Life Doesn't Give a Damn, So Why The Hell Should We?

[Stigweard]

[dwai]

The opening paragraph of Daodejing Ch5 says:

 

天地不仁，

以萬物為芻狗﹔

聖人不仁，

以百姓為芻狗。

 

My translation of this is:

 

The universe is dispassionate,

It regards all things impartially.

The sage is also dispassionate,

He regards all people impartially.

 

[Note that I have chosen to use the more readily understood "impartial" over the traditional "straw dogs" analogy]

 

To say that Heaven and Earth (i.e. the universe) is dispassionate is pretty much the same as saying that life really doesn't give a shit and regards all life, whether beautiful or ugly, pleasurable or painful, spiritual or mundane, equally without hierarchical importance. It is only humans that place emotional or psychological value on people, things and events.

 

So this presents us with a several dilemmas.

 

If we follow Laozi's advice and not give a shit about people, things, or events:

 

• Where is our motivation in life?
• What is the essence of Taoist virtue?
• Why the hell should we strive for spiritual 'betterment' when 'better' is a subjective judgment call made by the limitations of human value-placing? In other words, why would we want to 'evolve' spiritually when Heaven and Earth regards our present evolution just as good as the one you are trying to evolve to?

I have been following the I Ching closely for a long while now, and it is always teaching me that the life path's I would normally consider 'good' are not necessarily so, and conversely the paths I would preferably avoid are not necessarily 'bad'. If I was to say the I Ching had any bias at all it would be towards 'wholeness'.

 

So perhaps 'wholeness' is the only bias Heaven and Earth have and thus 'wholeness' should also be our only 'ambition'. Perhaps ???

 

What say you???

 

 

Hi Stig,

 

Is Wu Wei about not giving a shit or about letting Tao do what it has to do and we just roll along, because Tao knows best? Good and Bad are relative terms and are necessarily dependent on each other (sheesh....these Buddha bums I tellya!)

 

Someone had once asked me if there is such as thing as "Pure Evil" (or Pure Bad) and Pure Good. I said there is no such thing because qualities and quantities are defined by our categorical frameworks (social fabric, ethics, morals, etc). But I think there are some values (virtues if you may) which transcend these frameworks...and we know it intuitively...so we must choose these values/options/choices when they appear. That will lead to Wu Wei...being guided by deep intuitive knowledge....towards that wholeness you mention...

 

Best,

 

Dwai

 

 

 

[RyanO]

Cool stuff. My immediate thoughts are:

 

Nature is cruel (and kind). Heaven based spiritualities (read: most of them) address this truth by teaching that we must transcend Nature and its cruelties. I would say a better balance would be finding harmony between our Heavenly and Earthly aspects.

 

People think Reality sucks because we want things we can't have. But Reality created us this way. Our Nature is to seek pleasure and blissful states. Happiness arises when we accept this as our Nature without demand.

 

The Tao created us with Will so that we can play with it and take part in its process. Evolution is merely a part of this process of play and not an imperative with regard to the Real. True Wholeness is Omnipresent, but creation requires the mystery of polarity.

[mYTHmAKER]

.

Edited May 12, 2010 by mYTHmAKER

[Martial Development]

Maybe we should read Daodejing in relation to the dominant philosophies of its time, before deciding it is about "not giving a shit" in modern terms?

 

(The concept of "timeless, placeless truth" is itself culturally bound, as explained in the book "A Return To Reason"--thanks to Drew for mentioning it.)

 

P.S. Pondering or following the advice of a thousand-year-old text, and not giving a shit, would appear to be mutually exclusive. And it looks as if you are already embarked.

Edited May 12, 2010 by Martial Development

[Tao99]

Edited July 10, 2010 by Tao99

[Lucky7Strikes]

[3bob]

Life - as in capital 'L' is not forms per-se. Life is ultimately free. In the end forms never really are, even advanced forms. Thus we have Life unto Life or Tao unto Tao to be and know ourselves as that, instead of any form that we may think we are or that we mistakenly feel doesn't care.

 

T.T.C. Chapter 21 is about sincerity, even though chapter 5 may not sound so to us... maybe it means the processes in time wait for no man or form?

Edited May 12, 2010 by 3bob

[Stigweard]

[Tao99]

Edited July 9, 2010 by Tao99

[Stigweard]

[Martial Development]

Begging your pardon sir, but straw dogs have a deliberate beginning and a deliberate end--and if nobody gave a shit, then they would have neither!!

[Stigweard]

Begging your pardon sir, but straw dogs have a deliberate beginning and a deliberate end--and if nobody gave a shit, then they would have neither!!

LOL I think you are giving too much of a shit about me saying "don't give a shit." And my borrowing of contemporary vernacular could obviously have been chosen with greater skill and care

 

 

I believe my gardening wife may have the answer on this one

 

She loves her garden and the plants therein. She is gentle and kind with each and every plant. But if they don't perform their function or their season is over then, without passion or attachment, she tears them up by the roots and they become compost.

 

Though she is kind to them and treats each one with equal amounts of motherly care, she has no emotional attachment to them.

 

And beyond this, I truly believe that Laozi is urging our awareness to become more universally minded, to be more like Dao. Dao nourishes all life with maternal-like care, and yet impersonally and dispassionately Dao is the cause of life's impermanence.

[Apech]

The sage has a purpose - which is to follow the Tao. His purpose is not human concerns - human concerns are about their own individual needs and survival. Much of what we see today is about people believing that their feelings and their comforts and desires are paramount. In some ways psychotherapy encourages this kind of thought. Also things like the cult of celebrity suggests that what is important is your own coolness or appearance. The sage has no sentimentality about these things and regards them as worthless. This is not a contradiction to being compassionate or kind - on the contrary it is kind ultimately not to be fooled by all this rubbish and to deal with people as they really are - kind, perhaps but not soft.

 

Similarly the world does not stop from turning just because we are having trouble coping. It just keeps going - it is up to us to adapt and change, we have to accept difficulty and hardship and treat them as a learning experience. The world is ruthless in this sense.

 

Not giving a shit ... this implies some kind of active not caring or even cruelty ... so I don't go with that ... rather I would say that the sage is beyond pleading and manipulation, unswayed by these things ... they mean nothing to him.

[mjjbecker]

I would recommend the purchase-or at least the use online-of a good English dictionary. The Cambridge one is a good choice. Why? Because there seems to be some confusion over the English definitions here, never mind the Chinese ones.

 

Definition

 

impartial (adjective)

 

not supporting any of the sides involved in an argument

 

impartial advice

 

A trial must be fair and impartial.

 

(Definition of impartial adjective from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)

 

 

Definition

 

dispassionate (adjective)

 

able to think clearly or make good decisions because not influenced by emotions

In all the media hysteria, there was one journalist whose comments were clear-sighted and dispassionate.

 

(Definition of dispassionate adjective from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)

 

Since when does not taking sides and making decisions not based on emotions equal 'not giving a shit'? Apathy, perhaps does, but I don't recall any mention of the good sage being apathetic.

 

Here is what you wrote, with the words impartial and dispassionate replaced by their meanings in plain and simple language:

 

The universe is not influenced by emotions

It regards all things without favoring one or another

The sage is also not influenced by emotions

He regards all people without favoring one or another

 

Regardless of translation though, I don't believe anyone can truly 'get' what these writings mean without a high level of attainment. There is a reference to such things on Ken's Longmen Pai blog, where Wang Liping's interpretation was somewhat at a different level to the learned, but non-attained, scholars.

 

Or to put it another way:

 

The wise are not erudite

The erudite are not wise

[Guest paul walter]

[Tao99]

Edited July 9, 2010 by Tao99

[Tao99]

Edited July 9, 2010 by Tao99

[gendao]

The universe is not influenced by emotions

It regards all things without favoring one or another

The sage is also not influenced by emotions

He regards all people without favoring one or another

 

Regardless of translation though, I don't believe anyone can truly 'get' what these writings mean without a high level of attainment. There is a reference to such things on Ken's Longmen Pai blog, where Wang Liping's interpretation was somewhat at a different level to the learned, but non-attained, scholars.

Those who have not yet transcended dualism - still "suffer" from duality-based emotions.

Those who have attained non-dualism - may have Buddhalike compassion for others not having transcended dualism (and thus emotional "suffering"). But this can be a dispassionate concern only, because they do not feel their actual same duality-based emotions anymore.

 

It's like being understanding & considerate of how people watching a scary movie may be frightened, but feeling none of that actual fear yourself because you know it's only a movie...

Edited May 12, 2010 by vortex

[thelerner]

We can learn from the TTC to greet life with equanimity. But (most of us) aren't sages. My goal as father is to be a good father, as business man to be an excellent business man, etc. The universe can deal with its stuff, I'll deal with mine .

 

Life and 99.999% of beings on the planet don't care about my day, but that doesn't effect its meaning to me, I have to create my own meanings and learn to be true to myself.

 

 

Michael

[That Guy]

I care about what he says as much as what I read in pokemon comics, I treat them both impartially just like the universe.

 

But if I were to consider what he says, I'd say I'm larger than life and the universe, and I'll give a damn if I want to and it will matter at least to me.

Me 1

Universe 0

[thelerner]

I treat them both impartially just like the universe.

 

But if I were to consider what he says, I'd say I'm larger than life and the universe, and I'll give a damn if I want to and it will matter at least to me.

Me 1

Universe 0

 

[the latest freed]

[Stigweard]

[That Guy]

passionate, insulting PMs.

 

I am interested, can you share?