TzuJanLi Posted May 13, 2010 Greetings.. Hi Vajrahridaya: Naturally, a Buddhist will assume they can improve Simplicity, because it's not true simplicity until a Buddhist has complicated it beyond recognition, first.. what a hoot.. Be well.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajrahridaya Posted May 13, 2010 Greetings.. Hi Vajrahridaya: Naturally, a Buddhist will assume they can improve Simplicity, because it's not true simplicity until a Buddhist has complicated it beyond recognition, first.. what a hoot.. Be well.. Simple is complex and complex is simple. Your state of reference seems quite dualistic. I beg my pardon if this seems off color... but... This statement of yours is an example of a complete misunderstanding of intention. You obviously also misunderstand the intention of the whole of Buddhism as it appears on Earth. You can't repress what is vast and amazing through a contrived state of simplicity for more than a few eons. That could comprise many, many lives or indeed, a few great high so called "immortal" lives. What many Taoists don't get, is that the cosmos is much vaster than the philosophy holds. Buddhism seems to be the only philosophy on the planet that sees the complexities with ease. I don't have to think to know... chatter is not chatter to me... I've spent many hours a day for years stilling the social aspect of mind. Now, all I have to do is contemplate meditative experience and the information is there as inter-connectivity is realized instantaneously without effort, beyond thought, though thought merely expresses in encapsulations as attempts to convey experience. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajrahridaya Posted May 13, 2010 Ok, so the Buddha doesn't have so called "free will." Annnnd sure he is a nice guy. Okey dokey. Just another part of the play. Ok yes... The Buddha doesn't have Omnipotence which would be an example of free will. He just has omnipresent omniscience. There is no one being that has omnipotence as we are all interconnected, you could say that we are collectively omnipotent. Like if all of a sudden every sentient being manifested the same intention, then the entire cosmos would manifest this intention. But... that's not how things are... everyone has intentions going in various directions, thus, the cosmos is so multi-various. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TzuJanLi Posted May 13, 2010 Greetings.. Buddhism seems to be the only philosophy on the planet that sees the complexities it has conjured with such arrogance pretended as ease. Buddhism creates the suffering then solicits people to abandon their common-sense to eliminate their 'illusion' of suffering.. to pronounce 'Life is suffering', is only half of the equation.. Life is also indescribable magnificence.. Buddhists are 'glass half empty kind of folks' anyhow.. Be well.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajrahridaya Posted May 13, 2010 (edited) Greetings.. Buddhism seems to be the only philosophy on the planet that sees the complexities it has conjured with such arrogance pretended as ease. Buddhism creates the suffering then solicits people to abandon their common-sense to eliminate their 'illusion' of suffering.. to pronounce 'Life is suffering', is only half of the equation.. Life is also indescribable magnificence.. Buddhists are 'glass half empty kind of folks' anyhow.. Be well.. You are misunderstanding the 4 noble truths. The 1st being, "There is suffering", not that it's all a bunch of suffering, but you transcend the mass of suffering through Buddhism. Once you see how deep your ignorance goes directly through meditation... into lifetimes. How many times you have been ignorant, animals, bugs, different types of beings of variant intelligence... etc. You realize that you want to see through this. Even though you delight in many things and there are many glorious things, even these are considered distractions if you don't see right into the truth of everything, because these delightful things will pass, you will grow old, and you will die. If you have not cultivated the path, you will not know where you go after death and even if you know where you go after death, you may not know where after this. Buddhism is about total omniscience. Not just about feeling nice while you life. Buddhism will challenge your comfort zones. You obviously suffer under your interpretation of our existence here. This is an ignorance that Buddhism can rectify. The 2nd noble truth is suffering has a cause. This is ignorance. The 3rd is that there is an end to suffering. This is Nirvana. The 4th is that the way is the 8 fold noble path. This is Buddhism. #1The Nature of Suffering (Dukkha):"This is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair are suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering." #2 Suffering's Origin (Dukkha Samudaya): "This is the noble truth of the origin of suffering: it is this craving which leads to renewed existence, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there, that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for existence, craving for extermination." #3 Suffering's Cessation (Dukkha Nirodha): "This is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering: it is the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving, the giving up and relinquishing of it, freedom from it, nonreliance on it."[4][5] #4 The Path (Dukkha Nirodha Gamini Patipada Magga) Leading to the Cessation of Suffering: "This is the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering: it is the Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration." Clearly you don't know what your talking about when it comes to Buddhism. Which is a good thing. This gives you space to learn something new! If you care to. I do remember having this very discussion before. Don't you remember the previous corrections of these assumptions? Edited May 13, 2010 by Vajrahridaya Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajrahridaya Posted May 13, 2010 (edited) Buddhists are 'glass half empty kind of folks' anyhow.. "Half Empty!?" No no... it's AAAAALLLLLLLLLLLL empty!! This gives plenty of space for my laughter!! Edited May 13, 2010 by Vajrahridaya Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
C T Posted May 13, 2010 Greetings.. Buddhism seems to be the only philosophy on the planet that sees the complexities it has conjured with such arrogance pretended as ease. Buddhism creates the suffering then solicits people to abandon their common-sense to eliminate their 'illusion' of suffering.. to pronounce 'Life is suffering', is only half of the equation.. Life is also indescribable magnificence.. Buddhists are 'glass half empty kind of folks' anyhow.. Be well.. Its also the only philosophy that does not promote extremism, encourages kindness and compassion, and to do no harm if kindness and compassion is beyond one's reach momentarily. If Buddhism did 'create' anything significant, it would have to be the wisdom that leads to the complete and utter dissolution of the illusion that one is bound in greater or lesser ways by the 'fetters of mind'. Having this as a basis for contemplation, i would disagree that Buddhists view life as 'glass half empty' - more to the contrary, i'd wager. But i guess with your mindset, you'd probably take this lead and say that Buddhists are a contrary bunch anyways.... You know what Tzu... you win. There is no penetrating that clear mind of yours. You truly exemplify the non-bending straight line that Stig put up in one of his posts. If you ask me, i'd say you're a GAS man (Irish slang for a funny guy btw). You be well as well... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted May 13, 2010 The Dalai Lama is a long term guest in vast land of India.... where the first and deepest law is non-violence to all beings; and I'm sure He is thankful for that and to his largely Hindu hosts. So whoever of us pisses the farest may win the pissing contest but still only be a pisser. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky7Strikes Posted May 13, 2010 (edited) It's difficult to have an inquiring discussion with non-Buddhists using Buddhist related terminology. It just lead to miscommunication and misunderstanding. All this is fine I think. Each has his own path. I myself prefer Daoist vocabulary. I find it much more poetic (reason I signed up here in the very fist place). But rarely use it because I've been wrestling with Buddhists here ever since. . Edited May 13, 2010 by Lucky7Strikes Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky7Strikes Posted May 13, 2010 What many Taoists don't get, is that the cosmos is much vaster than the philosophy holds. This really doesn't help anyone! . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajrahridaya Posted May 13, 2010 This really doesn't help anyone! . Maybe not you... then again, maybe it challenges your sense of self? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajrahridaya Posted May 13, 2010 (edited) This really doesn't help anyone! . It's also a fact that Buddhist cosmology is much vaster. This has nothing to do with being Buddhist or Taoist. It's just textually and objectively true, Buddhist cosmology says more about what's going on out there. Taoism may have some poetry and mostly ambiguity... Buddhism is about clarity, and poetry second. It is different... this has nothing to do with emotional attachment or karmic connection, but the fact remains is that it has more to offer as far as clarity goes. Though it is available for integration with most of Taoism at the same time. It's not at odds with much of it. Actually I think Zen Koan style poetry is inspired by Taoist style poetry. The Ambiguity can lead to open contemplation, but there must be a direction and I'm not quite sure that Taoism has that clear direction. I personally love Taoist and Zen poetry though... but I interpret through Buddhist eyes. I want to clarify that there still might be secret Taoist lineages that reveal more than what is readily available to people. There is the fact that we as a masses wouldn't know about the secret Tibetan teachings if it wasn't for the Chinese invasion. At least, not for the most part... I don't know what could be hidden in the Chinese mountains? I'm sure it's quite interesting. Edited May 13, 2010 by Vajrahridaya Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralis Posted May 13, 2010 It's also a fact that Buddhist cosmology is much vaster. This has nothing to do with being Buddhist or Taoist. It's just textually and objectively true, Buddhist cosmology says more about what's going on out there. Buddhism is not objective and is only another point of view. So called objectivity is only an approximation of the universe. Absolute objectivity does not exist. ralis Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralis Posted May 13, 2010 This really doesn't help anyone! . I agree! This is Vajraji's fundamentalist arrogance at it's finest. ralis Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralis Posted May 13, 2010 (edited) I don't know what could be hidden in the Chinese mountains? I'm sure it's quite interesting. How do you know it is interesting if you don't know what it is? ralis Edited May 13, 2010 by ralis Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralis Posted May 13, 2010 Oh right... yes ok! More to the point. Though a realm lord Buddha, like Amitabha actually wills a realm into being with all sorts of conditions to benefit beings dharmically. Though of course this will to do so is conditioned by the fact that there are needy people. So yes... will is always a conditioned thing. It's just whether or not it follows blissful and liberating conditions or contracted, fearful conditions for the choices it makes. How does this mythological world of yours benefit beings? I liken this to psychological experiments of rats in a maze. I suppose that inquisitions, wars and Nazi death camp experiments are all sanctioned by your realm lord. Does your realm lord derive pleasure from the suffering of us lowly beings? ralis Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky7Strikes Posted May 13, 2010 (edited) It's also a fact that Buddhist cosmology is much vaster. This has nothing to do with being Buddhist or Taoist. It's just textually and objectively true, Buddhist cosmology says more about what's going on out there. Taoism may have some poetry and mostly ambiguity... Buddhism is about clarity, and poetry second. It is different... this has nothing to do with emotional attachment or karmic connection, but the fact remains is that it has more to offer as far as clarity goes. Though it is available for integration with most of Taoism at the same time. It's not at odds with much of it. Actually I think Zen Koan style poetry is inspired by Taoist style poetry. The Ambiguity can lead to open contemplation, but there must be a direction and I'm not quite sure that Taoism has that clear direction. I personally love Taoist and Zen poetry though... but I interpret through Buddhist eyes. I want to clarify that there still might be secret Taoist lineages that reveal more than what is readily available to people. There is the fact that we as a masses wouldn't know about the secret Tibetan teachings if it wasn't for the Chinese invasion. At least, not for the most part... I don't know what could be hidden in the Chinese mountains? I'm sure it's quite interesting. Vajra, my comment wasn't about whether Taoism is superior or Buddhism is superior. It was really about effective communication. When you out right declare that Taoism is inferior or that they "don't get it", people tend to ignore or want to ignore what you might say after hand because you come out as a bigot (and you are not). People usually don't like that. Anyways, I wouldn't insult Taoism so readily. It's language can suit Buddhist reality just as well. And it's not as mysterious as you might think. Just look at TCM and its modern influence. But this is besides the point. Skillful means is important in Buddhism right? Edited May 13, 2010 by Lucky7Strikes Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted May 13, 2010 How does this mythological world of yours benefit beings? I liken this to psychological experiments of rats in a maze. I suppose that inquisitions, wars and Nazi death camp experiments are all sanctioned by your realm lord. Does your realm lord derive pleasure from the suffering of us lowly beings? ralis and the winner of this weeks Godwin's law prize goes to... Ralis Godwins: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1." circa 1990 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rakushun Posted May 13, 2010 I myself prefer Daoist vocabulary. I find it much more poetic (reason I signed up here in the very fist place). But rarely use it because I've been wrestling with Buddhists here ever since. . To wrestle with anybody, whether Daoists, Buddhists, or purple people seems very undaoist to me. The notion of struggling also seems to miss the mark of the daoist path. Just a sharing from the mind of a dirty beginner. Be well! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RyanO Posted May 13, 2010 Taoism may have some poetry and mostly ambiguity... Buddhism is about clarity, and poetry second. Clarity at the expense of honesty is not clarity. Buddhist cosmology...what kinds of reasons to you have for believing in all that? I prefer Taoism's reverence for the Mystery. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky7Strikes Posted May 13, 2010 (edited) To wrestle with anybody, whether Daoists, Buddhists, or purple people seems very undaoist to me. The notion of struggling also seems to miss the mark of the daoist path. Just a sharing from the mind of a dirty beginner. Be well! That's very very ironic!! Considering what this thread is about! But there's nothing wrong with wrestling. Trying to not wrestle is also very undaoist! . Edited May 13, 2010 by Lucky7Strikes Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rakushun Posted May 13, 2010 That's very very ironic!! Considering what this thread is about! But there's nothing wrong with wrestling. Trying to not wrestle is also very undaoist! . LOL! You are right, it is ironic. But don't the paradoxes usually approach closest to the Dao? Wrestling is daoist when the participants are willing and able. Also, My comment was more directed in general where I see on the forums a lot of unnecessary huffing-n-puffing wrestling by self-labeled daoists, buddhists, etc. The wording in your post just reminded me of that contrast. You are cool in my book Lucky7strikes. I've always picture the daoist as sitting on a tranquil mountaintop, sipping on soothing tea, and enjoying the vista. This wrestling in the mud business seems much too strenuous and more apt for the worldly folks. Just curious, and by no means intending disrespect: have you achieved non-dual conscious awareness? I myself have not done so. Cheers! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajrahridaya Posted May 13, 2010 Buddhism is not objective and is only another point of view. So called objectivity is only an approximation of the universe. Absolute objectivity does not exist. ralis It does for a Buddha because they've released their cognizance from it's binding conditions of duality. That's what makes enlightenment so grand! You finally see the truth of the cosmos free from dualistic concepts and identities. Even while you use them to communicate, they hold no power of bondage over a speaking Buddha. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajrahridaya Posted May 13, 2010 How do you know it is interesting if you don't know what it is? ralis I've seen various movies and read various books. They were interesting and they talked a bit about what used to be in the Chinese mountains before it was all destroyed. I'm sure plenty of mountain lineages still exist in secret. I've seen a recent documentary about such facts. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajrahridaya Posted May 13, 2010 (edited) How does this mythological world of yours benefit beings? I liken this to psychological experiments of rats in a maze. I suppose that inquisitions, wars and Nazi death camp experiments are all sanctioned by your realm lord. Does your realm lord derive pleasure from the suffering of us lowly beings? ralis No, it's a pureland where only beneficial things occur, no racial oppression or anything like this. You get there by intensely focusing on such as a practice and then when you're meat bag dies, your mind transfers there automatically and manifests a body of lesser density, more light. Of course a practitioner of pureland will have practiced the virtues and unraveled plenty of their neurotic tendencies while on Earth in order to facilitate a light body with very little to no baggage in a pureland. There are no death camps, and only pleasurable frictions. Far more pleasurable than the ones most people have here, unless they are realized yogi's of course. Then for these beings, the inner pureland is everywhere and anywhere. Ralis, it's pure fantasy to think that you only have on life to live and that when your body dies, you actually die. This is what I call a grand fantasy. Edited May 13, 2010 by Vajrahridaya Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
