You can't do anything!

[ralis]

When someone grants you something? Being human grants you the ability? This is all English dude.

 

My English is fine.

 

Your grammar in that context makes no sense. You placed a comma after human grant.

 

ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

Your grammar in that context makes no sense. You placed a comma after human grant.

 

ralis

 

That was my own creative input in order to show a list of what is granted. Boy are you hampered by convention. It's quite obvious to any person who has a decent grasp of English.

[rookie]

When things like this are discussed face to face it is hard enough. If it breaks down into an intellectual exercise it is meaningless. Either it is experienced, and then it makes sense, or it will not make sense at all to the mind.

 

There seem to be many trap doors or worm holes that can take one there, alas if only for a while before the conditioned response-reaction takes over again.

 

Here is one for you.

You don't do anything, ever.

But things are done.

It is just this little tyrant you have created in your pre-frontal cortex that decides to claim the action after the fact and actually believes in its own existance.

 

The problem with discussing this here is that either you already get it and then this can just be poetry or you do not and it will sound like nilist bullshit or non-dual psychobable.

 

In one sense it is very brave to post about this.

In another, it is foolish.

[Mark Foote]

When things like this are discussed face to face it is hard enough. If it breaks down into an intellectual exercise it is meaningless. Either it is experienced, and then it makes sense, or it will not make sense at all to the mind.

 

There seem to be many trap doors or worm holes that can take one there, alas if only for a while before the conditioned response-reaction takes over again.

 

Here is one for you.

You don't do anything, ever.

But things are done.

It is just this little tyrant you have created in your pre-frontal cortex that decides to claim the action after the fact and actually believes in its own existance.

 

The problem with discussing this here is that either you already get it and then this can just be poetry or you do not and it will sound like nilist bullshit or non-dual psychobable.

 

In one sense it is very brave to post about this.

In another, it is foolish.

 

ok, I agree that the trance states are not subject to measure, and the purpose of trance or of practice is still a subject of debate here and elsewhere. The Gautamid said something like, "for whatever you think it is, it is otherwise", talking about the trance states.

 

I agree that there is something about the teaching, or the teachings, that we have from the East that has to be experienced to be believed, and that would be action without conscious volition. Since action without conscious volition depends to some extent on what we believe, there's a catch 22: can't believe it until we experience it, can't experience it until we believe it. In the end, I think we break into a place where we have always been sleeping, and experience ourselves sleeping awake. This happens because we have discovered the need, in our very breath.

 

I'm going on the theory that there are a lot of people who practice very hard and can let go completely if they witness the action that already occurs without volition, action that is initiated by the fascial tissues as consciousness takes place, action as simple as sitting on a cushion.

 

Remains to be seen, whether I can take my own advice, but I think it helps me to talk it out. Thanks.

[rookie]

ok, I agree that the trance states are not subject to measure, and the purpose of trance or of practice is still a subject of debate here and elsewhere. The Gautamid said something like, "for whatever you think it is, it is otherwise", talking about the trance states.

 

I agree that there is something about the teaching, or the teachings, that we have from the East that has to be experienced to be believed, and that would be action without conscious volition. Since action without conscious volition depends to some extent on what we believe, there's a catch 22: can't believe it until we experience it, can't experience it until we believe it. In the end, I think we break into a place where we have always been sleeping, and experience ourselves sleeping awake. This happens because we have discovered the need, in our very breath.

 

I'm going on the theory that there are a lot of people who practice very hard and can let go completely if they witness the action that already occurs without volition, action that is initiated by the fascial tissues as consciousness takes place, action as simple as sitting on a cushion.

 

Remains to be seen, whether I can take my own advice, but I think it helps me to talk it out. Thanks.

 

 

Yes it sometimes helps me to talk it out as well.

There is a kind of thinking, if I can call it that, or maybe it is perception without thinking, that brings a movement into a different space.....a different kind of perception, away from or out of the normal belief system that the "me" operates from.

It is from this space that various aspects of this can be seen.

 

Another thing I have seen time and again is that trying or practicing too hard can become a act of the "personal will", where the self-fabricated "me" is trying to have control, which from this other perspective is seen not to exist.

 

In terms of using the rational mind in normal thinking, questioning the beliefs, and contemplation, it has been useful to use it to collect and consider pieces of evidence that do not fit the normally assumed paradigm. These are usually ignored because the do not fit. But look for those. Look on the fringes of perception. Look at evidence that goes againt "common knowledge".

 

A lot of this is comong out of the normal scientific community lately.

Devise your own experiments to challenge your beliefs in particular area.

 

It seems that breaking down the tightly held beliefs, about the self in particular, help make one "suseptible to grace".

 

Cultivate the feeling of "wierdness" or "strangeness" ......that is often accompanied by percieving something that doesn't fit the "common knowledge paradigm" you have been living with.

 

These are like naturally occuring koans....maybe LOL

Edited May 22, 2010 by rookie

[Birch]

Nice Mark, thanks!

 

I was considering this and so I was considering that what is often taken to be oneself yes, doesn't do anything, yet it sees/feels/whatever is done and mistakes (as in "takes" when it shouldn't) ownership (or rejection) of whatever the done thing is.

 

But what is done is still done by oneself, just perhaps not seen/felt/whatever by the part of oneself that one takes for being oneself. Sound weird? Well, I'm thinking not so much. Ever been so drunk/stoned/in love/high/sorrowful/enraged that you did something "out of character" or something you could later not recall? Was it still "you"? Remember "Fight Club"?

[rookie]

Nice Mark, thanks!

 

I was considering this and so I was considering that what is often taken to be oneself yes, doesn't do anything, yet it sees/feels/whatever is done and mistakes (as in "takes" when it shouldn't) ownership (or rejection) of whatever the done thing is.

 

But what is done is still done by oneself, just perhaps not seen/felt/whatever by the part of oneself that one takes for being oneself. Sound weird? Well, I'm thinking not so much. Ever been so drunk/stoned/in love/high/sorrowful/enraged that you did something "out of character" or something you could later not recall? Was it still "you"? Remember "Fight Club"?

 

ok good example

 

who or what did it? can there be certainty that because the body was involved that is was "you"

or could this be another example of some function of the mund/brain claiming responsibility?

how can one be sure?

 

 

so the body can be involved in doing although the you that you normally consider to be you but really can't be truely you because the you are not concious of it LOL

 

that was too fun! LOL

 

I am not going to be serious about this right now....

[Birch]

"who or what did it?" - good question ;-)

 

- can there be certainty that because the body was involved that is was "you" - no, but I tend to take responsability for what she does;-)

 

or could this be another example of some function of the mund/brain claiming responsibility? - yup

 

how can one be sure? - c.f. Fight Club ;-) Although I think it's just easier to say that "yes, it's all me, even the weirdo body thing"

 

 

so the body can be involved in doing although the you that you normally consider to be you but really can't be truely you because the you are not concious of it LOL - well, again we're always on about this "me" and this "consciousnesses" stuff. If a consciouness is required for there to be a sense of "me" (which apparently boils down to the actual "me" that we spend time debating on TTB's then it would seem to be pretty reductionist IMO

 

that was too fun! LOL - yeh, bringing the body back (would that be a resurrection;-)) to such discussions which IMO tend to get very "disembodied" seems like something fun. I asked my femur if she agreed and so here we are

 

I am not going to be serious about this right now.... - I would hope not, if any of this stuff has a goal, it's happiness, right?

[3bob]

The more unified a person the more that person does... and one completely unified completely does for the winds and currents (so to speak) of various permutated forces can no longer drive them about.

 

Inner unification coincides with indomitable will, indomitable will has the strength to surrender itself and join the un-named Tao conciously.

 

Om

Edited May 24, 2010 by 3bob

[rookie]

So the question here is can you do anything?

But the presumption is there is a you, so that must first be determined for the first question to be answered meaningfully.

Now we can have fun, play around, and enjoy the interaction, all good

Experiments are very good, especially if they are experiential and not just a thought experiment.

These can be quite fun and surprising as well disturbing at times.

 

But this is the most fundamental and important question there is.

So it does deserve serious consideration.

 

It is taken seriously here. It is found that to distinguish illusion, creations of the mind, from that that is always there regardless of the creations of the mind, is a process of reduction.

 

Retreat from untruth-- Richard Rose

Find out what you are not and discard that--- Nisargadatta

 

This finding contradictions is really the best use of logic, and about its only good use in search for ultimate truth. This is another topic of serious inquiry if one is so inclined.

 

There is willingness here to enter into conversations with others who are also serious in their inquiry.

 

I am going to point out a common trap.

One cannot agree their way to the truth. It must be discovered experientially. Only then is it known. Because someone else says something and it sounds true, or sounds good, or it is the prevailing belief within a particular group, that does nothing for you if you are not making the discovery within. What ones realized truth is needs to stand up to scrutiny.

 

So I reply to Kate here, no, the goal here is not happiness, but realization of the truth. Sometimes that makes the "you" or "sense of self" unhappy. Especially when it starts to see that it is, well, a fiction. But this can be looked into as well.

 

 

This is all I have energy for at this late hour, but I would be pleased to continue a serious inquiry with anyone so inclined.

[Cueball]

Yes it sometimes helps me to talk it out as well.

There is a kind of thinking, if I can call it that, or maybe it is perception without thinking, that brings a movement into a different space.....a different kind of perception, away from or out of the normal belief system that the "me" operates from.

It is from this space that various aspects of this can be seen.

 

Another thing I have seen time and again is that trying or practicing too hard can become a act of the "personal will", where the self-fabricated "me" is trying to have control, which from this other perspective is seen not to exist.

 

In terms of using the rational mind in normal thinking, questioning the beliefs, and contemplation, it has been useful to use it to collect and consider pieces of evidence that do not fit the normally assumed paradigm. These are usually ignored because the do not fit. But look for those. Look on the fringes of perception. Look at evidence that goes againt "common knowledge".

 

A lot of this is comong out of the normal scientific community lately.

Devise your own experiments to challenge your beliefs in particular area.

 

It seems that breaking down the tightly held beliefs, about the self in particular, help make one "suseptible to grace".

 

Cultivate the feeling of "wierdness" or "strangeness" ......that is often accompanied by percieving something that doesn't fit the "common knowledge paradigm" you have been living with.

 

These are like naturally occuring koans....maybe LOL

 

That's how I tend to see it too. Thanks for the post.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

So I reply to Kate here, no, the goal here is not happiness, but realization of the truth. Sometimes that makes the "you" or "sense of self" unhappy. Especially when it starts to see that it is, well, a fiction. But this can be looked into as well.

"Realization of the truth", begins without any sense of its outcome, without and preference for the result.. and, if the seeker is sincere, 'truth' will never be revealed.. the simple caution of unhappiness because the self might be a 'fiction',is the subtle prejudicing of the seekers authenticity..

 

As i have maintained since visiting this forum, suspend the beliefs, thoughts, preferences and prejudices.. still the mind, and let Clarity reveal 'What IS'.. then, you will be able to shape it into 'your' understanding from Clarity.. not from someon else's interpretations, or dogma, or programming.. at least have the Authentic experiences to shape your understandings..

 

Be well..

[rookie]

Greetings..

 

 

"Realization of the truth", begins without any sense of its outcome, without and preference for the result.. and, if the seeker is sincere, 'truth' will never be revealed.. the simple caution of unhappiness because the self might be a 'fiction',is the subtle prejudicing of the seekers authenticity..

 

As i have maintained since visiting this forum, suspend the beliefs, thoughts, preferences and prejudices.. still the mind, and let Clarity reveal 'What IS'.. then, you will be able to shape it into 'your' understanding from Clarity.. not from someon else's interpretations, or dogma, or programming.. at least have the Authentic experiences to shape your understandings..

 

Be well..

 

Thank you

That is a very good point to bring up.

 

The kind of "unhappiness" that I point to is such a common and natural event, and it seems a recurring event, that I don't think it prejudices anyone if I mention it from my own experience.

If you really believe that would hinder one with prejudice then you would have to live in complete isolation to never be exposed to anyone elses ideas to keep from being "prejudiced".

Instead, looking into anything and everything is the way to do it. Your own nervous system has prejudiced you in ways you may never uncover just to be able to survive and interact in this world. But maybe you will

 

What you are suggesting is a necessary practice and really the one that is most widely known, but only half the story as seen from here. The other side is the dismantling of the conditioned beliefs, prejudices, unconcious assumptions and motivations, and so on. These are the things that will continue to get in the way of the direct experience you point to. It is like pulling the weeds fron the garden, going all the way down to get the whole root, otherwise the weed returns a few days later.

 

The inquiry part does require effort.

This can be a problem from here because sometimes it becomes a project, and the egoic self image can grab it and try to claim responsibility of progress for itself LOL

It does seem to be the best use of the mind though, using the mind to find its own limitations and illusions. As wierd as this may sound it really can work out that way.

 

Also, one may be able to "suspend ones prejudices and beliefs" as you suggest, and this may allow for direct clear seeing of "What IS" as you describe. But without inquiry, without the looking into what is arising within oneself again, then these weeds will probably never go away or even slow down.

 

SO I agree with you sir, but I think it is half the story.

And from what is seen here, this inquiry is usually not done enough.

 

Thanks for your comment

 

An after thought.....there may be some very advanced ones, or very pure ones who have never had to do any of this "weeding" of their conditioning to be able to realize the truth continuously and effortlessly, but I do not know any, and I'm not even sure if I have know any stories of such.

[rookie]

The results of this inquiry can be very freeing and happy at times, yet very stark at other times. It depends mostly on the perspective one is operating from at the time

[Lucky7Strikes]

Greetings..

 

 

"Realization of the truth", begins without any sense of its outcome, without and preference for the result.. and, if the seeker is sincere, 'truth' will never be revealed.. the simple caution of unhappiness because the self might be a 'fiction',is the subtle prejudicing of the seekers authenticity..

 

As i have maintained since visiting this forum, suspend the beliefs, thoughts, preferences and prejudices.. still the mind, and let Clarity reveal 'What IS'.. then, you will be able to shape it into 'your' understanding from Clarity.. not from someon else's interpretations, or dogma, or programming.. at least have the Authentic experiences to shape your understandings..

 

Be well..

Understandings and experiences feed off one another. They are not so distinct as you might imagine.

 

There is no unhappiness because the self might be a fiction. It might be that it is difficult to accept (as I did the past two years) because of the story of individuality we have built for ourselves. The glory of effort, personal struggle, its triumph, its achievements, its failures, are some of the many attachments that hinder a true evaluation into the no-self teachings. But this is very much dependent on individual histories.

 

The inquiry in to the truth of experience must be for the sake of that truth alone, not for happiness or unhappiness, not for whether you might like it or not, but because there is a deep seated desire to know precisely what all this is. Yes the experience of clarity is important , the experience of bliss is important, the experience of anger is important, the experience of anything really is important because they are all function of reality of which we are a part of.

 

But to know oneself is not to experience but to gain insight into the underlying law of all these existences. Only that which abides in this truth can be eternal because all experiences that come about from meditation and practice are essentially conditioned: they've been brought about through a cause, which is practice, and hence will inevitably also fall away.

 

The mind still or in movement, the abiding in truth is consistent. It is what makes it the truth, that precisely whatever you do, where ever you are, you are and have always abided in it. One must simply recognize it through deep inquiry.

Edited May 26, 2010 by Lucky7Strikes

[C T]

Understandings and experiences feed off one another. They are not so distinct as you might imagine.

 

There is no unhappiness because the self might be a fiction. It might be that it is difficult to accept (as I did the past two years) because of the story of individuality we have built for ourselves. The glory of effort, personal struggle, its triumph, its achievements, its failures, are some of the many attachments that hinder a true evaluation into the no-self teachings. But this is very much dependent on individual histories.

 

The inquiry in to the truth of experience must be for the sake of that truth alone, not for happiness or unhappiness, not for whether you might like it or not, but because there is a deep seated desire to know precisely what all this is. Yes the experience of clarity is important , the experience of bliss is important, the experience of anger is important, the experience of anything really is important because they are all function of reality of which we are a part of.

 

But to know oneself is not to experience but to gain insight into the underlying law of all these existences. Only that which abides in this truth can be eternal because all experiences that come about from meditation and practice are essentially conditioned: they've been brought about through a cause, which is practice, and hence will inevitably also fall away.

 

The mind still or in movement, the abiding in truth is consistent. It is what makes it the truth, that precisely whatever you do, where ever you are, you are and have always abided in it. One must simply recognize it through deep inquiry.

So well put.

 

Practice sometimes tear down walls, yet at other times build new ones, only to require more effort to remain in the cycle. Its good to see practice for its limited function. If the spirals of the cycle get smaller and smaller, there is progress, leading to insights. If not, then its no more than being a puppet caught in a whirlpool of self-delusion, masked as stillness and clarity.

 

Abiding in transcendent insight, the clamor to construct meanings and build assumptions so that these same can be dissected, hanging on to the good ones and discarding the bad ones, hence giving forth a false sense of wisdom, can be forever put aside, and then what's left? Not clarity, not truth, not bliss, in fact, not anything the mind can conjure up - as these are yet held within the bounds of physical and psychical memories.

 

I guess, at such a point, the idea of walls, be it existing within or without, becomes absolutely meaningless.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Thanks for reading my post, Lucky7Strikes; I can hardly make sense of it rereading it. Have to make more of an effort to talk to myself, I guess, 'cause it seems I get confused when I think I'm talking to anyone else.

 

My own thought this morning was that my understanding must change like everything else, and I am well-served by Tao Bums so long as I aim to say the thing fresh, as it were.

 

I'm not happy until the weight of my body is in it. The weight of my body is not in it unless it's a necessity of breath. Where's the joy in that, you might ask, and I am so lucky to have made the acquaintance of apepch7 with those beautiful symbols of ancient Egypt when I ask myself that: I'm convinced it's the Ankh entering the breath. Here's the illustration:

 

 

How does the occurrence of consciousness, sans intent, generate the activity of the current posture? Bouncing off the stretch in existence at the moment, the occurrence of consciousness leads the balance to shift the weight of the body into the stretch. That stretch depends on the cranial-sacral rhythm, and in particular on the way the movement at the sacrum stretches fascia and ligaments. I have an animation, here:

 

The Bridge is Flowing

 

Nothing to be done, but the occurrence of consciousness has impact, and the impact causes activity that opens feeling. The witness of attachment, aversion, or ignorance with respect to feeling is spontaneous, too. In sum, awareness is action, even without intent. Nothing to be done, but awareness is action, even the simple awareness of the parts of the body in sitting.

Hi Mark, I can hardly make sense of what you wrote above either! But I think there might be an understanding.

 

My personal take on posture meditations such as zazen, zhan zhunag and such is the movement of consciousness energy from what we perceive to be external to internal. The body is a product of mental attachment and can itself be seen as a blockage, but we are too busy living in the illusionary experience between the internal and external, night and day, me and other. Therefore stillness meditation should be done with non-dual insight to break down these walls, and finally of the notion of a physical body itself, or else it just becomes sitting. The action of simply sitting (sorry Drew, but I don't think sitting in full lotus bring you to complete liberation) does not correlate with wisdom or enlightenment, or else people who can sit the longest would probably be enlightened beings.

 

Once one begins to investigate into every phenomena as empty and dependent, destroying all concepts and notions of a reference point or a valid perspective, it is impossible to describe precisely because describing is conceptualizing it, and conceptualizing it is giving it boundaries to that which is boundless, like seeing flowers in the sky. I can't even call this an experience, it's more like an end to experience. I don't know, I'm still at a very raw stage. (CowTao explained it better above I think. .) But this now reminds me of a phrase I read when a student asked his master, "why has suffering come about?" and the master replied "it has never come about." Kind of like Papaji's thing about Nothing Ever Happened.

 

When we say occurrence of consciousness has impact, but as you pointed out, awareness, consciousness itself IS action. And I had a hard time understanding this, that consciousness is not a noun, it is not a thing, but a property of existence, like space and form. Existence had the property of being consciousness, just as it might have form or not have form. The word BEING is very precise in this sense. There is no witness, and never was, as there is also no objective world apart from our consciousness.

Edited May 26, 2010 by Lucky7Strikes

[Mark Foote]

But this now reminds me of a phrase I read when a student asked his master, "why has suffering come about?" and the master replied "it has never come about." Kind of like Papaji's thing about Nothing Ever Happened.

 

When we say occurrence of consciousness has impact, but as you pointed out, awareness, consciousness itself IS action. And I had a hard time understanding this, that consciousness is not a noun, it is not a thing, but a property of existence, like space and form. Existence had the property of being consciousness, just as it might have form or not have form. The word BEING is very precise in this sense. There is no witness, and never was, as there is also no objective world apart from our consciousness.

 

Hi, Lucky7Strikes, can you expand on the "it has never come about"- I guess in a certain sense cause and effect are irrelevant to being, perhaps that's the meaning?

 

Consciousness has impact, I would say the place of occurrence of consciousness has impact on the fascial stretch in existence at the moment, and the activity out of stretch can open feeling. If I can stay with the sensations that arise with stretch just long enough, the ability to feel is like a magnet that will bring the sequence of awarenesses back when I relax and calm down. Practice is just well-being, and the only place is the location I feel. Does the location in mind sit when I sit, I ask myself, or what is this I feel? You know how it goes!

[Lucky7Strikes]

Hi, Lucky7Strikes, can you expand on the "it has never come about"- I guess in a certain sense cause and effect are irrelevant to being, perhaps that's the meaning?

It means that the duality of Samsara is like a mirage in that it was never true. There was no such thing as suffering or liberation from suffering. All things already reside in Nirvana.

 

Consciousness has impact, I would say the place of occurrence of consciousness has impact on the fascial stretch in existence at the moment, and the activity out of stretch can open feeling. If I can stay with the sensations that arise with stretch just long enough, the ability to feel is like a magnet that will bring the sequence of awarenesses back when I relax and calm down. Practice is just well-being, and the only place is the location I feel. Does the location in mind sit when I sit, I ask myself, or what is this I feel? You know how it goes!

It's not that consciousness has impact. There are just various modes of consciousness.

 

I think what you are referring to is the movement of consciousness energy during meditation employed in internal exercises like the MCO, focusing on the Dan Tien, Tummo, and things of that sort. But again, it's not that consciousness is interacting with the object that is those locations producing an impact, it is simply the transition of phenomena-awareness from one conditioned moment to another because that moment is likewise dependently risen. Time and space only happen in context.

 

"Does the location in mind sit when I sit"....Haha! I can't possibly wrap my mind around that phrase!

Edited May 28, 2010 by Lucky7Strikes

[Mark Foote]

 

"Does the location in mind sit when I sit"....Haha! I can't possibly wrap my mind around that phrase!

 

 

I went up to Sonoma Mountain Zen Center today, and the lecturer reminded the audience of advice from "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" about placing the mind in the left hand of the mudra.

 

Chris the lecturer also spoke about Zhengjue's "The Lancet of Seated Meditation", which Chris said could also be translated as "The Acupuncture Needle of Seated Meditation". Chris talked about the last lines:

 

The water is clear right through to the bottom;

A fish goes lazily along.

The sky is vast without horizon;

A bird flies far far away.

 

Chris mentioned that the acupuncture needle was a reference to mind, maybe because the title is "zazenshin". I don't know if his translation information is correct, but I like to think that makes the poem title "The acupuncture mind of seated meditation". This would be what I'm talking about, the cranial-sacral respiration and the pulmonary respiration use the place of occurrence of consciousness to effect stretch and open feeling, in a kind of healing acupuncture by mind.

 

Here's the whole poem, from the Stanford project (zazenshin):

 

 

LANCET OF SEATED MEDITATION

by Zhengjue

by imperial designation the Chan Master Spacious Wisdom

 

Essential function of buddha after buddha,

Functioning essence of ancestor after ancestor --

It knows without touching things;

It illumines without facing objects.

Knowing without touching things,

Its knowing is inherently subtle;

Illumining without facing objects,

Its illumining is inherently mysterious.

Its knowing inherently subtle,

It is ever without discriminatory thought;

Its illumining inherently mysterious,

It is ever without a hair's breadth of sign.

Ever without discriminatory thought,

Its knowing is rare without peer;

Ever without a hair's breadth of sign,

Its illumining comprehends without grasping.

The water is clear right through to the bottom;

A fish goes lazily along.

The sky is vast without horizon;

A bird flies far far away.

 

Nice poem, and the curious part of it is that Zhengjue is talking about two things through the whole poem, yet the title is about the mind/healing needle of zazen.

Edited May 30, 2010 by Mark Foote