Advaita and Buddhism are the Same After All

[Vajrahridaya]

Even if thats true, how does it influence development of Vajrayana in India?

 

All these Vajrayana deities like Heruka etc. were practiced in India for hundreds of years, only later being transmitted to Tibet. "Tibetan" buddhism is simply the only living continuation of Indian Vajrayana.

 

Where does Bon come in?

 

I agree with you. Vajrayana as practiced in Tibet is very much in line with how it was practiced in India. The understanding is the same, the realization, the fruit or goal of the path has not changed one bit. Only some of it's dressings have changed dramatically in some cases, but not at it's core.

[Vajrahridaya]

To many assumptions above, and to many putting into boxes.

 

Om

 

Maybe you assume assumptions? ;^)

[Vajrahridaya]

So what is the end-goal of Buddhism? What does it look like? Is there anything there? Is there awareness?

 

The goal is simply the complete removal of psychological suffering and unconscious rebirth. How this manifests from Buddha to Buddha is entirely unique. Liberation in Buddhism originates dependent upon the constant awareness of the empty nature of mind and phenomena to the point of never falling into un-awareness again. One can at this point then manifest into various realms without loosing one's core realization deep within and be a guide for other beings, to live eternally in service throughout many comings and goings of universal displays.

 

In Buddhism, Nirvana or liberation is not becoming one with anything, it's just the constant experiential understanding and awareness of how things work, always and forever on the most fundamental basis of things. The accumulation of knowledge about the particulars of various things, like how to make a watch or cook pancakes is part of the wonder of life which a Buddha also experiences. But if that watch doesn't tick right or the pancakes come out flat, a Buddhas inner state of mind is unperturbed by such things. =^)

 

A Buddha fully participates in the wonders of life, but is never wavered from the constant contemplation of the true nature of all things. So yes, there is awareness in Nirvana, but it's an individual realization, not an all subsuming consciousness that one merges into.

[Vajrahridaya]

5. and a whole host of other poetic metaphors and attempts as description.

 

Rofl! Yup! As endless as the inventions of new languages.

[xabir2005]

Interesting, but I was more wondering about what the final goal of reality is rather than a person's goal in this realm.

 

So when an arhat dies, is there experience? Does final nirvana have experience?

 

Some interpretations of Buddhism to me suggest annihilation, which is funny because this is an interpretation of Hell in some Christian perspectives. If there is some kind of experience, how can there be an emptiness to emptiness?

 

Obviously, I realize there is no one perspective within Buddhism (as is evident in this thread), but individual interpretations are welcome.

From my understanding, if an arhat dies, there is no more experience (birth).

 

Until the Buddhas 'wake' them up to continue their path to Buddhahood.

 

An enlightened bodhisattva however will keep coming back to lead other beings to liberation and continue their practice to Buddhahood. A Buddha will also return to help other beings.

[Vajrahridaya]

A Buddha will also return to help other beings.

 

Actually a Buddha can only project from a pure realm a stream of dharmic intention that may or may not take a human form, through womb birth maybe, or maybe not, depending upon aligning conditions projected by Samsarins in a particular realm of interest. This part gets a little complicated in explanation. But once one has realized Buddhahood, they cannot actually take full rebirth into a realm that is proliferated with dukkha sullied beings. Even though they see that there is no inherent existence to them, the cosmos still has it's laws of physics and metaphysics. May Buddha slap me over the head if I said anything out of turn. =^D

 

For instance a Samyaksambuddha like Shakyamuni comes in when they only have the last vestiges of samsaric karma already destined to be extinguished in one lifetime in a dukkha filled realm like Earth. They already know what they are going to be doing before they take birth, but have enough karma left of dukkha to go through the motions and be living examples of the path for the rest of us dense beings. Also a Buddha like this only take birth if there are lots of seekers of the truth but not any really good teachers of it. If me and you are to be Buddhas, we are Sravakabuddhas' and we may become Samyaksambuddhas in another universe or far away galaxy as well as project here too... anyway... it's complicated in description, though easy to understand within the knowledge of emptiness.

 

Xabir... I say this more in general, because you might already know these little things.

Edited May 12, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[xabir2005]

Actually a Buddha can only project from a pure realm a stream of dharmic intention that may or may not take a human form, through womb birth maybe, or maybe not, depending upon aligning conditions projected by Samsarins in a particular realm of interest. This part gets a little complicated in explanation. But once one has realized Buddhahood, they cannot actually take full rebirth into a realm that is proliferated with dukkha sullied beings. Even though they see that there is no inherent existence to them, the cosmos still has it's laws of physics and metaphysics. May Buddha slap me over the head if I said anything out of turn. =^D

 

For instance a Samyaksambuddha like Shakyamuni comes in when they only have the last vestiges of samsaric karma already destined to be extinguished in one lifetime in a dukkha filled realm like Earth. They already know what they are going to be doing before they take birth, but have enough karma left of dukkha to go through the motions and be living examples of the path for the rest of us dense beings. Also a Buddha like this only take birth if there are lots of seekers of the truth but not any really good teachers of it. If me and you are to be Buddhas, we are Sravakabuddhas' and we may become Samyaksambuddhas in another universe or far away galaxy as well as project here too... anyway... it's complicated in description, though easy to understand within the knowledge of emptiness.

 

Xabir... I say this more in general, because you might already know these little things.

Interesting.. thanks for explaining.

[Vajrahridaya]

Interesting.. thanks for explaining.

 

Like for instance, the Dalai Lama is supposed to be a Bodhisattva projection of a Buddha who manifests as a Bodhisattva through mind projected intention from a pure realm. So the Dalai Lama is both a Bodhisattva and a Buddha at the same time. The higher mind of a Buddha, but the action and display of a high level Bodhisattva in order to have a footing here on Earth and not float away or the body could not even be dense enough to be here. It's deep how they do this... I can try to explain it, and have tried before. But, it seems quite convoluted, especially coming from a person as dense as me.

 

HAHA!

[xabir2005]

Like for instance, the Dalai Lama is supposed to be a Bodhisattva projection of a Buddha who manifests as a Bodhisattva through mind projected intention from a pure realm. So the Dalai Lama is both a Bodhisattva and a Buddha at the same time. The higher mind of a Buddha, but the action and display of a high level Bodhisattva in order to have a footing here on Earth and not float away or the body could not even be dense enough to be here. It's deep how they do this... I can try to explain it, and have tried before. But, it seems quite convoluted, especially coming from a person as dense as me.

 

HAHA!

Ah interesting... I've always wondered why Buddhas have to return as a Bodhisattva. Like why does Avalokitesvara who is supposedly an ancient Buddha have to return as a Bodhisattva, why can't he just return as a Buddha. I think what you said made sense.

 

You mentioned you have explained it before... perhaps you can share?

Edited May 12, 2010 by xabir2005

[Vajrahridaya]

Ah interesting... I've always wondered why Buddhas have to return as a Bodhisattva. Like why does Avalokitesvara who is supposedly an ancient Buddha have to return as a Bodhisattva, why can't he just return as a Buddha. I think what you said made sense.

 

You mentioned you have explained it before... perhaps you can share?

 

I shouldn't right now... I don't think I'm qualified. If it doesn't manifest spontaneously and I have to try really hard to find the right words? Maybe another time I'll be more enlightened and open to channel that information.

 

But it's kind of like projecting an idea or intention that plays in the mud in order to weigh itself down and just snowballs in a well intended way, due to the primal cause of that manifestation being of the highest good... but mud still is mud, the inner intention always shines through and does it's good despite the fact that it's the mud that is holding that intention here. So it's like the Dalai Lamas dukkha is more for the sake of others than it is for the sake of himself. It's that slight bit of dukkha that plays in order to manifest conditions for teaching, but it never really sticks because the core is already illumined and like a furnace. I keep thinking there is a better way to say this, but it escapes me right now.

Edited May 12, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[lino]

Ah interesting... I've always wondered why Buddhas have to return as a Bodhisattva. Like why does Avalokitesvara who is supposedly an ancient Buddha have to return as a Bodhisattva, why can't he just return as a Buddha. I think what you said made sense.

 

You mentioned you have explained it before... perhaps you can share?

 

Some Buddhas may only keep the title for a certain time

and return to a Bodhisattva role.

 

Buddha = primarily a Teacher and maybe a Realm Lord/Lady.

Bodhisattva = Healer, Teacher, Realm Lord/Lady etc.

 

Think of a Buddha as a knife (primarily) and a Bodhisattva as a

gerber multi-tool.

 

There are a lot more people on this planet that clear

stage 5 than people think. Stage 5 is equal to

untitled Buddhahood.

Edited May 12, 2010 by lino

[xabir2005]

I shouldn't right now... I don't think I'm qualified. If it doesn't manifest spontaneously and I have to try really hard to find the right words? Maybe another time I'll be more enlightened and open to channel that information.

 

But it's kind of like projecting an idea or intention that plays in the mud in order to weigh itself down and just snowballs in a well intended way, due to the primal cause of that manifestation being of the highest good... but mud still is mud, the inner intention always shines through and does it's good despite the fact that it's the mud that is holding that intention here. So it's like the Dalai Lamas dukkha is more for the sake of others than it is for the sake of himself. It's that slight bit of dukkha that plays in order to manifest conditions for teaching, but it never really sticks because the core is already illumined and like a furnace. I keep thinking there is a better way to say this, but it escapes me right now.

I see.. thanks

[xabir2005]

Some Buddhas may only keep the title for a certain time

and return to a Bodhisattva role.

 

Buddha = primarily a Teacher and maybe a Realm Lord/Lady.

I agree Buddha is a Teacher.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by Realm Lord.

 

However, if I remember correctly, Shakyamuni Buddha is 'in charge' of the 3000 world systems while he was the Buddha. Other worlds beyond that may have other Buddhas, but Shakyamuni is the current Buddha of these worlds, until the next Buddha appears which is Maitreya Buddha.

Bodhisattva = Healer, Teacher, Realm Lord/Lady etc.

What do you mean by 'Healer'?

There are a lot more people on this planet that clear

stage 5 than people think. Stage 5 is equal to

untitled Buddhahood.

What is the Stage 5 you're talking about? What are the previous stages? Edited May 12, 2010 by xabir2005

[RongzomFan]

So what is the end-goal of Buddhism? What does it look like? Is there anything there? Is there awareness?

 

From the viewpoint of Mahayana, there are two different goals.

 

One is becoming an arhat.

 

The other is becoming a buddha.

 

A Buddha STILL IS a bodhisattva.

 

A bodhisattva is ANYONE who has taken mahayana refuge.

 

Despite popular belief, a bodhisattva tries to achieve Buddhahood AS FAST AS POSSIBLE for the sake of infinite beings.

Edited May 12, 2010 by alwayson

[lino]

I agree Buddha is a Teacher.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by Realm Lord.

 

However, if I remember correctly, Shakyamuni Buddha is 'in charge' of the 3000 world systems while he was the Buddha. Other worlds beyond that may have other Buddhas, but Shakyamuni is the current Buddha of these worlds, until the next Buddha appears which is Maitreya Buddha.

What do you mean by 'Healer'?

What is the Stage 5 you're talking about? What are the previous stages?

 

"Healer" as doctor that produces results.

 

Stage 1 = Stream enterer

Stage 2 = Once-Returner

Stage 3 = Non-Returner

Stage 4 = Arhat (has a 4.5 micro stage)

Stage 5 = Buddha or untitled Buddha

 

There are more stages after this. We aren't an evolutionary deadend.

 

Realm Lord is somebody who creates a full realm and is in charge of

it. Amitabha (already beyond stage 5) is a Realm Lord.

Edited May 12, 2010 by lino

[Vajrahridaya]

 

Realm Lord is somebody who creates a full realm and is in charge of

it. Amitabha (already beyond stage 5) is a Realm Lord.

 

Yes, they create a realm where beings can work out their karmas, and be more in contact with Buddhadharma while doing so. They don't actually create the beings in the realm, though they will manifest many streams of Buddharific intentioned beings as teachers, which are just reflections of the original in different ways.

 

Pretty awesome stuff!

[Birch]

Hahaha, that part about the multi-purpose knife was hilarious.

 

I'm sliding OT almost but I kind of feel like I want the whole Greek Pantheon back again Maybe they really got it right after all by personifying the thought forms, or maybe they were too dangerous like that? Plus they had Zeus to rule over them all, I figure he's a kind of an Atman.

 

Doesn't Tantrism call upon a large number of different types of Buddhas (or Taras?)

 

The only Bon I ever met was during a dream (I wrote about it ages ago) and he did some pretty wild stuff. Then just yesterday I read that story someone posted a link to about the Aghora (sp?) decomposing and recomposing himself at will. Which is exactly what the Bon shaman showed me he could do. Which is IMO what qi-gong does, but I'm sliding further OT so I'll stop now;-)

 

http://www.drsvoboda.com/divinefury.htm

 

"He climbed to the apex of aghoridom and stood there, dissolving and recoagulating himself moment by moment, his motto an eternal shout of navinam navinam, kshane kshane ("Newness, newness, at every moment!")."

 

edited for link and quote

Edited May 13, 2010 by Kate

[Vajrahridaya]

Hahaha, that part about the multi-purpose knife was hilarious.

 

I'm sliding OT almost but I kind of feel like I want the whole Greek Pantheon back again Maybe they really got it right after all by personifying the thought forms, or maybe they were too dangerous like that? Plus they had Zeus to rule over them all, I figure he's a kind of an Atman.

 

Doesn't Tantrism call upon a large number of different types of Buddhas (or Taras?)

 

The only Bon I ever met was during a dream (I wrote about it ages ago) and he did some pretty wild stuff. Then just yesterday I read that story someone posted a link to (I'll edit later to repost) about the Aghora (sp?) who could just stand there on the hilltop decomposing and recomposing himself at will. Which is exactly what the Bon shaman showed me he could do. Which is IMO what qi-gong does, but I'm sliding further OT so I'll stop now;-)

 

What an awesome dream!

 

But yes... Vajra path (yana) does indeed call upon a large number of different types of Buddhas. You realize the intention of this when you start realizing the intention of all of Buddhism. It actually trains your mind to think multi-dimensionally and be in many different places at once without loosing one's state of pure, unadulterated and uncompounded awareness. Because as a Buddha... you will project many fabulous intentions into many murky regions of the cosmos in order to help people.

 

Buddhism is geared towards helping others... that's basically the goal. How to help others optimally and completely, with total surrender to this job.

 

It's a selfless path.

[Birch]

It's a selfless path.

 

 

Dude, that's the funnest Buddhist "in-joke" I've heard in a while

[Birch]

"Realm Lord is somebody who creates a full realm and is in charge of

it."

 

So that would be Sean at TTB's

 

Awesome.

[Vajrahridaya]

Dude, that's the funnest Buddhist "in-joke" I've heard in a while

 

HA HA

 

It would be funny if we could have spontaneous recordings uploaded of uproarious laughter that could be facilitated without a whole lot of "goings ons" within computer land to do so... like right now! :lol:

Edited May 13, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

"Realm Lord is somebody who creates a full realm and is in charge of

it."

 

So that would be Sean at TTB's

 

Awesome.

 

You know what! Kind of... in a way... yes! I've often felt computers/internet as being a manifest potential reflection of enlightened consciousness...

 

This kind of is a realm where people can work out their "shyte" and have conditions for being influenced by good things. Yup!

[ralis]

What an awesome dream!

 

But yes... Vajra path (yana) does indeed call upon a large number of different types of Buddhas. You realize the intention of this when you start realizing the intention of all of Buddhism. It actually trains your mind to think multi-dimensionally and be in many different places at once without loosing one's state of pure, unadulterated and uncompounded awareness. Because as a Buddha... you will project many fabulous intentions into many murky regions of the cosmos in order to help people.

 

Buddhism is geared towards helping others... that's basically the goal. How to help others optimally and completely, with total surrender to this job.

 

It's a selfless path.

 

 

How are you helping others by preaching your dogma? Furthermore, you posit some mythical truth of an overarching Buddha ruler of this realm. Exactly, where is this invisible Buddha located? I suppose you want your dogma taught as absolute truth in public schools!

 

 

 

ralis

Edited May 13, 2010 by ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

How are you helping others by preaching your dogma? Furthermore, you posit some mythical truth of an overarching Buddha ruler of this realm. Exactly, where is this invisible Buddha located? I suppose you want your dogma taught as absolute truth in public schools!

 

 

 

ralis

 

No, Samsarins rule this realm. Buddha ruled realms are in much higher vibration dimensions or universes. You can't see them cuz you ain't quick enough my dear Ralis. We are mostly encumbered by our dense identifications with crude material things, ya know? I was born through the womb, and people get sick and die, I get pleasure through body friction, and it hurts if you hit my body and such... you know... the regular slow moving type of identifications.

 

We don't have to be because even this crude matter is made of sparkly moving so fast we generally can't see through the 5 senses energy particles.

 

But a Buddha realm is even subtler than quarks and atoms. So, if you can't see quarks and atoms, what makes you think you could see this Buddha realm that moves much subtler?

 

Meditate Mr. Ralis... Meditate!

[ralis]

No, Samsarins rule this realm. Buddha ruled realms are in much higher vibration dimensions or universes. You can't see them cuz you ain't quick enough my dear Ralis. We are mostly encumbered by our dense identifications with crude material things, ya know? I was born through the womb, and people get sick and die, I get pleasure through body friction, and it hurts if you hit my body and such... you know... the regular slow moving type of identifications.

 

We don't have to be because even this crude matter is made of sparkly moving so fast we generally can't see through the 5 senses energy particles.

 

But a Buddha realm is even subtler than quarks and atoms. So, if you can't see quarks and atoms, what makes you think you could see this Buddha realm that moves much subtler?

 

Meditate Mr. Ralis... Meditate!

 

 

You assume much Vajraji! What gives you the impression that I don't meditate? Also you implied this reality is a Buddha realm. I wish you would learn how to communicate. In other words,stop making sweeping generalizations.

 

Seems as though you are desperately trying to convince yourself that you are above it all and furthermore, that you possess some absolute fundamentalist truth.

 

ralis

Edited May 14, 2010 by ralis