Advaita and Buddhism are the Same After All

[ralis]

No, Buddhism comes from beyond this planet even before the Earth took shape. The Bushmen and Aborigines had some spiritual sparks, but they are largely superstitious.

 

 

 

 

 

Are you serious? You posit nothing more than a legend. Of course, you will argue in favor of a factual basis for a pre-existing Buddhism. Seriously, I am at a loss for words.

[Vajrahridaya]

His arguments were bogus!

 

ralis

 

You never really make an argument as to why. You just point, shoot and run off, like wild drive by shootings.

[nac]

Well talking of bias, you make repeated points about Hindus being pseudo-intellectual etc.

Black and white again. Most Hindus in my experience are not = Hinduism.

 

when their scientific contributions are much more than Persians or Arabs.

In the field of mathematics, maybe, but certainly not science. The field of modern optics was created by a medieval Muslim scientist who also invented the pin-hole camera. Historically speaking, the tradition of empirical science is a medieval Muslim invention. Hindus rarely progressed beyond theoretical speculation before the arrival of the British.

 

While you refer back to "Medieval" times to find an excuse to express your appreciation for Islam, you speak as though all Hinduism is - is just a bunch of lay people believing in fantastic stories or pseudo-intellectuals. Where is the middle-way that you Buddhists so attest for in your observations?

No I don't, that's how you imagined me speaking of them. There's a difference, see? I have great respect for Hindu mahapurushas like Aryabhatta and the rest of the Kerala school of astronomy and mathematics. Appreciation for both Hindu and Muslim sages and sorrow for the lay masses of either isn't self-contradictory.

 

So Buddhists have no pet theories like Hindus? Moslems have no pet, unscientific theories?

Aren't you stretching it a bit now? The whole point was that all laypersons come up with unscientific theories like V's and that we shouldn't let anyone get away with delusional thinking.

 

Is there a census which proves Hindus to have considerably more such theories than the other two? What is your point here?

Well, it is true that lay Hindu theories tend to be more fantastical and lay Muslim theories more violent, but that's completely beside the point. When you forget what the point was, please go back and reread the earlier posts.

 

All I am trying to point out is that no ism is better than the other, no matter how hard you try to prove here otherwise.

Me?

 

You have got to be kidding me. Nice one! I especially like the way you stereotype me into a "typical Hindu hating Indian Muslim" and accuse me of hypocrisy in the same post.

[Vajrahridaya]

Are you serious? You posit nothing more than a legend. Of course, you will argue in favor of a factual basis for a pre-existing Buddhism. Seriously, I am at a loss for words.

 

You are at a loss for meditative experience too.

 

But, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche believes this as well. Yes he does and has spoken about this.

[dragonfire45]

 

 

What's ludicrous is you projecting your prejudices onto my words every step of the way.

 

 

 

 

Not really! You talk from your frame of reference living in India where there are no lay Buddhists. Add to it the cultural conditioning of a Moslem upbringing - selective bias against everything Hindu while trying to go back in time to appreciate the "scientific" outlook of the Arabs is proof enough!

 

If Buddhism is close to anything, it is probably Hinduism as the current day Hinduism derives a lot of its elements from Buddhism as well. So when you harp endlessly on the intellectual deficiencies of the "lay" Hindu, Buddhism is to be blamed as much, thanks to the Buddhist elements present in cultural and religious Hinduism today. Talk of Buddhists - there are so many Hindu elements as well and that steal away some credit you stubbornly give to the Buddhists for being rational, scientific and free from all kinds of dogma (yes, yes, there is a perfect explanation for Buddhism existing before the earth)

[ralis]

ralis... you have a habit of mis-understanding.

 

I quoted Einstein as saying that Buddhism is a religion of the future, transcending dogmas revolving around a God... etc. I didn't call it science. But, the Buddhas revelation of everything being relative is spoken quite nicely by Einsteins theories. Of course your right brain hasn't opened yet.. only the insult side of the brain. You make no logical arguments, you just throw hate balls.

 

The problem is your use of Einstein's theories of relativity. I asked you many times which theory and I never received an answer. General or Special?

 

 

ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

This is not just Vaj but many believe so. Some even explain how aliens and other solar systems and galaxies were known to Buddha/Buddhists (Mikalez said that I believe) based on these belief systems.

 

This is spoken of in various Buddhist texts as well as current Buddhist masters who have other worldly experience.

[Vajrahridaya]

The problem is your use of Einstein's theories of relativity. I asked you many times which theory and I never received an answer. General or Special?

 

 

ralis

 

I Did answer as a matter of fact, but you never answered back and kept saying I didn't answer. I actually quoted both theories even and wrote a description. I even asked you to go back and find that post... you never did.

 

Your mind is already too narrow though... this is why I had put you on ignore, because you don't really argue, you just bash.

[nac]

This is not just Vaj but many believe so. Some even explain how aliens and other solar systems and galaxies were known to Buddha/Buddhists (Mikalez said that I believe) based on these belief systems.

That's what Hindus say, no foolies. Buddhists usually say that Buddhist cosmology is much closer to the real world than those of Abrahamic religions, (human-centric, everlasting souls, 6000 year old universe, etc) therefore it's ethical philosophy is also more relevant to beings who eyes have been opened by science.

 

I find this to be a fantastic theory as well. But nac will probably not, for only Hindu theories are fantastic and lay. This is science or cognitive science or something on those lines

dragonfire45, it it worth arguing with you? You tell me.

 

PS. What can falsify your hypothesis about me?

Edited May 19, 2010 by nac

[dragonfire45]

Well, it is true that lay Hindu theories tend to be more fantastical and lay Muslim theories more violent, but that's completely beside the point.

 

 

And this theory is based on? What you see day to day in India? Where and how have you examined lay Buddhist theories? What is your exposure to a lay Buddhist? Let's talk facts here and not couch conclusions.

 

Hey, you concluded I was deluded. I didn't take such liberty. I only suggested that there is a possibility that you have cultural conditioning that makes you bigotted in your approach towards Hindus and resort to medieval Islam as the source of scientific thinking. My my, had the Moslems not invaded India, there would be no science but only math! Thank god for the brutal invaders.

 

Ok, again, jokes aside, your conclusions are based on your conditioning and not hard facts. You would need to start right with the definition of a "lay" Hindu, what his cultural and philosophical backgrounds are etc.

 

I believe I am not overstepping my limit in pointing out your prejudice as you have only targeted Hindus in all your posts and have not indicated that your accusations may apply in some degree to other religions as well. Your need to constantly go back to medieval Islam to find support for your argument only strengthens my case.

[nac]

Luck? So luck is acceptable in Buddhism? That is based on Karma or disposed by an intelligent being? Is it coincidence? If the means were skillful, what is the need for luck? The luck is karmic state of the preacher or the listener or both? You cannot make statements without explaining huh?

Dear lord, it's incredible how little you know about Buddhism and how many half-baked opinions you've come up with! In your mind, Buddhism and I both seem to bear the same satanic face. Talking to you can only be detrimental in that case.

 

It's not wholly my fault. You refuse to understand anything, explanations or not.

Edited May 19, 2010 by nac

[nac]

And this theory is based on? What you see day to day in India? Where and how have you examined lay Buddhist theories? What is your exposure to a lay Buddhist? Let's talk facts here and not couch conclusions.

 

Hey, you concluded I was deluded. I didn't take such liberty. I only suggested that there is a possibility that you have cultural conditioning that makes you bigotted in your approach towards Hindus and resort to medieval Islam as the source of scientific thinking. My my, had the Moslems not invaded India, there would be no science but only math! Thank god for the brutal invaders.

 

Ok, again, jokes aside, your conclusions are based on your conditioning and not hard facts. You would need to start right with the definition of a "lay" Hindu, what his cultural and philosophical backgrounds are etc.

 

I believe I am not overstepping my limit in pointing out your prejudice as you have only targeted Hindus in all your posts and have not indicated that your accusations may apply in some degree to other religions as well. Your need to constantly go back to medieval Islam to find support for your argument only strengthens my case.

My, my my.

 

My, my, my, my, my, my.

 

My, my.

 

cya!

[dragonfire45]

That's what Hindus say, no foolies. Buddhists usually say that Buddhist cosmology is much closer to the real world than those of Abrahamic religions, (human-centric, everlasting souls, 6000 year old universe, etc) therefore it's ethical philosophy is also more relevant to beings who eyes have been opened by science.

 

 

 

Again, baseless conclusions. Same Buddhism has been called passive and averting from life by people but you accuse such of not understanding Buddhism. Hindus have the same complaint no?

 

Vajra is not a Hindu and the statement I made here is what he is quoting here! Namkhai Norbu writes many such fantastic stuff in his books! They are not Hindus! I never denied Hindus have some fantastic theories. But are Buddhists lacking any? The example is right here, but you choose to ignore and say Vajra does not represent all Buddhists. Hello! Namkhai Norbu does (my greatest respects for him...just using him as a reference). He is saying Buddhism was brought here from another Universe. To divert the issue, you ignore the point in discussion and change track to ethical philosophy.

 

Talking of skillful means! Very Arab-like, but unfortunately reflective of the current day

Edited May 19, 2010 by dragonfire45

[dwai]

Manusher mone ajkal kono spiritual ambition nei, janen to? Beshirbhag lok gotokaler jhogra niyei pore thakte bhalo bashe.

 

vicious circle + self-complacency = eternal cycle

 

Hopefully this will be broken before long.

 

 

I hold no grievances against the ignorant. That includes all of us.

 

I get a pretty good idea where you are coming from dear friend. No worries...you are entitled to your views...I don't agree with them, I don't think you have seen a good example of traditional scholars.

 

However you ARE in the seat of the Ramakrishna movement...surely you must have encountered some Swamis from the Ramakrishna Order...do they seem like empty-headed armchair philosophers to you? That description seems more apt for some participants on this forum...

 

[dragonfire45]

Dear lord, it's incredible how little you know about Buddhism and how many half-baked opinions you've come up with! In your mind, Buddhism and I both seem to bear the same satanic face. Talking to you can only be detrimental in that case.

 

It's not wholly my fault. You refuse to understand anything, explanations or not.

 

 

Well, when you run out of valid arguments, you can accuse me of half-bakedness, not-bakedness or delusion. But a moment ago you were ready to end my delusion no? Gave up already?

 

The only way to counter my half-baked beans is through your full-baked beans. Jeez, its time for dinner!

Edited May 19, 2010 by dragonfire45

[dragonfire45]

My, my my.

 

My, my, my, my, my, my.

 

My, my.

 

cya!

 

I thought Kamalashila said: If Dhamma is not understood once, teach again. If not, teach yet again. Teach till the dhamma is drilled deep and insight arises. That is the true mark of compassion.

 

But you gave up on me already

The hat of the savior ascends in a minute and descends the next?

 

Coming back to my question - if you go back and read your posts all over again, you still think you have been skillful in conveying what you set out to? Note that I am not claiming to be skillful by any degree before you throw back the same question at me

Edited May 19, 2010 by dragonfire45

[dwai]

Black and white again. Most Hindus in my experience are not = Hinduism.

 

 

In the field of mathematics, maybe, but certainly not science. The field of modern optics was created by a medieval Muslim scientist who also invented the pin-hole camera. Historically speaking, the tradition of empirical science is a medieval Muslim invention. Hindus rarely progressed beyond theoretical speculation before the arrival of the British.

 

 

No I don't, that's how you imagined me speaking of them. There's a difference, see? I have great respect for Hindu mahapurushas like Aryabhatta and the rest of the Kerala school of astronomy and mathematics. Appreciation for both Hindu and Muslim sages and sorrow for the lay masses of either isn't self-contradictory.

 

 

Aren't you stretching it a bit now? The whole point was that all laypersons come up with unscientific theories like V's and that we shouldn't let anyone get away with delusional thinking.

 

 

Well, it is true that lay Hindu theories tend to be more fantastical and lay Muslim theories more violent, but that's completely beside the point. When you forget what the point was, please go back and reread the earlier posts.

 

 

Me?

 

You have got to be kidding me. Nice one! I especially like the way you stereotype me into a "typical Hindu hating Indian Muslim" and accuse me of hypocrisy in the same post.

 

You ought to read more about Ancient Indian contributions to the fields of Physics, Metallurgy, Medicine, Engineering, etc. Astronomy/Astrology was a major factor in development of mathematics, but that doesn't mean Hindus were contented wallowing in mud rambling off numbers and mathematical formulae and not doing anything to better the material comforts of their lives.

 

I for one don't think you are a Hindu-hating Moslem...I think you are an extremely intelligent young man. However your experience and exposure even within the Indian context is very limited. So you cannot necessarily generalize (and no, watching NDTV or Zee News doesn't qualify as experience) about the mindset of the Indian Hindu.

 

As far as fantastical Hindu theories go, they are pauranic fables, that worked towards cultural integration of various schools of philosophy in India. The Shaivas and Vaishnavas were united by presenting deities such as Shiva, Vishnu etc being related (Vishnu married to Shiva's daughter Lakshmi, Brahma married to his daughter Sarasvati, etc). I would find it hard to believe that an educated Hindu actually thought that these mythologies were true. That said, Puranas also contain ethical and moral lessons (regarding social conduct, devotion, filial piety etc)...all of which form the tradition part of Indian Culture (and all Hindu kids grow up listening to these stories from their parents, grandparents, etc, to give them a sound background in the Hindu culture and tradition).

[dragonfire45]

Okay people, I sure have a delusional life and my xbox is not going to play by itself because of Prtatityasamutpada. I will divert my skill or lack of it to that ... good nightie everyone

 

Drew, I got Qissage last night and must say it is good! A perfect short massage routine to address all the important meridian points. I was working on Trunk's list but that was a tad too many. My Sifu taught me a shorter sequence that seemed to work well but this is one is very good! I should probably try them in full lotus. Extremely well thought out sequence. I am planning to send a copy to my acupuncturist in Beijing - this seems better than his complicated routine

Edited May 19, 2010 by dragonfire45

[nac]

Well, when you run out of valid arguments, you can accuse me of half-bakedness, not-bakedness or delusion. But a moment ago you were ready to end my delusion no? Gave up already?

 

The only way to counter my half-baked beans is through your full-baked beans

That's rich! "Arguments". Heh heheh. Like you presented any for me to answer. I could help you correct your delusions about us cruel, mleccha invaders with a complete socio-political perspective, but unfortunately, you're stuck at the moment. You appear to be incapable of believing that I could have any decent intentions unless I surrender completely to all your opinions, so I will bid you good day. Are you sure you're a science student or a scientist? I must say I'm surprised, because I've often encountered exactly the same passive-aggressive attitude from other Hindus. (don't see red again, many of my teachers and best friends are Hindus) I can only pray this a coincidence.

 

My advice would be to observe and learn from dwai. He's the kind of realized, non-communal Hindu (or Muslim) that keeps getting scarcer with each passing day.

 

</parting-comments>

[voidisyinyang]

Okay people, I sure have a delusional life and my xbox is not going to play by itself because of Prtatityasamutpada. I will divert my skill or lack of it to that ... good nightie everyone

 

Drew, I got Qissage last night and must say it is good! A perfect short massage routine to address all the important meridian points. I was working on Trunk's list but that was a tad too many. My Sifu taught me a shorter sequence that seemed to work well but this is one is very good! I should probably try them in full lotus. Extremely well thought out sequence. I am planning to send a copy to my acupuncturist in Beijing - this seems better than his complicated routine

 

Awesome. Apparently Chunyi Lin's wife is in the hospital. I have no idea what's going on. I know that a Shaolin Buddhist monk, Master Yao, healed her breast cancer a long time ago - probably over 20 years ago. Anyway Chunyi Lin has been so busy healing other people -- so know he's focused on healing his wife.

[dragonfire45]

My advice would be to observe and learn from dwai. He's the kind of realized, non-communal Hindu (or Muslim) that keeps getting scarcer with each passing day.

 

</parting-comments>

 

 

Hmmm.... you should read back what you wrote and self-analyze perhaps? I replied to every argument of yours and within reason but you came back with lame excuses. Lol, you will have to work with me a little here as I am a fan of David Icke! So I also have two takeways here:

 

- Vajra and co don't represent all or most Buddhists and their means here are hardly skillful.

- Some words of appreciation for Dwai which he truly deserves - which he did not get so far, including from you - but for ridicule.

 

Ok, I have some questions on your advice and how it relates to Buddhism. When you can respond and not react, come back for a chat. I like Persian Baklava by the way! Or is it Arabic? Doesn't matter right? Not Hindu and I still appreciate it and that's all matters. Be well and work on some meditation as well in addition to online forums and analyzing Lay Hindus.

[dragonfire45]

Awesome. Apparently Chunyi Lin's wife is in the hospital. I have no idea what's going on. I know that a Shaolin Buddhist monk, Master Yao, healed her breast cancer a long time ago - probably over 20 years ago. Anyway Chunyi Lin has been so busy healing other people -- so know he's focused on healing his wife.

 

 

That's sad to hear. I met them both about nine months ago and she seemed to be doing well! Her liver seemed a little weak based on the vibes she gave. I thought it was impertinent to state that observation in front of the renowned healer himself. Hope she gets better soon again. Not sure if its a coincidence but a lot of healers I have known have family suffering from bad health problems.

 

Master Yao was a Taoist monk is what I have heard and has a student living/teaching in Canada. Don't know other details.

Edited May 19, 2010 by dragonfire45

[nac]

dragonfire: I'd have had to lie and dissimulate just to come up with the kinds of response I could tell you were expecting from me. Funny this is, if I had lied, you may have embraced me as a man of rare honesty. As I have bared my soul to you, you're telling me to come back when I ready to respond rather than react instead. If nothing else, you're a terrible judge of character.

[dragonfire45]

If nothing else, you're a terrible judge of character.

You are a self-professed victim of delusion. You are a better judge of character?

[nac]

You are a self-professed victim of delusion. You are a better judge of character?

Nope! But that doesn't make you any better at it.