Shamatha, Vipassana, Water Method

[寒月 Hanyue]

Poignant post Jetsun

 

I'd love to hear more from others about their understanding and experiences of dissolving. It all helps to see things clearer.

 

The issue with intent is something I was struggling with when doing the Water Method for some time as it did appear the intent to dissolve something could come from a ego desire,

 

Yeah, I have to say I think Bruce can over-complicate things trying to break them down to make them easier for people. His descriptions of dissolving in his first two books are quite unclear IMHO, and have only come to make sense after direct instruction and practice. I personally would never recommend the books as stand alone learning to anyone, but then wouldn't with any other method either really.

 

Bruce told us earlier this year that dissolving can either be done with intent or not. So, to use my own descriptions, one way is to be aware of a problem and to specifically practice to dissolve that, like a symptom/prescription thing. This of course brings with it all the, sensitivity to be aware of the actual problem and so on. Which is why the approach to dissolving in this way is done by following the energy behind the symptom back to its source in the attempt to release and let go of that anchor.

 

The other approach is more directly related to zuo wang, and is sitting and allowing and dissolving what comes up. Both are valid approaches for different purposes within the Water method.

 

As for ego highjacking your practice, personally I think that can easily happen regardless of the method, it will just take different forms.

 

but before you declare so many conclusions without any personal experience I would recommend trying it as it is different from Shamatha and in my opinion it brings you to a relative state of emptiness very quickly even though it begins with an intent.

 

Completely.

 

And where should you stop with the use of intent? This is a question. Do you have intent when you sit to practice? otherwise why are you sitting? Do you have the intent to practice daily? Where is the line between intent, and experience?

 

So unless you have got to the 24/7 living your life is your practice stage, you will have some intent regarding cultivation, you have to.

 

I think expectation is what needs to be avoided. The intention that latches on to expectations from practice. This can become a circular thing that traps you in the future, or the past and prevent full awareness of the present.

 

 

You dissolve with your attention but the differerence is that the focus is a systematic scanning of blockages rather than just observing what arises. There are merits to both methods, my observation is the systematic method forces you to confront patterns and blockages you could be subconsciously trying to avoid when in the pure witnessing method and is more likely to help you confront shadow mind material, because by systematically going through your body it leaves no place for anywhere to hide or any place not integrated.

 

Exactly, nicely put. Sitting and being, you can easily belief yourself to be much more aware than you are. Hiding our crap from ourselves is something we are very good at.

 

The focus is on letting go rather than compassion but the compassion naturally arises when you reduce the tensions which restrict your heart.

 

Interestingly Zhuang Zi argues in his writings against compassion. I think the Daoist and Buddhist understandings and approaches to such things is one of the main areas of difference between them. I think kindness is important, and one of the fundamental aspects of relationship with people, but I do find this somewhat different to the attempts at all out blanket compassion I have come across in those trying to follow the Buddhist path. In fact I have only met a small number who actually (through repeated actions) convinced me they are genuinely compassionate in the Buddhist sense. Most act it out, but the heart is not there.

 

As you say, kindness will naturally be present once the crap is dissolved (as will ALL states of being that will change according to the rhythms of life, nothing is static). I do not aim to 'have' compassion, which to me is definitely an ego craving in many I have met. To release all that is not you, to fully let go of that which is distorting your xin (being) and to allow that to simply be. Is different from specifically cultivating states of being such as compassion. Not arguing a right or wrong here, simply saying there is a difference.

 

I don't think dissolving is about trying to get rid of anything from an ego controlling motive rather it is to direct your mind to discover the inherent emptiness of the things you dissolve

 

Thats a nice way of putting it. I agree, dissolving is not an ego thing, because it is not something you do, it is something that happens if 'allowed'. The use of the yi is that same as many methods of meditation, so if using it means ego is involved then all meditation methods suffer from the same issues (which they do).

 

My feelings are that we hold on to things unknowingly, for many reasons, and dissolving is simply the natural process of letting go of them, which for whatever reason has not happened and we are, in that place, 'stuck'. As we move to be more fully aware, they are released naturally, as that is what should have happened but didn't. The scanning is simply a method that allows us to become increasingly aware of where this holding is occurring.

 

Best,

[Otis]

Poignant post Jetsun

 

I'd love to hear more from others about their understanding and experiences of dissolving. It all helps to see things clearer.

 

 

 

Yeah, I have to say I think Bruce can over-complicate things trying to break them down to make them easier for people. His descriptions of dissolving in his first two books are quite unclear IMHO, and have only come to make sense after direct instruction and practice. I personally would never recommend the books as stand alone learning to anyone, but then wouldn't with any other method either really.

 

Bruce told us earlier this year that dissolving can either be done with intent or not. So, to use my own descriptions, one way is to be aware of a problem and to specifically practice to dissolve that, like a symptom/prescription thing. This of course brings with it all the, sensitivity to be aware of the actual problem and so on. Which is why the approach to dissolving in this way is done by following the energy behind the symptom back to its source in the attempt to release and let go of that anchor.

 

The other approach is more directly related to zuo wang, and is sitting and allowing and dissolving what comes up. Both are valid approaches for different purposes within the Water method.

 

As for ego highjacking your practice, personally I think that can easily happen regardless of the method, it will just take different forms.

 

 

 

Completely.

 

And where should you stop with the use of intent? This is a question. Do you have intent when you sit to practice? otherwise why are you sitting? Do you have the intent to practice daily? Where is the line between intent, and experience?

 

So unless you have got to the 24/7 living your life is your practice stage, you will have some intent regarding cultivation, you have to.

 

I think expectation is what needs to be avoided. The intention that latches on to expectations from practice. This can become a circular thing that traps you in the future, or the past and prevent full awareness of the present.

 

Exactly, nicely put. Sitting and being, you can easily belief yourself to be much more aware than you are. Hiding our crap from ourselves is something we are very good at.

 

Interestingly Zhuang Zi argues in his writings against compassion. I think the Daoist and Buddhist understandings and approaches to such things is one of the main areas of difference between them. I think kindness is important, and one of the fundamental aspects of relationship with people, but I do find this somewhat different to the attempts at all out blanket compassion I have come across in those trying to follow the Buddhist path. In fact I have only met a small number who actually (through repeated actions) convinced me they are genuinely compassionate in the Buddhist sense. Most act it out, but the heart is not there.

 

As you say, kindness will naturally be present once the crap is dissolved (as will ALL states of being that will change according to the rhythms of life, nothing is static). I do not aim to 'have' compassion, which to me is definitely an ego craving in many I have met. To release all that is not you, to fully let go of that which is distorting your xin (being) and to allow that to simply be. Is different from specifically cultivating states of being such as compassion. Not arguing a right or wrong here, simply saying there is a difference.

 

Thats a nice way of putting it. I agree, dissolving is not an ego thing, because it is not something you do, it is something that happens if 'allowed'. The use of the yi is that same as many methods of meditation, so if using it means ego is involved then all meditation methods suffer from the same issues (which they do).

 

My feelings are that we hold on to things unknowingly, for many reasons, and dissolving is simply the natural process of letting go of them, which for whatever reason has not happened and we are, in that place, 'stuck'. As we move to be more fully aware, they are released naturally, as that is what should have happened but didn't. The scanning is simply a method that allows us to become increasingly aware of where this holding is occurring.

 

Best,

Excellent!

[Jetsun]

I think it may be an issue about level of practice, in my experience anyway Taoist methods like the Water Method generally aim first of all to bring a person to balance before they move onto the higher spiritual goals, so they start out with you realising the emptiness of small things like the emptiness of the energy pattern which is putting you in a bad mood or the emptiness of the pain in your back, which liberates your energy and improves your health and gives you a stable grounding to work from. Once you experience the emptiness of small things you can then work on realising the emptiness of big things without being sabotaged by things you haven't dealt with in your foundations. Whereas many Buddhist practices jump straight into trying to realise the emptiness of the big one, the ego, which may be the right approach for naturally balanced, simple, healthy people, unfortunately I don't see many of those around in our modern society.

[LingQi]

Yes, knowing Bruce Francis, he has no direct experience with the Vipasana practice or the traditions of Goenka-ji and Mahasi Sayadaw. The water method dissolving practice is more than a rehashing of body scanning from these two traditions.

the distinctions come primarily from the more direct connection through the field of the body with the breath and the intention.

[Tsunami_MAPUA]

^rehashed or not, if he's able to present it in a way that leads people like me to explore meditation, then I don't think there's any harm done.

 

To be honest, with Bruce pointing me in different Taoist practices, I don't think I'll have the time or inclination to explore Buddhist traditions and practices. But to be safe, I won't state The Water Method is better. I only believe it makes sense as far as I'm concerned.