

 

Interesting that TS Eliot and Graham Green and others chose catholicism as their faith. There is obviously a lot of meat in it for some.

 

I remember loving singing certain christian hymns as a child like

"Glad that I live am I" :

• Glad that I live am I;
  That the sky is blue;
  Glad for the country lanes,
  And the fall of dew. After the sun the rain,
  After the rain, the sun,
  This is the way of life,
  Till the work be done.
   
  All that we need to do,
  Be we low or high,
  Is to see that we grow
  Nearer the sky.
   
   
   
   
   
  also this one : All things bright and beautiful
   
   
  Refrain:
  All things bright and beautiful,
  All creatures great and small,
  All things wise and wonderful,
  The Lord God made them all.
   
  Each little flower that opens,
  Each little bird that sings,
  He made their glowing colours,
  He made their tiny wings.
   
  Refrain
   
  The purple-headed mountain,
  The river running by,
  The sunset and the morning,
  That brightens up the sky;
   
  Refrain
   
  The cold wind in the winter,
  The pleasant summer sun,
  The ripe fruits in the garden,
  He made them every one;
   
  Refrain
   
  The tall trees in the greenwood,
  The meadows for our play,
  The rushes by the water,
  To gather every day;
   
  Refrain
   
  He gave us eyes to see them,
  And lips that we might tell
  How great is God Almighty,
  Who has made all things well.
   
  
  

My point being that children move toward that which resonates with them..

 

so trust in him.

 

And.. you have my sympathies!

[markern]

Well, Catholicism is very open to a lot of eastern approaches. The current Pope was the leader of a group that looked into the church` views on these matters and what the recommended was a very liberal approach. Even doing Vipassana is OK as the holy spirit is seen to be at work when you meditate in such a way. A LOT of Catholics do Zen and Vipassana. Also Catholicism has a long history of contemplative life in its monastaries. There are a bunch of Catholic meditations and meditative prayers. There is even one that is studied by scientists now because it is believed to have the same pain reducing effect as the tibetan meditation THong Len. You also have St John of the Cross and Meister Eckardt, the cloud of unknowing, the desert fathers. Currently there is a trend towards using centering prayer which is in many ways very similar to Vipassana. Check these things out and when he is of right age you can encourage them. They will eventually get him to do the right places even if he stays within Catholicism.

[Apech]

Just deal simply with the person and not the dogma - if you demonstrate kindness and compassion then your being around will be part of his world and give him opportunities - like asking you what you believe in when he is ready. He needs to find his own way which may or may not be as a devout Catholic - I think its hard for young people these days - the world is very confusing but being a good influence is something you can do without trying to interfere with his family's way.

 

(IMO)

[C T]

Just deal simply with the person and not the dogma - if you demonstrate kindness and compassion then your being around will be part of his world and give him opportunities - like asking you what you believe in when he is ready. He needs to find his own way which may or may not be as a devout Catholic - I think its hard for young people these days - the world is very confusing but being a good influence is something you can do without trying to interfere with his family's way.

 

(IMO)

So true! Well said A7.

 

 

i just want to add some thoughts here...

 

When certain fundamental principles, beliefs, ideas, philosophies are rejected, often it becomes quite a task to understand how others could find reason in those very things we have pushed aside. Perhaps when we can begin to view the uniqueness of others with their very individualized blueprints, aspects of which may very well differ from ours, and learn to accept this basic difference, it might actually be more beneficial in the wider scope of things. At the very least, this allows for the seeds of understanding and kinship to germinate. On many levels, i see 'letting go' and 'letting be' to be more conducive towards healing ourselves, and more importantly, re-aligning the distorted views we may have of others. This realization comes after years of personal struggle and losing many friends (even two is too many IMO).

 

The focus now, for me, is to always try to change my own self/views first, and empathize with others as much as i can. This releases my burden and also the burden in which i perceive others may have. In this manner, it becomes almost joyful to relate, because differences that exist mostly in my own imagination can now easily be waived, and the bond formed becomes one based on common ideals. In this there is no room for conflict.

[Bum Grasshopper]

I was born and raised catholic. Even went to catholic school. I did everything they said, with all my heart. I went to church every day. I went to confession when I "sinned". I prayed a lot. It did nothing for me.

 

When I was old enough to realize this, I told my parents. I was forced to still go to church every Sunday and holy day by my abusive mother. This led to resentment. I was convinced that the church was nothing but a scam. A big lie.

 

I had always felt a spiritual connection when out in nature. Mountains, streams lakes and caves were magical places. This eventually led me to Taoism.

 

Now I see God as Tao. Jesus was a gifted healer, profit and manifestatior, something that we are all capable of of. We are all "sons of God". The church is a powerful political organization that will go to any length to protect it's world domination. History has proved that.

 

So to summarize, I think it is O.K. to raise your kids a particular faith as long as it's core values are honorable. It will develop character and virtue. But when they are old enough you should let them explore their own spiritually and decide for themselves if organized religion is right for them.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I was raised Catholic. Some of the worst experiences of my life were in Catholic School, I was picked on, I received no practical help from any teachers or any members of the Church. It was a very closed off group, anyone different was outcast pretty harshly, and I was different.

 

So for me, it didn't help at all, turned me away from Catholicism and Christianity in general. Did some other stuff, got into other spiritual methods, Zen, Daoism, things like that. Then looking back on Christianity, and Catholicism, there's a lot of stuff in there I agree with and could get behind.

 

The thing with religions is that it provides a good community to grow up in, assuming you can fit into it in the first place (which I personally did not but there are others who do). I know a lot of Christians and Catholics at the college I am at now, they all have groups of students that they can hang out with. They throw parties and take trips on the weekends that don't involve alcohol, everyone believes in abstinence until marriage, there's no "funny business" going on. They don't watch movies that have bad messages, they don't do drugs, and in general are honest people and very safe to be around.

 

I am genuinely happy knowing that there are college students that behave that way in the modern world, and it's fun to hang out with them and sometimes I think I could start going to Church and hanging out with these people full time and get back into being a "Christian".

 

But it's just not for me. Good community, if you find that you fit into that crowd. Since your nephew would grow up in it, he would generally have a good access to friends and people to look out for him at any time really. The only thing to look out for is extremism in beliefs- which is a problem for anyone, regardless of what their beliefs are. The people in the community where I grew up in were extremely conservative and they were extremely closed off from other groups and passed severe judgment that stuck with you for as long as they knew you. That's no good.

 

But a lot of the Christians and Catholics that I know of now are extremely tolerant, will hang out with you even if you don't believe what they believe, and are willing to listen out to any alternative beliefs- they just practice what they practice and are very cool about it and have a very good community backing what they do- positive peer pressure, if you will.

 

So see if you can meet some of your brother-in-law's other Catholic friends, or, you know, talk about religion and spirituality about him directly. Ask him how exactly he tends to raise him, will he teach his son about other faiths? What lessons will he teach him, believe in yourself and your own connection to God (through Jesus) or just play a puppet to whatever Church doctrine happens to be at the time? No offense, but assuming that your brother-in-law believes and acts a certain way because he's Catholic is just as bad as assuming stuff about Muslims or New Agers or any other group- everyone is different, even if they do identify with a group.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Birch]

I'd trust the kid himself. If the way the religion is taught is in any way conflicting (i.e. big gaps between dogma and what he experiences in life practice) then it will be screamingly obvious to him. Maybe if TTBs is still up by then he could read this thread;-)

 

Things that could happen as a result of this early understanding are (IMO) dependent on the feedback he gets from his family and peers. For example, if his parents can sincerely discuss such things as "guilt" with him (and not use it to control him, which might be tempting as a tired mom or dad or if the parents don't "get it" themselves.) Besides, an abusive father/mother is an abusive father/mother, no?- I'm not sure how much religion plays in that. We could find out?

 

So, if I was an uncle (which I'm obviously not;-)) I would just be there for him. May I suggest under no circumstances should your own desire to indoctrinate (or counter-indoctrinate) take precedence. The family may already be waiting for you on that corner and I don't see the conflict as worth anything really.

 

I don't mean for this suggestion to take away from all the awful things that have been done in the name of this religion, nor all the good things. In fact a frank discussion on TTB's on some of the Catholic stuff would be really interesting to me. There's something going on in the Pit right now.

 

I was "raised"(cough cough) vaguely Protestant and knew I was already going to hell before I was 10. It can only get better after that;-) I always figured the Catholic stuff to be prettier, more passionate, sexier even.

[RyanO]

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses.

[Bum Grasshopper]

I was raised Catholic. Some of the worst experiences of my life were in Catholic School, I was picked on, I received no practical help from any teachers or any members of the Church. It was a very closed off group, anyone different was outcast pretty harshly, and I was different.

 

Yep. Don't know where you are from, or what years you attended Catholic school, but I had the exact experience. It seemed that the well to do families that donated a lot to the church got the preferential treatment.