You can't do anything!

[Lucky7Strikes]

So with all the struggle and lengthy posts I've written on the supposed "free will" of individuals, and the mental theories I've made to defend it, I return to where I was years before:

 

That there is no free will. We can't do anything. Because there is no "we." Everything happens on its own. There is nothing to do. The Buddha is as on an equal plain as a mad dog, the sage might as well be another carbon life form like Hitler. There is no direction, no creator. Only the created, purposeless, meaningless, and all headed no where.

 

All our realizations and efforts are simply a part of this existence. We can ONLY be true to it. My own understanding of all this is also simply another realization. Just another part of all that is happening. It isn't particular, it doesn't belong to "me," it's just another part of all THIS (individual mindstream or not, who cares?)

 

There is no enlightenment. If there was, it's just another thing that happens. Nothing escapes existence.

 

So what can I say?

[Aetherous]

Getting lost in thought and belief isn't worth much.

[3bob]

the darkness you see is twisted light

untwist

[Sloppy Zhang]

In a philosophy class we read "Existentialism is a Humanism" by Jean-Paul Sartre. Existentialism says a lot of the same things, but the way Sartre described it was really optimistic and beautiful:

 

There is no inherent direction, no real definition, no intrinsic quality that separates someone like, say, the Buddha, from someone like Hitler, or a mad dog on the side of the road. The thing that makes them different is US.

 

If we don't like something, we can change if. If we don't, we don't.

 

I suggest everyone give it a read. I was not really for existentialism until I read it, and it helped me see lucky7's post from a different angle- as in, just because it could initially sound depressing and locked in pure thought, it doesn't have to be.

 

Then again, maybe I missed the point, sorry lucky if that was the case!

[thelerner]

The Buddha is as on an equal plain as a mad dog. There is no direction, no creator. Only the created, purposeless, meaningless, and all headed no where.

 

So what can I say?

 

 

I say- I'd rather hang out with Buddha then a mad dog- and its the people I choose to hang out with, that make life worthwhile.

 

 

 

There is something amazing about this post. Right now it shows 4 replies and no views!?? Existential indeed

[sifusufi]

This Album (remember vinyl) never fails to prime my fountain of youth as well as activate my erector pili manifold! (chills on top of chills)
Neil Peart is so gifted in putting it all down

Chillin as we speak,
Robert

[hyok]

Nothing matters!

 

Everything matters!

 

Nothing matters!

 

Everything matters!

[That Guy]

woof woof

[Iyoiyo]

It sure is confusing, but I often think the same thing.

[ralis]

So with all the struggle and lengthy posts I've written on the supposed "free will" of individuals, and the mental theories I've made to defend it, I return to where I was years before:

 

That there is no free will. We can't do anything. Because there is no "we." Everything happens on its own. There is nothing to do. The Buddha is as on an equal plain as a mad dog, the sage might as well be another carbon life form like Hitler. There is no direction, no creator. Only the created, purposeless, meaningless, and all headed no where.

 

All our realizations and efforts are simply a part of this existence. We can ONLY be true to it. My own understanding of all this is also simply another realization. Just another part of all that is happening. It isn't particular, it doesn't belong to "me," it's just another part of all THIS (individual mindstream or not, who cares?)

 

There is no enlightenment. If there was, it's just another thing that happens. Nothing escapes existence.

 

So what can I say?

 

 

A nihilistic rant at best, while positing untenable arguments. Your attempts at logic are a joke!

 

 

ralis

[RyanO]

 

This Album (remember vinyl) never fails to prime my fountain of youth as well as activate my erector pili manifold! (chills on top of chills)

Neil Peart is so gifted in putting it all down

 

Chillin as we speak,

Robert

 

Rush rules!

[Lucky7Strikes]

A nihilistic rant at best, while positing untenable arguments. Your attempts at logic are a joke!

 

 

ralis

Ralis, if you are willing, I would like to actually have a discussion with you in regards to the difference between your belief of existence and mine. Let's us try to not insult each other but arrive at a reasonable conclusion.

 

If you don't wish to do so, I would like to let people who read you comments and what not know that you are unwilling to do so. What is there to fear?

 

And as a start, I want to ask you what exactly you believe makes up a person's identity: Who is Ralis?

Edited May 11, 2010 by Lucky7Strikes

[Lucky7Strikes]

I say- I'd rather hang out with Buddha then a mad dog- and its the people I choose to hang out with, that make life worthwhile.

Well, I'm sure to a tick, the dog would be a better companion.

[Vajrahridaya]

So with all the struggle and lengthy posts I've written on the supposed "free will" of individuals, and the mental theories I've made to defend it, I return to where I was years before:

 

That there is no free will. We can't do anything. Because there is no "we." Everything happens on its own. There is nothing to do. The Buddha is as on an equal plain as a mad dog, the sage might as well be another carbon life form like Hitler. There is no direction, no creator. Only the created, purposeless, meaningless, and all headed no where.

 

All our realizations and efforts are simply a part of this existence. We can ONLY be true to it. My own understanding of all this is also simply another realization. Just another part of all that is happening. It isn't particular, it doesn't belong to "me," it's just another part of all THIS (individual mindstream or not, who cares?)

 

There is no enlightenment. If there was, it's just another thing that happens. Nothing escapes existence.

 

So what can I say?

 

 

Understand emptiness/dependent origination deeper on a level that transcends a beginning. You'll see that the only way you attain liberation is the fact that others before you attain it by experiencing closer and closer to the integration of their own phenomenal world and the realization of emptiness/dependent origination... So... each one teaches one, or influences the other add infinitum. So yes... there is only pre-determination for most beings until they come closer to the understanding and thus experience of emptiness by being influenced. Through this kind of osmosis from compassionate beings one eventually frees the will beyond conditions through the influence of Buddhas. Only Buddha influenced realms have Buddhas unless there are Pratyekabuddhas that manifest in those realms due to individual merit but without the tools to properly preach the dharma. No one is influenced properly by these beings.

 

Anyway... only a Buddha truly has free will. The rest of us are either emptying our ping pong paddles through integrating the Buddha influence or we are just bouncing balls between the two hard places of our karmic paradox.

Edited May 11, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[hagar]

So with all the struggle and lengthy posts I've written on the supposed "free will" of individuals, and the mental theories I've made to defend it, I return to where I was years before:

 

That there is no free will. We can't do anything. Because there is no "we." Everything happens on its own. There is nothing to do. The Buddha is as on an equal plain as a mad dog, the sage might as well be another carbon life form like Hitler. There is no direction, no creator. Only the created, purposeless, meaningless, and all headed no where.

 

All our realizations and efforts are simply a part of this existence. We can ONLY be true to it. My own understanding of all this is also simply another realization. Just another part of all that is happening. It isn't particular, it doesn't belong to "me," it's just another part of all THIS (individual mindstream or not, who cares?)

There is no enlightenment. If there was, it's just another thing that happens. Nothing escapes existence.

 

So what can I say?

 

 

Some Japanese Zen master said (never remember who) "My life has been one great mistake!"

 

In a sense, this is rabbit-hology 101, and in being that, I salute you for putting it out there. Btw remember that Sartre's existentialism embraces an extreme form of modernistic dualism, reconfirming the subject in a Kantian sense. So when Jean Paul sits at his cafe table in Paris, smoking his cigarette, thinking "hell is other people" he is not seeing other people as themselves.

 

I always picture Hitler as a little infant, sleeping in his mothers lap.

 

I feel that there ARE things that needs to be done. Like when a wasp sits on your arm; what do you do?

 

h

[Lucky7Strikes]

Understand emptiness/dependent origination deeper on a level that transcends a beginning. You'll see that the only way you attain liberation is the fact that others before you attain it by experiencing closer and closer to the integration of their own phenomenal world and the realization of emptiness/dependent origination... So... each one teaches one, or influences the other add infinitum. So yes... there is only pre-determination for most beings until they come closer to the understanding and thus experience of emptiness by being influenced. Through this kind of osmosis from compassionate beings one eventually frees the will beyond conditions through the influence of Buddhas. Only Buddha influenced realms have Buddhas unless there are Pratyekabuddhas that manifest in those realms due to individual merit but without the tools to properly preach the dharma. No one is influenced properly by these beings.

 

Anyway... only a Buddha truly has free will. The rest of us are either emptying our ping pong paddles through integrating the Buddha influence or we are just bouncing balls between the two hard places of our karmic paradox.

The terms "free will" itself is a oxymoron. The Buddha (if you want to use Buddhism here) no longer has a will and therefore he is free. If anything, the Buddha exists as the truth, or a unit in existence that becomes aware of its own condition and probably passes that down to other people. But thats all he/she is.

 

Something that is composed of all the parts of a cycle, cannot escape it. You can realize it, but it is still a part of it. The duality of Nirvana and Samasara are just as part of each other as my foot and hand.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Some Japanese Zen master said (never remember who) "My life has been one great mistake!"

 

In a sense, this is rabbit-hology 101, and in being that, I salute you for putting it out there. Btw remember that Sartre's existentialism embraces an extreme form of modernistic dualism, reconfirming the subject in a Kantian sense. So when Jean Paul sits at his cafe table in Paris, smoking his cigarette, thinking "hell is other people" he is not seeing other people as themselves.

 

I always picture Hitler as a little infant, sleeping in his mothers lap.

 

I feel that there ARE things that needs to be done. Like when a wasp sits on your arm; what do you do?

 

h

I'm not sure whether Sartre delve as deep into the notion of personal identity.

 

But yes, when the wasp sits on your arm, you will probably need to slap it away. It is a reactionary act, just as with...everything. One's will to do something is simply a continuation of habits, formed, altered, changed, by the whole entire interaction of "your" being within the world. It makes perfect sense within modern science too: everything is a reactionary movement of chemicals and signals. It is all happening on its own.

[That Guy]

You have the freedom to pursue happiness, just like you have the freedom to sit around and think up junk. It is all that matters, don't waste your time on "practices" or thoughts that don't do that for you.

 

Think of it like this, you don't own your life, but you have possession over it and can do a lot with that.

Life is like renting a car, you didn't have a car before you rented it, and sometime in the future you will have to return it. BUT between the renting and the returning YOU my good sir drive that car in whatever direction you want. How far can you go? What kinda places will you see? who knows, but you gotta move to find out.

 

Immortals must skip town with their car and change license plates so they can joyride forever

ANd Buddha must say, well I'm gonna have to return it anyway so whats the point?

Jesus says You guys go do whatever you want, my insurance will cover you

Muhammad warns you of women drivers.

Krishna teaches you some funky looking driving tricks.

Edited May 11, 2010 by That Guy

[goldisheavy]

That there is no free will. We can't do anything. Because there is no "we." Everything happens on its own.

 

For everything to happen on its own, it needs to stand apart from something. But since it's "everything," there is a logical contradiction. Either not everything is on its own, of if it's really everything then saying "is on its own" is nonsensical. "On its own" means some kind of independence from something.

 

So for example, I might say, "The clock keeps time on its own." The implication is that I can just stand there and do nothing, and the clock runs without me. So "on its own" mean it is independent of my conscious and directed involvement. So it makes sense to talk of things that do something on their own if there are other things that don't. For example, the socks don't get onto my feet on their own. I have to put them on myself. So because there are socks that don't get onto my feet on their own, it makes sense to say that the clock keeps time on its own, in contradistinction with my socks.

 

So you see how when you start talking about everything, "on its own" is no longer an applicable phrase.

[Lucky7Strikes]

You have the freedom to pursue happiness, just like you have the freedom to sit around and think up junk. It is all that matters, don't waste your time on "practices" or thoughts that don't do that for you.

 

Think of it like this, you don't own your life, but you have possession over it and can do a lot with that.

Life is like renting a car, you didn't have a car before you rented it, and sometime in the future you will have to return it. BUT between the renting and the returning YOU my good sir drive that car in whatever direction you want. How far can you go? What kinda places will you see? who knows, but you gotta move to find out.

 

Immortals must skip town with their car and change license plates so they can joyride forever

ANd Buddha must say, well I'm gonna have to return it anyway so whats the point?

Jesus says You guys go do whatever you want, my insurance will cover you

Muhammad warns you of women drivers.

Krishna teaches you some funky looking driving tricks.

When you say you, you you. My question is what is this you that chooses. You won't find anyone there, because "you" is simply what is arising at this moment, whether that is your thoughts, whether it is dual perception, whether it is non-dual perception, whether it is driving....whatever.

 

You are this. And "this" does not choose in the traditional sense of there being an individual who will act among certain choices. It just is. All a one flow.

[hagar]

When you say you, you you. My question is what is this you that chooses. You won't find anyone there, because "you" is simply what is arising at this moment, whether that is your thoughts, whether it is dual perception, whether it is non-dual perception, whether it is driving....whatever.

 

You are this. And "this" does not choose in the traditional sense of there being an individual who will act among certain choices. It just is. All a one flow.

 

Its really cheesy to write about this, but truth has an element of paradox to it.

 

In one sense, we are all conditioned. Like you say. On the other hand, we are completely unconditoned. But this will rapidly degenerate to a mental thing.

 

I've come to enjoy being an ego, embracing my ego-ness these days, it releases so much vitality, energy. Just affirming the part of me that is ego. Its actually wonderful, in the sense you felt when you broke the rules and stayed up late when you were a child. But it was really an epiphany. How much energy I've spent unconciously denying my ego. Or trying to embrace whatever I that was not ego, defining the ego as unwanted, since it was not ultimately "real". You probably all see how silly this is.

 

Now I'm getting to know my ego, and I like it.

And although this was a digression, my point is that there are not just conditions arising, and no inherent will. Instead, the will is what infuses everything. The great pressure of evolution, in a way ,is this will.

Its what infuses us with choice, with intention.

 

wow. that sounded metaphysical...

 

h

[RyanO]

Its really cheesy to write about this, but truth has an element of paradox to it.

 

In one sense, we are all conditioned. Like you say. On the other hand, we are completely unconditoned. But this will rapidly degenerate to a mental thing.

 

I've come to enjoy being an ego, embracing my ego-ness these days, it releases so much vitality, energy. Just affirming the part of me that is ego. Its actually wonderful, in the sense you felt when you broke the rules and stayed up late when you were a child. But it was really an epiphany. How much energy I've spent unconciously denying my ego. Or trying to embrace whatever I that was not ego, defining the ego as unwanted, since it was not ultimately "real". You probably all see how silly this is.

 

Now I'm getting to know my ego, and I like it.

And although this was a digression, my point is that there are not just conditions arising, and no inherent will. Instead, the will is what infuses everything. The great pressure of evolution, in a way ,is this will.

Its what infuses us with choice, with intention.

 

wow. that sounded metaphysical...

 

h

 

I love this perspective. I really don't like all the ego-bashing so common to many forms of spirituality: "The ego will fight like hell to stay alive, the ego is an imposter, the ego is the source of all pain" nonsense.

 

A big smile to my and everyone else's ego.

[Cloudhand]

Its really cheesy to write about this, but truth has an element of paradox to it.

 

In one sense, we are all conditioned. Like you say. On the other hand, we are completely unconditoned. But this will rapidly degenerate to a mental thing.

 

I've come to enjoy being an ego, embracing my ego-ness these days, it releases so much vitality, energy. Just affirming the part of me that is ego. Its actually wonderful, in the sense you felt when you broke the rules and stayed up late when you were a child. But it was really an epiphany. How much energy I've spent unconciously denying my ego. Or trying to embrace whatever I that was not ego, defining the ego as unwanted, since it was not ultimately "real". You probably all see how silly this is.

 

Now I'm getting to know my ego, and I like it.

And although this was a digression, my point is that there are not just conditions arising, and no inherent will. Instead, the will is what infuses everything. The great pressure of evolution, in a way ,is this will.

Its what infuses us with choice, with intention.

 

wow. that sounded metaphysical...

 

h

 

Brother like I say you should always be able to remember your zipcode and dont let the ego get in the way. Cloudhand

[Lucky7Strikes]

For everything to happen on its own, it needs to stand apart from something. But since it's "everything," there is a logical contradiction. Either not everything is on its own, of if it's really everything then saying "is on its own" is nonsensical. "On its own" means some kind of independence from something.

 

So for example, I might say, "The clock keeps time on its own." The implication is that I can just stand there and do nothing, and the clock runs without me. So "on its own" mean it is independent of my conscious and directed involvement. So it makes sense to talk of things that do something on their own if there are other things that don't. For example, the socks don't get onto my feet on their own. I have to put them on myself. So because there are socks that don't get onto my feet on their own, it makes sense to say that the clock keeps time on its own, in contradistinction with my socks.

 

So you see how when you start talking about everything, "on its own" is no longer an applicable phrase.

In that context you are right that the phrase "on its own" doesn't make sense. But I used that phrase to counter the thought of a controller behind actions. It is wrong to see a agent doing anything. There is just doing.

 

But I like your analogy because it addresses another issue, which is of dual perception. Experience often takes on a dual perspective. Time and space could not be cognized if it weren't experience dually as with a this, "I," and that, "you." Or this,"the present moment" and that, "the past and future." But with inquiry the dividing line between the duality is seen to be false, that duality happens in the non-dual conscious awareness.

[That Guy]

When you say you, you you. My question is what is this you that chooses. You won't find anyone there, because "you" is simply what is arising at this moment, whether that is your thoughts, whether it is dual perception, whether it is non-dual perception, whether it is driving....whatever.

 

You are this. And "this" does not choose in the traditional sense of there being an individual who will act among certain choices. It just is. All a one flow.

You are the you, however you came about you are here Do you make the same choices other people would? maybe some, but not all so there is a you and it is unique to you.

 

You're right in front of you and you can't see yourself. You just are, but you choose how you just are.

 

And I am "That" not "this" for the record