Advaita and Buddhism are the Same After All

[~jK~]

Interesting in the amount of defining whereas the one point of agreement is that the enlightenment cannot be understood except by experience.

 

No apologies needed Dude.

 

As far as the Buddha having spent many previous lifetimes in meditating:

We do not remember our previous lifetimes for an obvious reason:

Mental Evolution would not work if we remembered.

There must be a clearing for new growth.

We can only begin with the Now.

 

Drugs and Alcohol are tools of the religions of WAR.

Meditate and you can be all you can be within reality.

[forestofclarity]

Just to add on and twist this back to Taoism:

 

One of the reasons that the traditions use these phrases is also to remind us that what we're seeking is within us. The Tang Zen masters of old were always going on and on about students seeking a Buddha outside themselves.

 

There are important aspects to this model. If we already are what we are seeking, then we need not look outside ourselves for a savior, an experience, or any thing like that. Outer teachings can help us guide within, but we cannot rely on them to save us.

 

Another important aspect is the idea of loss. As the Tao Te Ching says:

 

Pursue knowledge, daily gain

Pursue Tao, daily loss

Loss and more loss

Until one reaches unattached action

With unattached action, there is nothing one cannot do

Take the world by constantly applying non-interference

The one who interferes is not qualified to take the world

 

So the spiritual path is not about adding onto what we are, but uncovering it.

 

 

In the Mahamudra teachings, you often find the phrase 'original innate nature'. This is none other than buddha nature. The training is simply to become used to that, whether you call it Mahamudra, Madhyamika or Dzogchen.

[lino]

Interesting in the amount of defining whereas the one point of agreement is that the enlightenment cannot be understood except by experience.

 

 

 

As far as the Buddha having spent many previous lifetimes in meditating:

We do not remember our previous lifetimes for an obvious reason:

Mental Evolution would not work if we remembered.

There must be a clearing for new growth.

We can only begin with the Now.

 

Drugs and Alcohol are tools of the religions of WAR.

Meditate and you can be all you can be within reality.

 

I have to completely REJECT previous lifetimes. It is so-called

"higher-self/lower self" dodo. It is a conjob where somebody else's

sins are passed on to you. It is the same "everybody is born a sinner"

garbage that the churches play. I reject it because it is bullshit that

is supposed to "shame" you. It is social engineering.

 

Alcohol has medicinal value.

[JustARandomPanda]

I have to completely REJECT previous lifetimes. It is so-called

"higher-self/lower self" dodo. It is a conjob where somebody else's

sins are passed on to you. It is the same "everybody is born a sinner"

garbage that the churches play. I reject it because it is bullshit that

is supposed to "shame" you. It is social engineering.

 

Wow. I'd never seen it in that light but after having you point it out I feel like smacking my head and saying, "Duh!". It seems obvious once it's pointed out. I don't know why I never quite saw it in this light.

[Sunya]

Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche made similar observations. He says, " There are two types of mindfulness: deliberate and effortless. By starting out with the mindfulness of deliberate attention, the practitioner can make a clear distinction between being distracted or not. Effortless mindfulness is of course possible if you happen to be one of the people of the highest calibre - the instantaneous type of person - who does not really need to go through the path. However, for most other people, especially in the Mahamudra system, the mindfulness of deliberate attention is essential in the beginning. Otherwise, by relying only on effortless mindfulness, you may not even notice whether you are distracted or not. Even worse, you may convince yourself that you are never distracted. Rather than this, it is much better to practice deliberate mindfulness even though it is subtly conceptual, and gradually progress to effortless mindfulness.

 

In the Mahamudra teachings, you often find the phrase 'original innate nature'. This is none other than buddha nature. The training is simply to become used to that, whether you call it Mahamudra, Madhyamika or Dzogchen. These are all different words for the same natural state. But to train, you must first of all be introduced to, and have then recognized the view. In Mahamudra, once the practitioner has recognized the view, he or she takes mindfulness as the path; it is a way of training in that view. If mindfulness is lost, then he/she is led completely astray into the 'black dissipation' of ordinary habitual patterns. Black dissipation means one forgets all thought of practice and simply deviates into ordinary activities. All practice is left behind. So, either we remember the view and sustain it (remain undistracted), or the practice is destroyed. We need to know when we are distracted. Discursive thought is distraction, but once we recognize the essence of the thought, we arrive at non-thought. A quote from The Rain of Wisdom by Jamgon Lodro Thaye says: "Within complexity I discovered dharmakaya; within thought I discovered non-thought."

 

A person of the highest capacity can immediately arrive at effortless mindfulness. This is someone who possesses the continuity of former training from the life before this, who has been reborn with a very strong aptitude for this type of practice. Needless to say, most people do not belong to this category. Most of us are not of the highest capacity, so there is no way around having to remind ourselves of the view by deliberately being mindful.

 

That which goes astray is simply our attention. Our mind becomes distracted, and that which brings us back to the view is called 'deliberate mindfulness'. In the same way, if you want the light to come on in a room, a conscious act is necessary. You must put your finger on the switch and press it; the light does not turn itself on. In the same way again, unless a beginner reminds him/herself determinedly to remember the view, the recognition of mind-essence never occurs. The moment we notice we have been carried away, we think, "I have wandered off". By recognizing the identity of who has been distracted, you automatically arrive back in the view. The reminder is nothing more than that. This moment (of recognition) is like pressing the light-switch. Once the light is on, you do not have to keep pressing the switch. After a while, we may again forget and are carried away. At that point, we must reapply deliberate mindfulness."

 

 

(Apologies for the length of the post. Its all relevant.)

 

Thank you for posting that..

 

In my experience.. mindfulness is incredibly difficult! One hour a day of formal meditation just isn't enough. I have to be deliberate as often as possible because the momentum can be lost SO easily. I seek the no-return point where you have a flash of mindfulness, perhaps a satori in zen-talk, where you no longer are stuck in discursive thought and from then on its effortless, but so far it's just been deliberate and incredibly difficult! lol

 

Wow. I'd never seen it in that light but after having you point it out I feel like smacking my head and saying, "Duh!". It seems obvious once it's pointed out. I don't know why I never quite saw it in this light.

 

To sin, in ancient Greek, meant to miss the mark or to err. Everyone is born a sinner is another way of saying everyone is born deluded by seeking outside what is within. It is quite an accurate assessment imo, but of course paying your church to remove those sins won't work

 

I don't quite understand what makes more sense..that all your garbage came completely randomly with no cause? If delusion does not have a cause then liberation is not possible. It is only because delusion has a cause that liberation is possible because all we're doing is removing the conditions that set liberation into continuous play.

 

Believing in an continuous mindstream that carries karma [mental habits] is perhaps not necessary. I guess you can believe in genetic disposition and social and personal conditioning as the cause of your ignorance, but then where is the basis of enlightenment? How is it possible? If the causes for delusion are outside of yourself, externally caused, then how can you affect those causes and create illuminating change?

Edited May 9, 2010 by mikaelz

[xabir2005]

Your post (among others) shows 10:33am.

Then our forum shows different timing. You have to point by post number.

[lino]

So I'm right then. Let's replace lino's message with this synonomous term:

 

This is what happens with "karma". The Genies have been guarding earth man and woman

for millions of years. A Genie has penetrative vision, they can see into every

house just passing by. When they see something or somebody assaulting an earth

man or woman, the first thing that they do is touch Earth so that the Earth and air can build an immune system against the someone or something.

 

The Genies evolved so long ago that they are known as the Buddha of 32 marks.

 

You for real lino? Where's my magic lamp?

 

Seriously though, why use an Islamic term when discussing Buddhism? Source?

 

Buddhism talks about "liberation" and Jinns opt for "personal freedom".

Who do you think are more Buddhist than Buddhists. Jinn might be their name

but the fact of the matter is that they are man and woman...or "human".

The difference is that they do not acknowledge any "hu".

There is no separate race per say.

What they practice is scientific.

[xabir2005]

If one is viewing from the ditch (so to speak) or upside-down then such complications are more or less real as related to that ditch. But in my reading the Buddha reveals that the view from the ditch is not the true view:

 

"At the moment of awakening the Buddha exclaimed: "Wonder of wonders! All living beings are truly enlightened and shine with wisdom and virtue. But because their minds have become deluded and turned inward to the self, they fail to understand this." Kegon Sutra

 

In a way we could say that the sleeping one can not add the awake one to himself and then he to also awakens... for the awake one has always been so and nothing can be added or taken away from that. (if we agree to use such an analogy, which btw could easily be improved upon but I don't have the words for it at the moment )

 

Om

Poor translation.

 

The original text is: 善哉善哉，一切有情众生皆具如来智慧德相，只因妄想执著不能证得。若离妄想执著，即成佛道。

 

An accurate literal word-by-word translation done by me (and you can ask any Chinese guy to confirm) would be "Wonders of wonders, all sentient beings are endowed with the wisdom, virtues and embellishments (the 32 major marks and 80 minor marks) of the Tathagatas, but they cannot attain them simply because of deluded thinking and attachments. If they depart from deluded thinking and attachments, they shall accomplish the Buddha Way."

 

This is from Avatamsaka Sutra.

 

Btw this is the same as Mahaparinirvana Sutra saying,

"That is called ‘Buddha-nature’ because all sentient beings are to be unsurpassedly, perfectly, completely enlightened at a future time. Because afflictions exist in all sentient beings at present, because of that, the thirty two perfect marks and the eighty excellent exemplary signs do not exist”."

 

and

 

"Child of the lineage, I have said that ‘curd exists in milk’, because curd is produced from milk, it is called ‘curd’.

 

Child of lineage, at the time of milk, there is no curd, also there is no butter, ghee or ma.n.da, because the curd arises from milk with the conditions of heat, impurities, etc., milk is said to have the ‘curd-nature’."

Edited May 9, 2010 by xabir2005

[lino]

To sin, in ancient Greek, meant to miss the mark or to err. Everyone is born a sinner is another way of saying everyone is born deluded by seeking outside what is within. It is quite an accurate assessment imo, but of course paying your church to remove those sins won't work

 

I don't quite understand what makes more sense..that all your garbage came completely randomly with no cause? If delusion does not have a cause then liberation is not possible. It is only because delusion has a cause that liberation is possible because all we're doing is removing the conditions that set liberation into continuous play.

 

Believing in an continuous mindstream that carries karma [mental habits] is perhaps not necessary. I guess you can believe in genetic disposition and social and personal conditioning as the cause of your ignorance, but then where is the basis of enlightenment? How is it possible? If the causes for delusion are outside of yourself, externally caused, then how can you affect those causes and create illuminating change?

 

Sorry but the "missing the mark" theory as far as "sinning" goes doesn't work either.

You are born in your first incarnation. I reject reincarnation in its entirety. What I

meant to say is higher-self/lower-self dodo where bad karma is passed on to a so-called

"lower-self". Buddhism is supposed to be practiced with an extremely high degree of

discernment.

[xabir2005]

Sorry but the "missing the mark" theory as far as "sinning" goes doesn't work either.

You are born in your first incarnation. I reject reincarnation in its entirety. What I

meant to say is higher-self/lower-self dodo where bad karma is passed on to a so-called

"lower-self". Buddhism is supposed to be practiced with an extremely high degree of

discernment.

There is no such thing as higher or lower self.

 

You reap the results of your own deeds, not others.

[lino]

There is no such thing as higher or lower self.

 

You reap the results of your own deeds, not others.

 

Oh?

 

How do you explain people (me) at 3 or 4 years old seeing "reptoids" as their first

memory? With no cause by me.

 

The higher-self/lower-self dodo is the same dodo that is perpetrated

as an "immortal self" or "immortal embryo". It is dodo.

[xabir2005]

Oh?

 

How do you explain people (me) at 3 or 4 years old seeing "reptoids" as their first

memory? With no cause by me.

 

The higher-self/lower-self dodo is the same dodo that is perpetrated

as an "immortal self" or "immortal embryo". It is dodo.

Each person has their own individual mindstream, which continues from moment to moment, and lifetime to lifetime.

 

There is no collective higher soul in Buddhism.

[lino]

Each person has their own individual mindstream, which continues from moment to moment, and lifetime to lifetime.

 

There is no collective higher soul in Buddhism.

 

Individual mindstream hasn't existed in my life. I've been tampered with

since birth and so has everybody else.

[xabir2005]

Individual mindstream hasn't existed in my life. I've been tampered with

since birth and so has everybody else.

I see. I think you are tampered with by other spirits.

[~jK~]

I have to completely REJECT previous lifetimes. It is so-called

"higher-self/lower self" dodo. It is a conjob where somebody else's

sins are passed on to you. It is the same "everybody is born a sinner"

garbage that the churches play. I reject it because it is bullshit that

is supposed to "shame" you. It is social engineering.

 

Alcohol has medicinal value.

 

I take it that you cannot understand evolution?

Try this:

Evolution is proof of reincarnation.

5 words.

 

Hydrogen peroxide cleans better than alcohol.

Let me remember... alcohol is made by... oh yea! Alcohol is the feces of bacteria.

Hydrogen peroxide is made by rain water falling through the air. AKA: Feng Shui.

[lino]

I take it that you cannot understand evolution?

Try this:

Evolution is proof of reincarnation.

5 words.

 

Hydrogen peroxide cleans better than alcohol.

Let me remember... alcohol is made by... oh yea! Alcohol is the feces of bacteria.

Hydrogen peroxide is made by rain water falling through the air. AKA: Feng Shui.

 

Evolution in the manner that a person goes from stage 0 to

clearing stage 5 in the Order of Sariputta. "Reincarnation"

in the manner talked about is the same bullshit that the

church perpetuates. It is meant to shame you and it is

garbage. It is social engineering.

[~jK~]

Evolution in the manner that a person goes from stage 0 to

clearing stage 5 in the Order of Sariputta. "Reincarnation"

in the manner talked about is the same bullshit that the

church perpetuates. It is meant to shame you and it is

garbage. It is social engineering.

Actually, in Buddhism, the philosophy is pointed at people taking responsibility for their actions AKA Karma repercusions.

[RongzomFan]

Forget about reincarnation and karma for now.

 

The whole point of buddhism is to view reality correctly. That is the only difference between a buddha and a human.

 

So read "The Middle Way" by the Dalai Lama.

 

My understanding of certain buddhist teaching is this.

 

There is a self-affirming and discerning clarity beyond the conceptual mind.

 

This clarity does not have a real existence however, therefore it cannot be constructed by stilling the mind or through meditation. It is is also different than being "present", if your presence is at the level of the conceptual mind.

Edited May 9, 2010 by alwayson

[3bob]

Poor translation.

 

The original text is: 善哉善哉，一切有情众生皆具如来智慧德相，只因妄想执著不能证得。若离妄想执著，即成佛道。 (not on my screen)

 

An accurate literal word-by-word translation done by me (and you can ask any Chinese guy to confirm) would be "Wonders of wonders, all sentient beings are endowed with the wisdom, virtues and embellishments (the 32 major marks and 80 minor marks) of the Tathagatas, but they cannot attain them simply because of deluded thinking and attachments. If they depart from deluded thinking and attachments, they shall accomplish the Buddha Way."

 

This is from Avatamsaka Sutra.

 

Btw this is the same as Mahaparinirvana Sutra saying,

"That is called ‘Buddha-nature’ because all sentient beings are to be unsurpassedly, perfectly, completely enlightened at a future time. Because afflictions exist in all sentient beings at present, because of that, the thirty two perfect marks and the eighty excellent exemplary signs do not exist”."

and

 

"Child of the lineage, I have said that ‘curd exists in milk’, because curd is produced from milk, it is called ‘curd’.

 

Child of lineage, at the time of milk, there is no curd, also there is no butter, ghee or ma.n.da, because the curd arises from milk with the conditions of heat, impurities, etc., milk is said to have the ‘curd-nature’."

 

Xabir,

Your first translated quote above is fine with me; and it says the same thing to me as the other translation I submitted. Your 2nd quote does not quite match in meaning, and lastly the third one sounds like a backwards view... which is along the lines of what I'm trying to get across - namely that a backwards view to the future confines the "Wonder of wonders" to take place in some unknown, distant time - while the Buddha is giving it key witness with spiritual Joy right now!! There is no delusion in hearing that witness nor in sharing of that witness to whatever ability one may have in a timeless moment of insight! All of these major and minor marks are relative dust in the wind in comparison to the "Wonder of wonders" from which they are spun out of. Anyone can attain at least a glimpse of the "Wonder of wonders" inspiration before they attain to being a fully fledged and manifesting Master Buddha working in time and space. Further, Buddha nature can strike regardless of the conditions we put upon it related to an imagined future which is really only apparent and of linear limitations.

 

Om

Edited May 9, 2010 by 3bob

[lino]

Forget about reincarnation and karma for now.

 

The whole point of buddhism is to view reality correctly. That is the only difference between a buddha and a human.

 

So read "The Middle Way" by the Dalai Lama.

 

My understanding of certain buddhist teaching is this.

 

There is a self-affirming and discerning clarity beyond the conceptual mind.

 

This clarity does not have a real existence however, therefore it cannot be constructed by stilling the mind or through meditation. It is is also different than being "present", if your presence is at the level of the conceptual mind.

 

Everything, including buddhist teachings, should be examined with a

high degree of discernment. When you are looking at a teaching see how

somebody can exploit it for a scam. If it can be exploited for a scam

then it didn't come out of Shakyamuni's mouth.

[tyler zambori]

It is the potential we have to become Buddhas. Of course this hasn't been mentioned in this thread several times. Not at all.

 

 

Stating that Buddha nature is simply the potential to become a buddha is

simply chasing your tail without thinking. Nobody is getting my point.

 

Ok, look, even in the article the OP posted, there is a reference to self and buddha nature:

 

For Shankara, moksha, liberation, is the realization that I am, and always have been, Brahman; my individual ego-consciousness is destroyed, but not the pure, non-dual consciousness which it was always just a reflection of. It must be emphasized that one does not attain or merge with this Brahman; one merely realizes that one has always been Brahman. Shankara uses the analogy of the space within a closed jar: that space has always been one with all space; there is but the illusion of separateness. This point -- that really there is nothing to attain -- is especially significant because the same is true for Yoga and Buddhism. Regardless of however else it is categorized, one's self (or Buddhanature) has always been pure and unstained. The Yogic purusha is an indifferent seer which was always merely observing, unaffected by pain or pleasure. In Buddhism, there never was a self; it was always just an illusion.[5]

 

omigosh, Loy uses the term "self" and "buddha nature" as two terms that potentially mean the same thing,

imagine that ! And I have seen this in many other places. And you are not the first buddhists I've

discussed it with either. So please don't ( ya'll) give me this "oh the wikipedia entry is just

a crappy English translation" bit.

 

The Buddhists are kidding themselves that they don't believe in a self, and cling to it so much that they

even name it after the founder of their religion.

 

Anyhow, getting on to something that really does interest me, I would like to know the Daoist approach

to this:

 

It has already been stated that all forms of the spiritual path, including of course Samkhya-Yoga, Buddhism, and Advaita, involve complete non-attachment. One should not identify with any physical or mental phenomenon; in other words, one learns to relax and "let go" of literally everything. In doing so, the sense of self "shrinks to an extensionless point" and when that abruptly disappears -- which is enlightenment -- "what remains is the reality co-ordinate with it." On the one side nothing, not even the extensionless point, is left -- this is the Buddhist void, the complete absence of a self. On the other side remains -- everything, the whole world, but a transformed one since it now encompasses awareness within itself; this is the non-dual Brahman of Vedanta.

 

What I want to know is: do the Taoists take in both points of view, rather than choose one or the other?

I don't see why it shouldn't be possible to do that.

[Sunya]

Buddha simply means 'awake' or 'enlightened.' His real name was Siddhartha Gautama. Buddha was not his name, its a title. Nobody says Siddhartha nature. It's called buddha nature. It's like saying an acorn possesses 'tree-nature' because the acorn has the potential to grow into a tree, given the right conditions (water, sunlight, soil). It is an abstract symbol.

 

Nobody is getting your point because you're wrong.

[RongzomFan]

omigosh, Loy uses the term "self" and "buddha nature" as two terms that potentially mean the same thing,

imagine that !

 

 

Who cares what Loy says? He is a neo-advaita/zen fool who thinks like you.

 

Even basic Madhyamika 101 denies the claim of such a reality. Even basic observation proves that a "self" does not exists.

 

If YOU want to say a self exists, that is fine.

 

But do NOT say Buddhists believe in a "self".

 

 

The Buddhists are kidding themselves that they don't believe in a self, and cling to it so much that they

even name it after the founder of their religion.

 

 

Buddha simply means awakened in sanskrit.

 

Furthermore, buddha nature is the English translation of Sanskrit terms so your argument still does not make any sense.

Edited May 10, 2010 by alwayson

[dwai]

Just to add on and twist this back to Taoism:

 

One of the reasons that the traditions use these phrases is also to remind us that what we're seeking is within us. The Tang Zen masters of old were always going on and on about students seeking a Buddha outside themselves.

 

There are important aspects to this model. If we already are what we are seeking, then we need not look outside ourselves for a savior, an experience, or any thing like that. Outer teachings can help us guide within, but we cannot rely on them to save us.

 

Another important aspect is the idea of loss. As the Tao Te Ching says:

 

Pursue knowledge, daily gain

Pursue Tao, daily loss

Loss and more loss

Until one reaches unattached action

With unattached action, there is nothing one cannot do

Take the world by constantly applying non-interference

The one who interferes is not qualified to take the world

 

So the spiritual path is not about adding onto what we are, but uncovering it.

 

 

 

In line with, and as a more grounding understanding of Madhyamika, I came across this quote from Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj:

 

"Knowing I am nothing is absolute Wisdom and Knowing that I am everything is absolute Love, and my life moves between these two..."

 

Obviously, Nisargadatta-ji was well aware of the two perspectives to interpreting the Advaita experience.

[3bob]

In line with, and as a more grounding understanding of Madhyamika, I came across this quote from Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj:

 

"Knowing I am nothing is absolute Wisdom and Knowing that I am everything is absolute Love, and my life moves between these two..."

 

Obviously, Nisargadatta-ji was well aware of the two perspectives to interpreting the Advaita experience.

 

Great quote Dwai :-)