Advaita and Buddhism are the Same After All

[ralis]

Certain words changed in the above quote to more closely reflect the facts.

 

Actually I know more about Schizophrenia directly from psychologists than you think. I also have friends in neurobiology and cognitive science who are getting their masters degrees and we have many discussions in person and on facebook pm's.

 

From Google/health

 

"Schizophrenia is a mental disorder that makes it difficult to tell

the difference between real and unreal experiences"

 

So what I said completely applies to Drew and his arrogant statements about me and plenty of others in here.

 

 

Unless you are a licensed therapist or psychiatrist, then you can't make such a diagnostic evaluation. That is a medical diagnosis not some pop psychology idea you may have.

 

ralis

[ralis]

Certain words changed in the above quote to more closely reflect the facts.

 

Actually I know more about Schizophrenia directly from psychologists than you think. I also have friends in neurobiology and cognitive science who are getting their masters degrees and we have many discussions in person and on facebook pm's.

 

From Google/health

 

"Schizophrenia is a mental disorder that makes it difficult to tell

the difference between real and unreal experiences"

 

So what I said completely applies to Drew and his arrogant statements about me and plenty of others in here.

 

 

I did not write that and you must change it back, now!

 

ralis

[Mal]

Vajrahridaya and Ralis lets try and play nice - o.k. ? (you have been doing rather well)

(edit the above is unfairly specific - everyone try to play nice )

 

Specifically to Vajrahridaya if you just want to come here and stir up the other TTB's please reconsider. Specifically by "stiring" I mean things like this

I just talk about how and why Buddhist realization is subtler and more complete according to Buddhist texts and teachers.

 

Personally I feel the subtext of such arguments is basically along the lines of "my religion is better than yours" and not likely to promote discussion but rather arguments. While you state that this is not your intent, history here shows that the usual result is the for and againt camps rally together and start taking pot shots at each other

 

Which is basically what is happening in this thread. Now if people want some lighthearted banter back and forth that's cool. But when things start to decend into telling others how they are, feelings get hurt and arguments escalate.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

Specifically to Vajrahridaya if you just want to come here and stir up the other TTB's please reconsider. Specifically by "stiring" I mean things like this

 

 

 

If you notice, I just stay on the debate threads. This is a debate thread after all. It just gets interesting when people don't debate view and attack the person. Drew attacks the person using his "superior psychic abilities" as a reference for knowing how peoples chakras are spinning. Ralis just spits hate. Dwai and plenty of others have been very good at debating and arguing their points. Which is actually quite nice and refreshing, but ralis and songs just like to straight attack without making any intelligent arguments.

[ralis]

If you notice, I just stay on the debate threads. This is a debate thread after all. It just gets interesting when people don't debate view and attack the person. Drew attacks the person using his "superior psychic abilities" as a reference for knowing how peoples chakras are spinning. Ralis just spits hate. Dwai and plenty of others have been very good at debating and arguing their points. Which is actually quite nice and refreshing, but ralis and songs just like to straight attack without making any intelligent arguments.

 

I don't hate. I am just challenging your opinions. It is impossible to debate you when you are so biased.

 

ralis

[yuanqi]

If you notice, I just stay on the debate threads. This is a debate thread after all. It just gets interesting when people don't debate view and attack the person. Drew attacks the person using his "superior psychic abilities" as a reference for knowing how peoples chakras are spinning. Ralis just spits hate. Dwai and plenty of others have been very good at debating and arguing their points. Which is actually quite nice and refreshing, but ralis and songs just like to straight attack without making any intelligent arguments.

 

I thought Drew left body back in 07 or 08. LOL Or was it someone else on this site that said they were getting ready to exit and then bam day 40 or 49 or whatever came and nothing happened, then they sought help out on here to figure out what they "missed" ROFL. I cant remember who it was, but man that was funny. Of course i never said anything back then but this thread brought it up in my mind so i was wondering who that was. Must have been reading "the wandering taoist" a little too much i think.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

I don't hate, either. Vaj has a slippery way of 'debating' where he somehow is always right and superior, and I really don't recall when he backs away from a point or takes the another's point of view.

 

He's Teflon and airtight, and when stymied, falls back on whatever he's saying is true because he has "perceived the Truth" in his meditative experiences. He's very aggressive, and when called on his style he turns all soft and innocent. When he previously was one of the top, if not the top posters in this forum, his obnoxious and grandiose-yes, grandiose- ramblings took over much of the forum for a while.

 

I see this happening again because he seems to hold a view of himself as a perfect, nearly enlightened spiritual practitioner who is here to enlighten the heathens. He basically is not in balance and his grandiose verbiage and self-image, as well as his ubiquity definitely seem to actually offend some, including me. He's very quick to say "you're wrong" and to tell people who they are and what level of spiritual development they lack and to tell them they're imbalanced or are 'ad hominem'. But for a realized being he cannot ever resist the arguments clothed in his zeal for Buddhism.

 

He is impossible to debate, because he does not think or write clearly, even though he is completely defensive in the face of those who tell him this. Some people can grasp what he is arguing, but to many others, it is just a vomiting of Buddhist words in post after post. And I oppose him based on his behavior here. He was divisive before, and his energizer bunny posting (I guess he can type really fast) just about guarantees that he always gets the last word.

 

He is a divisive force, and seemingly cannot reign himself in or have any insight as to how he comes across. So Mal, I think this call for civility will be futile.

 

I feel it is up to those who care to resist his take-over of a good forum. If you look back, he has gotten crosswise with quite a few members here, including Stigweard and Wayfarer64. None of us gets into it with anyone else, really, including ralis.

Edited May 20, 2010 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[Sunya]

I don't hate. I am just challenging your opinions. It is impossible to debate you when you are so biased.

 

ralis

 

I've called you out twice already and challenged your statements in this thread but have not received a response. Challenging someones opinions doesn't just mean writing your own opinions with exclamation points.. it also requires you to back them up when challenged. You're not debating, you're just presenting your opinion.

 

 

You guys are getting way too dramatic here. Let's all take a sip of some Cabernet and relax. Nobody is taking over the board. If you don't have interest in the topic then don't read or post here. Quite simply. These threads always seem to go downhill when people get personal and can't stick to the actual information that is being presented.

Edited May 20, 2010 by mikaelz

[Vajrahridaya]

 

 

You guys are getting way too dramatic here. Let's all take a sip of some Cabernet and relax.

 

Word to your Buddha! I'm sipping some Moosehead right now. A great beer by the way. Getting internet from the local McDonalds in Pompano Beach!

 

I've actually enjoyed debating with Dwai and some others in here, but ralis seems to bring the hate. It's nice to debate without the sarcasm and without so much anger. Passion is fine, just channel it constructively! I would expect Dwai to be passionate about his path. I must say, I am more than I should be.

 

I just love the realization Buddhadharma interprets through clarity and just express from there and will challenge views that don't seem congruent because view is quite paramount in all of Buddhism, every single version that follows the 4 seals, but I generally don't bash people unless they start to bash me. I wish I was more detached and more Buddharific.

 

Like I've said before, it does seem that Taoism can more easily be integrated with Buddhism than any other spiritual tradition on planet Earth. I also read threads that I don't even post in and am often happy with the responses towards other peoples problems and feel that there is nothing more to say because what needed to be said was said by our friendly neighborhood Taoists.

[Vajrahridaya]

I thought Drew left body back in 07 or 08. LOL Or was it someone else on this site that said they were getting ready to exit and then bam day 40 or 49 or whatever came and nothing happened, then they sought help out on here to figure out what they "missed" ROFL. I cant remember who it was, but man that was funny. Of course i never said anything back then but this thread brought it up in my mind so i was wondering who that was. Must have been reading "the wandering taoist" a little too much i think.

 

Wow... really? I could not say who it was because I just got here last year. That's pretty funny though! Yes, this shows that experience without view is just deeper and more powerful delusion, referencing more intense inner experiences... but samsaric none the less. No doubt most everyone here is probably going a good way though, and will evolve according to their virtue.

[C T]

but ralis seems to bring the hate.

A form of 'Ralism' propaganda perhaps?

(c'mon lets go 'Rile' up some buddhists says he... !!!)

[Apech]

I would defend V's right to post as he does and I have not seen anything where he claims to be enlightened or similar - in fact to the contrary.

 

I think it has to be understood that Buddhism generally takes the view that its View is the superior one. This can be misleading because Buddhists generally are gentle and easy going and in some people this gives rise to the impression that it might be possible to be eclectic and still Buddhist. This is not so. In taking refuge in the three jewels a Buddhist is saying that they exclusively go to the Buddha, Sangha and Dharma. It is not really possible to be Buddhist and Christian or Muslim, say because those religions tell you to appeal to God for help while Buddhism says that any such deity cannot give you liberation. For instance while it might be possible to say that Jesus displayed many of the characteristics of a Bodhisattva it is not possible to say that he was a Bodhisattva because he did not teach dharma or uphold emptiness and so on.

 

Within Tibetan Buddhism there are further developments of the Buddhist view especially in the 'higher' teachings such as Dzogchen where the View developed supports the realizations of emptiness, luminosity and so on. This View is seen as superior to all other views and is one which refutes the existence of any absolute ground or cause of reality - hence dependent origination taking center stage. When someone adopting this view looks at other non-dualist but non-Buddhist systems it seems that name is given to that which is beyond duality e.g Brahman, Tao etc. and because of the great stress in Buddhism on not making this into some kind underlying real substratum or cause - these other systems appear to take an inferior or incomplete view. V is simply taking the view of his school of Buddhism and arguing it.

 

Its true actually if you read the TTC while it starts by saying the Tao cannot be named (defined) and so on - it does elsewhere talk about it as a source or 'mother'. While I would take this as just a way of talking about the the ineffable, some might say that this makes the Tao into an underlying absolute real 'thing' - from which other things emerge - rather than the mysterious Way.

 

Even in Buddhism there are disputes over all this - the Zhentong and Rangtong views which have actually led to physical fighting between Tibetan sects in the past - so it is not surprising that it becomes heated on here.

 

I think it is always a problem for non-Dualists to express some of these things because the human mind always wants to resolve the mystery - often by creating a kind of hidden monism - a kind of eternalism - or otherwise by throwing the whole problem out with nihilism. I think what is important to us is to hold the paradox, hold the dilemma in our minds without trying to resolve it - or perhaps trying to resolve it but knowing that this is impossible. For instance we have a self and yet there is no self - both one and at the same time - this is far more enlightening than one or the other. See what I mean?

[RongzomFan]

Even in Buddhism there are disputes over all this - the Zhentong and Rangtong views which have actually led to physical fighting between Tibetan sects in the past - so it is not surprising that it becomes heated on here.

 

 

Do you have a source for this?

[Sunya]

nice post apepch

[nac]

This can be misleading because Buddhists generally are gentle and easy going and in some people this gives rise to the impression that it might be possible to be eclectic and still Buddhist. This is not so. In taking refuge in the three jewels a Buddhist is saying that they exclusively go to the Buddha, Sangha and Dharma.

Meh, only if you take tradition seriously. I'm an eclectic Buddhist. My favorite philosophies include (in no particular order) Process Philosophy, Transcendental Phenomenology, Buddhism, the western Analytical Tradition and Taoism. What's gonna happen? A dharmapala's gonna hunt down and slay me? I appreciate Buddhist tradition for at least tolerating other faiths. Islam was very big in old Tibet, even within Lhasa.

[Apech]

Meh, only if you take tradition seriously. I'm an eclectic Buddhist. My favorite philosophies include (in no particular order) Process Philosophy, Transcendental Phenomenology, Buddhism, the western Analytical Tradition and Taoism. What's gonna happen? A dharmapala's gonna hunt down and slay me? I appreciate Buddhist tradition for at least tolerating other faiths. Islam was very big in old Tibet, even within Lhasa.

 

Of course it is up to you what you believe and how you practice - and I wasn't suggesting anyone was going to be hunted down. I wasn't coming from that sort of thinking. I was stressing that taking refuge in the dharma means that a person is stating that liberation comes from that and not from a God. Buddhists may be tolerant as people and its a shame that Islam is not really reciprocal - in the 10th Century (I think) Islam drove Buddhism out of India - but this does not mean that they are prepared to dilute the dharma to the point where is would become, in their eyes, ineffective.

 

BTW I am not a Buddhist I am just commenting.

[nac]

this does not mean that they are prepared to dilute the dharma to the point where is would become, in their eyes, ineffective.

I think the condition is that if you don't accept the Four Seals, you shouldn't call yourself Buddhist because it's impossible to maintain The View (cue shrieking dakinis) without them.

 

BTW I am not a Buddhist I am just commenting.

Yeah, I know. Thanks.

 

PS. Actually, eclectic Buddhist is a bit of a misnomer because there's very little I reject from Buddhism.

Edited May 20, 2010 by nac

[voidisyinyang]

*Waits for this topic to once again explode into multiple debate threads which are dozens of pages long...*

 

Yep. You gottcha!!

[Vajrahridaya]

nice post apepch

 

I agree, a fine finish. My mother always said, "hold paradox lightly" young Padawan. Kidding about the Padawan part.

[RongzomFan]

It is the other way around. The Upanishads and Advaita came WAY after the Buddha (500 BC).

 

In fact Advaita was developed WAY after Nagarjuna as well (200 CE).

 

Here are some exerpts from the book The Essential Vedanta by Eliot Deutsch & Rohit Dalvi 2004.

 

"....much of Sankara's metaphysics, especialy his analysis of the world as maya, was taken from Buddhist sources. In any event a close relationship between the Mahayana schools and Vedanta did exist with the latter borrowing some dialectical techniques, if not specific doctrines, of the former." pg. 126

 

"Gaupada rather clearly draws from Buddhist philosophical sources for many of his arguments and distinctions and even for the forms and imagery in which these arguments were cast." pg. 157

 

Gaupada was the guru of Sankara's guru, so this shows that ripping of Buddhism, is a long tradition.

 

 

Oops misspelled something. It should have been Gaudapada.