Shamatha, Vipassana, Water Method

[alchemicalwizard]

Hi All,

 

I have been on Tao Bums for a while but have never posted. I am considering taking a Vipassana/Bruce Frantzis retreat and have a few questions.

 

The following is my understanding and I could be wrong:

 

- Shamatha is to induce calm and concentration/attention. It brings about the Jhana states and Samadhi and helps Vipassana practice. Practically, Anapanasati, Zazen or watching breath practices are popular forms of Shamatha.

 

Mantras, Mandala and Deity Visualizations etc. are also Shamatha kind of practices

 

Shamatha in itself can cleanse the energy body, open all channels and in some way can replace all of the explicit energy manipulation techniques - Qigong, Kundalini, Tummo, Trul Khor etc. These other explicit energy manipulation methods are added for the sake of accelerating progress. (?)

 

 

Now coming to Vipassana, rather than go by Suttas and polemic definitions, I would like to seek some practical guidance here. No Sutta-throwing please! I see there are two popular groups:

 

1. Goenka - teaches anapanasati for a bit, and then body scanning (like Jack Kornfield) - which are respectively his Shamatha and Vipassana techniques.

2. Mahasi tradition - teaches anapanasati with concentration on the rising and falling of the abdomen and teaches labeling the breath. His Vipassana is basically mindfulness with noting/labeling every activity as against simply observing body sensations in the case of Goenka. Goenka writes against the noting/labeling practice which is what Davind Ingram also teaches (he is from Mahasi group?)

 

Lately, I have been reading Bruce Frantzis stuff and I admit I have not got a hang of it completely. Here is what I think he says:

 

1. Outer dissolving - stand in horse stance, scan the body for tension or blockages, breathe into the blockage, be aware and dissolve it. So being mindful of the tension/blockage seems to be the same as Goenka's case. But here one breathes into the area and intends to dissolve the blockage. That is one difference I can see.

 

2. Inner dissolving - this seems pretty similar to Mahasi tradition but minus the labeling. You note the feelings that arise and simply be aware of them (I also thinks he says let go of them? Not sure if that differentiates Water method from Vipassana as there is nothing else there but for mindfulness, not even an effort to let go)?

 

So Water method is simply rehashed Shamatha-Vipassana with some additions - which seem to defeat the purpose of Vipassana? Especially considering Bruce's teacher's Buddhist background? Or is there more to the Water Method?

 

Also, are there other Vipassana approaches - I only know Mahasi and Goenka. What do Tao Bums like better? Goenka style of body scanning or Mahasi style mindfulness with noting/labeling every activity/thought?

 

Sorry for the long rambling but thanks in advance to all and any helpful input.

[al.]

Hi All,

 

I have been on Tao Bums for a while but have never posted. I am considering taking a Vipassana/Bruce Frantzis retreat and have a few questions.

 

The following is my understanding and I could be wrong:

 

- Shamatha is to induce calm and concentration/attention. It brings about the Jhana states and Samadhi and helps Vipassana practice. Practically, Anapanasati, Zazen or watching breath practices are popular forms of Shamatha.

 

Mantras, Mandala and Deity Visualizations etc. are also Shamatha kind of practices

 

Shamatha in itself can cleanse the energy body, open all channels and in some way can replace all of the explicit energy manipulation techniques - Qigong, Kundalini, Tummo, Trul Khor etc. These other explicit energy manipulation methods are added for the sake of accelerating progress. (?)

 

 

Now coming to Vipassana, rather than go by Suttas and polemic definitions, I would like to seek some practical guidance here. No Sutta-throwing please! I see there are two popular groups:

 

1. Goenka - teaches anapanasati for a bit, and then body scanning (like Jack Kornfield) - which are respectively his Shamatha and Vipassana techniques.

2. Mahasi tradition - teaches anapanasati with concentration on the rising and falling of the abdomen and teaches labeling the breath. His Vipassana is basically mindfulness with noting/labeling every activity as against simply observing body sensations in the case of Goenka. Goenka writes against the noting/labeling practice which is what Davind Ingram also teaches (he is from Mahasi group?)

 

Lately, I have been reading Bruce Frantzis stuff and I admit I have not got a hang of it completely. Here is what I think he says:

 

1. Outer dissolving - stand in horse stance, scan the body for tension or blockages, breathe into the blockage, be aware and dissolve it. So being mindful of the tension/blockage seems to be the same as Goenka's case. But here one breathes into the area and intends to dissolve the blockage. That is one difference I can see.

 

2. Inner dissolving - this seems pretty similar to Mahasi tradition but minus the labeling. You note the feelings that arise and simply be aware of them (I also thinks he says let go of them? Not sure if that differentiates Water method from Vipassana as there is nothing else there but for mindfulness, not even an effort to let go)?

 

So Water method is simply rehashed Shamatha-Vipassana with some additions - which seem to defeat the purpose of Vipassana? Especially considering Bruce's teacher's Buddhist background? Or is there more to the Water Method?

 

Also, are there other Vipassana approaches - I only know Mahasi and Goenka. What do Tao Bums like better? Goenka style of body scanning or Mahasi style mindfulness with noting/labeling every activity/thought?

 

Sorry for the long rambling but thanks in advance to all and any helpful input.

 

Hiya,

It seems you have a good grasp of these things already. I've only done a little Vipissana myself, so can't really comment, but must say it was much more 'trying' than Samatha. Once I established reasonable concentration, samatha practice makes for a much smoother experience day-to-day. I guess I can only go so far with it though, before having to address hindrances with Vipissana.

It does seems to open up the channels and smooth things out, but I find qigong neccessary to really work the physical tissues of the body. I think you've got it with the idea that these other energy techniques 'speed things up', but the difference is where you're going. For instance, most qigong is not moving towards spiritual development, but geared towards physical health, healing or martial application.

In regards to the Water method, it is a great practice, strongly recommeneded. I agree with your comments, but reckon it weighes much more on the Taoist than Buddhist side of things.

One thing which might be helpful though is applying the one-pointedness developed in Samatha to the Water method, as I reckon the stronger and more sharp-focused the concentration, the more effective the dissolving will be. Also, getting an anatomy book is really fantastic!

Good luck with retreat

A

[markern]

http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7515

 

You might find this thread interesting.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Hi All,

 

I have been on Tao Bums for a while but have never posted. I am considering taking a Vipassana/Bruce Frantzis retreat and have a few questions.

 

The following is my understanding and I could be wrong:

 

- Shamatha is to induce calm and concentration/attention. It brings about the Jhana states and Samadhi and helps Vipassana practice. Practically, Anapanasati, Zazen or watching breath practices are popular forms of Shamatha.

 

Mantras, Mandala and Deity Visualizations etc. are also Shamatha kind of practices

 

Shamatha in itself can cleanse the energy body, open all channels and in some way can replace all of the explicit energy manipulation techniques - Qigong, Kundalini, Tummo, Trul Khor etc. These other explicit energy manipulation methods are added for the sake of accelerating progress. (?)

 

 

Now coming to Vipassana, rather than go by Suttas and polemic definitions, I would like to seek some practical guidance here. No Sutta-throwing please! I see there are two popular groups:

 

1. Goenka - teaches anapanasati for a bit, and then body scanning (like Jack Kornfield) - which are respectively his Shamatha and Vipassana techniques.

2. Mahasi tradition - teaches anapanasati with concentration on the rising and falling of the abdomen and teaches labeling the breath. His Vipassana is basically mindfulness with noting/labeling every activity as against simply observing body sensations in the case of Goenka. Goenka writes against the noting/labeling practice which is what Davind Ingram also teaches (he is from Mahasi group?)

 

Lately, I have been reading Bruce Frantzis stuff and I admit I have not got a hang of it completely. Here is what I think he says:

 

1. Outer dissolving - stand in horse stance, scan the body for tension or blockages, breathe into the blockage, be aware and dissolve it. So being mindful of the tension/blockage seems to be the same as Goenka's case. But here one breathes into the area and intends to dissolve the blockage. That is one difference I can see.

 

2. Inner dissolving - this seems pretty similar to Mahasi tradition but minus the labeling. You note the feelings that arise and simply be aware of them (I also thinks he says let go of them? Not sure if that differentiates Water method from Vipassana as there is nothing else there but for mindfulness, not even an effort to let go)?

 

So Water method is simply rehashed Shamatha-Vipassana with some additions - which seem to defeat the purpose of Vipassana? Especially considering Bruce's teacher's Buddhist background? Or is there more to the Water Method?

 

Also, are there other Vipassana approaches - I only know Mahasi and Goenka. What do Tao Bums like better? Goenka style of body scanning or Mahasi style mindfulness with noting/labeling every activity/thought?

 

Sorry for the long rambling but thanks in advance to all and any helpful input.

 

The water method is more of an outlook on doing things. In many cases, the practices and states reached are the same, but it's the view of what those states are and how to get there that are different.

 

I'm not up to speed on the Buddhist terms, but there are two main types of meditations, ones in which you relax and are open to stuff, and ones in which you have a single pointed concentration on one thing. Both of them are useful for doing certain things.

 

B.K. Frantzis' water method that he teaches stresses on the first one in the initial stages. Once you reach a state where you can easily let go of stuff, focusing is easy, because rather than tensing up around focusing on one thing, you relax and let go of everything else until the one thing left is the only thing you have focus on.

 

Also, in the introduction horse stance isn't really what's used, it's sort of a wuji stance, palms facing backwards.

 

B.K. Frantzis has been discussed in a lot of threads, like this one:

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/14444-zhan-zhuang/

 

And this one:

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/14359-outer-dissolving/

 

And in those people discuss the difference between inner and outer dissolving, and some points on standing.

[forestofclarity]

AW,

 

There is a lot of differences in interpretation with Buddhism. There are hard jhanas and soft jhanas, sutta jhanas and visuddhamagga jhanas, expansive modes of concentration and restricted modes of concentration, all of which fall under the label, shamatha.

 

For vipassana, in addition to Goenka and Mahasi, you also have the Thai forest tradition relating to Ajahn Chah. Bhante G's monastics teach a more classical type of vipassana. Others teach the four foundations of mindfulness. Shiznen Young has a vipassana/Zen hybrid. You also have Thich Nhat Hanh style mindfulness in a Zen tradition, and Tibetan Buddhist practice.

 

There are many, many different types of both. There is no general consensus or agreement on them.

 

Good vipassana has as its object insight into the workings of reality and/or your body/mind. Qi gong is more about opening and developing energy channels. While I think the two work together, they are very different. I've had qigong openings while on vipassana retreats, and I've had vipassana-type insights after doing qigong.

 

If you have the time/money, I would probably suggest checking out both.

[Birch]

From experience. Qi-gong leads to Vipassana-like effects and vice-versa. Especially spontaneous qi-gong, which IME spontaneousy arose following KAP.

 

With more practice, I'm starting to see where my practice is lacking and the depths I can get to with various techniques. Also where I can't go (see my recent private post).

 

I now consider it bizarre for a teacher to say they only use one type of technique and I actually think in practice they don't;-)

 

But maybe it's more of a thing they say to differentiate the teacher? Systems are another kettle of fish entirely. But I would hope that any system offered be self-coherent (i.e not mixing stuff that shouldn't be mixed, otherwise would cause harm)and relatively open-source (i.e. if you want to find out all about it before deciding to practice it then that's possible).

[forestofclarity]

Yet strangely, I have noticed that those who practice only one or the other often (but not always) seem to have no idea about the other side.

 

From experience. Qi-gong leads to Vipassana-like effects and vice-versa. Especially spontaneous qi-gong, which IME spontaneousy arose following KAP.

[Tao of Pooh]

Hi friends :-)

There is another way to do Shamatha meditation :-)

There is a missconception out there that it is all about concentration and burning a whole in the object of observation LOL

It is not about concentrating at all but about "composing oneself into the object" rather shamatha is an Awareness of the Whole Body Breathing, not scanning not focusing not ... not separating anything from the whole body but embracing the whole body breathing/sensation experience :-)

While in this state one calms the body with each in and out breath, not by force but by simply being mindful of it. Mind usualy follows the relaxing body.

 

Thoughts, emotions and sensations arise. Notice them without judging them, let go and go back to calming the body but not clinging to the idea of calming the body ;-)

 

You see insight meditation is indeed a DIY project and one is to do it alone (not lonely but ALONE).

 

The conditoned self is a tricksey beastyx and will throw all sorts of crap at the meditator. Be compasionate towards it as much as possible and carry on with the calm abiding practice what Shamatha actualy IS.

 

Dont worry about Vipassana which is a naturaly acuring Insight and will arise from Shamatha on its own accord. One can not force Insight. Try and it will disapear. Try to achive calmness and restlessness takes place.

 

No focus no concentration no mantra, no teachers ... all this creates only more conditioning of the already fragmented mind.

 

Just to mention I practiced daily Shamatha for 10 month now. Stopped because some deep emotions started bubbling up and I just wasnt ready to let go of them. So taking a break and plunging back into the world of ignorance.

 

Friendly

[Jetsun]

With the Water Method there is a systematic downward scanning which creates the downward flow towards the earth, while correct me if I'm wrong but I thought in Buddhist methods it's more of a case of dealing with what comes up. As well as having an intention to dissolve this is a big difference in practice in my opinion.

[Guest sykkelpump]

I think you should consider this anapanasati.I belive it will give you the fastest and best results.

http://www.dhammasukha.org/

there are instruction audio and forum on the site.forum can help you if you have problems.The method is absolutley the simplest and the best and after practicing it I am confident this is what Buddha thaught.and not the feeling of the breath etc thyat other teach.

http://www.dhammasukha.org/Study/Books/Pdf/The%20Anapanasati%20Sutta%202.pdf

you might want to see this video first: http://www.myspace.com/video/vid/23058505

this video is love and kindness meditation,but it describes the importent thing about relaxing the mind,let the mind expand after you let go of a thought.this is the key also in his anapanasati meditation which i belive is the way to become enlightened

Edited December 23, 2010 by sykkelpump

[z00se]

From experience. Qi-gong leads to Vipassana-like effects and vice-versa. Especially spontaneous qi-gong, which IME spontaneousy arose following KAP.

 

Yeah i agree. It's passive or active meditation and both are useful and compliment each other. One inevitably leads to the other. Active becomes such hard work that you can't be bothered doing it any more and move on to reap the same benefits with the passive while not doing anything. Too much passive and you get bored or stale and need some more active.

 

I've done vipassana and it was so so so hard. Very good but very hard. Active mantak chia style was much easier but i didn't reap nearly as many short term benefits. But they complement each other and using both together you can benefit 100x more.

[Tao of Pooh]

I agree with Jetsun.

 

Fabricate nothing, cling to nothing, let all be. Calm the body with each in and outbreath. Compose youself into the whole body breathing sensations, calm yet not doozing off.

 

Goal orientated practice leads to restlessness. Without deep calm there is no insight there is no true non action.

 

See my signature. Mindful Calm abiding is the way to go. Try it and see for your self.

 

Fast results is an ego fabrication. Dont be a fool believing there are fast or long term fixes. There just Is. But with body calming the amygdala will calm itself too. Desire not the insight, it will come to be on its own accord." Wanting to" is a 100% ego tool to more suffering.

 

Friendly

[Jetsun]

I agree with Jetsun.

 

Fabricate nothing, cling to nothing, let all be. Calm the body with each in and outbreath. Compose youself into the whole body breathing sensations, calm yet not doozing off.

 

Goal orientated practice leads to restlessness. Without deep calm there is no insight there is no true non action.

 

See my signature. Mindful Calm abiding is the way to go. Try it and see for your self.

 

Fast results is an ego fabrication. Dont be a fool believing there are fast or long term fixes. There just Is. But with body calming the amygdala will calm itself too. Desire not the insight, it will come to be on its own accord." Wanting to" is a 100% ego tool to more suffering.

 

Friendly

 

I do agree with you that on the surface goal oriented practice can just lead to more stress and less peace but on the other hand it is possible that a goal oriented practice can lead to that peaceful state as a natural consequence. For example with the Water Method you start the practice with specific intent so immeditely there is less peace than just witnessing becase you are actively trying to make things happen, but then when you find a blockage and internally dissolve it you can end up at a state of relative emptiness very quickly with no inent or stress. For example in my own limited practice I started sensing around my head and quickly found the energy of anger which increased my stress, but then I started inner dissolving it by observing the energy below the anger, then the energy below that then the energy below that until I got to a stage which is completely empty of any cause and there is peace and in that instant that whole energy structure and block with anger at its surface collapses or implodes as it's root is found to be empty and that part of your nervous system immediately relaxes while you experience a few moments of peace. So in a way even though it begins with intent it ends up at the same place of no intent and no identification as other more natural meditation do.

[adept]

I think you should consider this anapanasati.I belive it will give you the fastest and best results.

http://www.dhammasukha.org/

there are instruction audio and forum on the site.forum can help you if you have problems.The method is absolutley the simplest and the best and after practicing it I am confident this is what Buddha thaught.and not the feeling of the breath etc thyat other teach.

http://www.dhammasukha.org/Study/Books/Pdf/The%20Anapanasati%20Sutta%202.pdf

you might want to see this video first: http://www.myspace.com/video/vid/23058505

this video is love and kindness meditation,but it describes the importent thing about relaxing the mind,let the mind expand after you let go of a thought.this is the key also in his anapanasati meditation which i belive is the way to become enlightened

 

Thanks for the links sykkelpump. Very, very impressive and easily explained by Vimalaramsi.

Myself, I've been on a plateau with my vipassana practice for quite a while now.

After watching the videos and reading from the website, I'm changing my meditation practice to this.

Can't believe that this method has been overlooked. Especially as it's found in the suttas.

 

Best wishes

[johndoe2012]

you might want to see this video first: http://www.myspace.com/video/vid/23058505

this video is love and kindness meditation,but it describes the importent thing about relaxing the mind,let the mind expand after you let go of a thought.this is the key also in his anapanasati meditation which i belive is the way to become enlightened

 

thanks for the link to the video.

 

The way he spoke reminded me of Bruce Frantzis in his description of the water method, by the way. Maybe it is because they have let go of so much tension that they seem so relaxed

[寒月 Hanyue]

[Tao of Pooh]

Isnt this disolving (fabricated visualisation) the same as simple noting of thoughts/emotions/sensations in Shamatha, unclinging from them by bringing the awareness back to the whole body breathing. Not the breath itself here is where most people make a huge mistake by clinging to the breath as the object of meditation or burning holes with concentration in their bellies and noses LoL

 

Anger, worry, stress is the whole part of our body-mind, confined in the whole. To "disolve" it the whole body-mind is to be aproached, awareness set to awake yet calm, relaxed, over the whole body-mind without judging it without defining it.

 

Egoself finds it hard to let things as they are. Egoself loves games like disolving or visualising etc rituals ideas goals and what not.

The egoself needs attention (energy) at all times. Cutting off energy makes it wild, crazy. It fights its way back and here is where meditators fail to understand the true nature of the self and search for methods which suit the egoself, the actual trouble maker

 

Friendly

[寒月 Hanyue]

Isnt this disolving (fabricated visualisation) the same as simple noting of thoughts/emotions/sensations in Shamatha, unclinging from them by bringing the awareness back to the whole body breathing. Not the breath itself here is where most people make a huge mistake by clinging to the breath as the object of meditation or burning holes with concentration in their bellies and noses LoL

 

Anger, worry, stress is the whole part of our body-mind, confined in the whole. To "disolve" it the whole body-mind is to be aproached, awareness set to awake yet calm, relaxed, over the whole body-mind without judging it without defining it.

 

Egoself finds it hard to let things as they are. Egoself loves games like disolving or visualising etc rituals ideas goals and what not.

The egoself needs attention (energy) at all times. Cutting off energy makes it wild, crazy. It fights its way back and here is where meditators fail to understand the true nature of the self and search for methods which suit the egoself, the actual trouble maker

 

Friendly

 

I get what you are saying, but please be aware that while this may reflect the approaches and methods of some forms of meditation, this description is not of the water traditions approach or methods. Dissolving is a natural process not a product of mind overlayed on that which is actually occuring within the moment, let alone a 'visualisation' of some kind, not even a tactile one.

 

This is not an attempt to say water method is better than any other, just to say your comments do not really apply. Apples and oranges.

 

The progressive nature of releasing the ego within water method is, as with all things, governed by the 70% rule.

 

Best,

[寒月 Hanyue]

I like how you put that. I find it the case as well.

 

Question, if I may: To which (Water Method) layer have you dissolved?

 

OK second attempt as my first one got eaten by the interweb pixies.

 

Quite simply, I have no idea. I don't try to get that. I suppose part of my awareness attaches certain things to the experiences afterwards(even then I try to avoid my overly analytical side, sometimes I win sometimes I lose), but during I do my best to simply be, remain present and aware of now and to release or dissolve whatever comes up whether gross or subtle, physical, emotional, energetic or anything at all. I try to feel and release and witness.

 

best,

[Tao of Pooh]

I wonder what is it you disolve with? And what is the motive behind wanting to disolve anything?

If awareness is the tool to disolve than Shamatha and water method are the same as well as Shikantaza.

Many have misunderstood Shamatha as a concentration method involving the breath but that is just another conditioned idea. Awareness of the whole without engagement without judging without disolving. Disolving is nothing more but clinging to a goal = to disolve

 

This is just my view of course, you can feel free to pursue what ever of course. Just sharing.

 

Any meditation is better than no meditation.

 

Friendly

[寒月 Hanyue]

I wonder what is it you disolve with? And what is the motive behind wanting to disolve anything?

If awareness is the tool to disolve than Shamatha and water method are the same as well as Shikantaza.

Many have misunderstood Shamatha as a concentration method involving the breath but that is just another conditioned idea. Awareness of the whole without engagement without judging without disolving. Disolving is nothing more but clinging to a goal = to disolve

 

This is just my view of course, you can feel free to pursue what ever of course. Just sharing.

 

Any meditation is better than no meditation.

 

Friendly

 

Meeow!, if you can put your passive aggressive claws away and and ask questions nicely without the underhand remarks (underlined), maybe you'd get clear answers.

 

As is, the bold shows you lack an understanding of the Water method, so regardless of your knowledge of anything else you have no comparison.

 

Happy meditating doing what you're doing as you clearly don't really care about anything else, if it works for you great keep doing it. You don't need anything else.

[Tao of Pooh]

You chose to see my reply that way and i can only ask you to re-read it again and avoid acting hurt where nothing atacked you my friend and try to answer my questions about this water method so i can understand it better.

Remain mindful remain relaxed.

Friendly

[寒月 Hanyue]

 

Sorry, not hurt, simply mindful and plenty relaxed, I just don't bite at bait.

 

Happy practicing,

[Tao of Pooh]

 

Sorry, not hurt, simply mindful and plenty relaxed, I just don't bite at bait.

 

Happy practicing,

 

So many smileys tells me you are an insecure person who calls him self a monk(i).

From your post I would say you are a teenager and I understand your stance and have respect for it, I too was a teenager once :-)

Another thing you have tought me about this water method is that it maybe develops mindfulness and relaxation but certainly not compassion which is what counts in the actual life.

Practice which doesnt give birth to compassion is just another way to feed the ego monk(i) (or not? we can agree to disagree, or? )

 

I shall go away now and live you to it. Thanks for the lesson though, friend.

 

All the best on your journey.

Friendly TofP

[Jetsun]

The issue with intent is something I was struggling with when doing the Water Method for some time as it did appear the intent to dissolve something could come from a ego desire, but before you declare so many conclusions without any personal experience I would recommend trying it as it is different from Shamatha and in my opinion it brings you to a relative state of emptiness very quickly even though it begins with an intent.

 

You dissolve with your attention but the differerence is that the focus is a systematic scanning of blockages rather than just observing what arises. There are merits to both methods, my observation is the systematic method forces you to confront patterns and blockages you could be subconsciously trying to avoid when in the pure witnessing method and is more likely to help you confront shadow mind material, because by systematically going through your body it leaves no place for anywhere to hide or any place not integrated.

 

The focus is on letting go rather than compassion but the compassion naturally arises when you reduce the tensions which restrict your heart.

 

I don't think dissolving is about trying to get rid of anything from an ego controlling motive rather it is to direct your mind to discover the inherent emptiness of the things you dissolve

Edited January 2, 2011 by Jetsun