Gulf Oil Spill & Continuous Outpour

[buddhasbellybuttonfluff]

Hi That Guy,

 

Have you ever considered that those with most money might deserve it? In our current state where celebrities like paris hilton are rich for example this might not be the case, but lets say the man who is responsible for taking care of a power plant, he deserve more money than the guy who runs a juice bar at the beach, right? all that stress, responsibility etc

"Deserving" can mean many things according to different people. The problems arise when deserving equals spending at leisure instead of social responsibility: I find it a terrible mistake to think that one may use such responsibility as money carelessly. Perhaps the more "primitive" cultures had understood it better than any of the modern folk when they took the leadership position as an undesirable burden for the morally vigilant; yet didn't Plato also argue for the same when he promoted the rule of philosopher kings? Nevertheless, this point doesn't even begin to address the problem of too complicated infrastructure and too much concentrated authority which exist to satisfy the rising tides of dissatisfaction with our very basic living, but never actually providing an efficient ease. The most of entertainment and pursuits our civilization offers work as distraction, and thus they create more trouble than fix.

 

People talk about money and economy value, but you know its all fake right? If people have what they need and the means to get what the want there is a certain balance.

Well put, but I would add two things:

1) People may get the impression (via indoctrination, social pressure, etc.) that they need to get more stuff and toil more to obtain it, thus creating otherwise unsound equilibrium which depletes natural resources at unsustainable rates.

2) Having the means to invest, but no need to use it creates stagnant economy; lacking the means to invest, but needing for it creates social turmoil. Both imbalances thus imply severe economic and social disfunctions.

 

I'm not even sure where we are going anymre though but anyway, cleaner fuel = cleaner planet. At least we'll have that and not corrupted + polluted planet.

There exist other equally bad effects of environmental degradation as pollution which stem from a common root. For example, I wonder if the topsoil erosion and forthcoming depletion of commercial minerals used for artificial fertilization affect the sugar cane production.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertility_%28soil%29#Soil_depletion

 

Soil depletion occurs when the components which contribute to fertility are removed and not replaced, and the conditions which support soil fertility are not maintained. This leads to poor crop yields. In agriculture, depletion can be due to excessively intense cultivation and inadequate soil management.

 

One of the most widespread occurrences of soil depletion as of 2008 is in tropical zones where nutrient content of soils is low. The combined effects of growing population densities, large-scale industrial logging, slash-and-burn agriculture and ranching, and other factors, have in some places depleted soils through rapid and almost total nutrient removal.

 

Topsoil depletion is when the nutrient rich organic topsoil that takes hundreds to thousands of years to build up under natural conditions is eroded or depleted of its original organic material. Historically, many past civilizations collapses can be attributed to the depletion of the topsoil. Since the beginning of agricultural production in the Great Plains of North America in the 1880s about one half of its topsoil has disappeared.

 

Depletion may occur through a variety of other effects, including overtillage which damages soil structure, overuse of inputs such as synthetic fertilizers and herbicides, which leave residues and buildups that inhibit microorganisms, and salinization of soil.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphorus#Occurrence

 

In 2007, at the current rate of consumption, the supply of phosphorus was estimated to run out in 345 years. However, scientists are now claiming that a "Peak Phosphorus" will occur in 30 years and that "At current rates, reserves will be depleted in the next 50 to 100 years."

You can't escape the problem of too much spending anywhere. I just find it pretty disheartening that people still invest so much faith in materialistic progression, when the real root causes lie elsewhere and need another type of considerations.

 

By the way, what a nice piece of advice you offer there, Ya Mu!

 

Blessings

[Encephalon]

The corporations are only selling a green image; anyone who thinks that alternative fuels can save the day has made a grave misjudgement. First of all, the amount of energy that mankind may derive from the Sun is limited, and when we include the implicit costs of agriculture management and fertilization, not to mention their environmental impact, we will spend more energy in converting oil to alcohol than genuinely shift to a sustainable energy source. Second, the acquisition of "free energy" would instantly cause an unprecented exploitation of Earth: We would use that limitless energy to transform more of the Earth into our image and procreate even more in the absence of growth limitations. That would completely ruin the Earth, as mankind does not have the integrity and balance to wield such power. Thirdly, all the environmental issues only echo overpopulation, vanishing of ethnic traditions and sustainable lifestyles for the sake of "progression and tolerance," and a paramount of fear. Rootless people lead a rootless life, and through the proliferation of our numbers the worth of average human has undergone a major inflation. The atmosphere of alienation and fear becomes a palpable transmitted disease, when on daily basis a handful of our sweet children find out through the conflicting interests that they have no place nor room in the society. "Mind the gap" could as well encapsule how we transform interdependence into codependence: Intimate living goes down into the drain with the quality of life, while population numbers bulge through artificially iniated schemes of unsatisfactory desires. As we cannot live in balance, we will fall.

 

When you understand the signifigance of mathematics and physics, you have one foot in balance.

 

To recap this represantion of misanthropy, allow me to throw in some quotes from the venerable Jacques-Yves Cousteau:

 

 

Forget about the green movement, it has long since hijacked by pretentious hipsters and profiteers. We do not need better and bigger technology to solve the problems of extreme codependence we currently have; we need to simplify, scale down, and take responsibility in the local level. Central governance will never solve these issues, but only lull people into the sense that they should not think and act for their continued welfare due to an invisible mechanism handing them "free" welfare checks. If we don't let things to settle without interference and desire to help, the cup will keep storming and boiling until we get a bunch of tyrants and murderers who will make the past totalitarians look like sissies.

 

Blessings

 

 

Good job. Nice to see the level of eco-literacy going up in TTB.

Maybe this title has already been recommended, but "The Long Emergency: Surviving the End of Oil, Climate Change, and Other Converging Catastrophes of the Twenty-First Century" by James Kunstler probably answers more questions about this subject than any other single work. I think this is so because he connects ecological collapse with our land use pattern of choice - suburbia - which is auto- and petro- dependent and entirely unsustainable. Well intentioned Greenies can only make limited adaptations when the housing and transportation grids are so dreadfully oil-based. As Kunstler repeatedly makes clear, three national campaigns would signify that our nation is serious about sustainability and long-term viability: the reconstruction of a national train system, a new, non-autodependent urban renaissance, and local, smaller scale food production. Short of that, we will continue to subscribe to the "Saved By Technology" myth that's starting to wind down.

 

There are extraordinary opportunities ahead for those who can adapt to a radically different world. There will be utter despair for the rest.

[ralis]

With the Jan. ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court, which gives corporations(fictions) the same rights as people, it will be increasingly difficult to hold corrupt corporations accountable! The U.S. Senate attempted to raise the cap on damages to 10Billion USD. However, Alaskan Senator Lisa Murkowski (Republican) stopped the bill and cited that this cap would stop small companies from drilling in the gulf. She also stated that there are sufficient laws on the books to allow for unlimited damages through lawsuits. We all know how much time lawsuits take. I believe she has received 300K USD from BP.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/14/science/earth/14permit.html?src=mv

 

I have seen no mention of criminal liability from Obama! Why not? Even the last 7 hrs. of data are missing from the "Deepwater Horizon" rig.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/14/last-seven-hours-of-data-_n_576096.html

 

 

ralis

Edited May 15, 2010 by ralis

[Ya Mu]

...the reconstruction of a national train system, a new, non-autodependent urban renaissance, and local, smaller scale food production. Short of that, we will continue to subscribe to the "Saved By Technology" myth that's starting to wind down.

...

 

Agree, I have been "preaching" to non-listeners (wasting my time & breath) about the need for re-construction of a national train system for the last 30 years or so. I was so disillusioned by the degradation of the national train system and the inability of people to see that it was the only viable (immediately) future for mass transportation of people & goods. The big rigs traveling the roads burning fuel at the rate of 4-6 mpg is totally insane.

[Birch]

http://totnes.transitionnetwork.org/

[Ya Mu]

With the Jan. ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court, which gives corporations(fictions) the same rights as people, it will be increasingly difficult to hold corrupt corporations accountable! The U.S. Senate attempted to raise the cap on damages to 10Billion USD. However, Alaskan Senator Lisa Murkowski (Republican) stopped the bill and cited that this cap would stop small companies from drilling in the gulf. She also stated that there are sufficient laws on the books to allow for unlimited damages through lawsuits. We all know how much time lawsuits take. I believe she has received 300K USD from BP.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/14/science/earth/14permit.html?src=mv

 

I have seen no mention of criminal liability from Obama! Why not? Even the last 7 hrs. of data are missing from the "Deepwater Horizon" rig.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/14/last-seven-hours-of-data-_n_576096.html

 

 

ralis

 

Insane, isn't it? Makes me wonder how much more of this crap people are going to put up with.

I believe BP will never pay all the damages.

[ralis]

Agree, I have been "preaching" to non-listeners (wasting my time & breath) about the need for re-construction of a national train system for the last 30 years or so. I was so disillusioned by the degradation of the national train system and the inability of people to see that it was the only viable (immediately) future for mass transportation of people & goods. The big rigs traveling the roads burning fuel at the rate of 4-6 mpg is totally insane.

 

I believe it was the Teamsters that stopped further development of a real train system in the U.S. Again we are under the influence of massive corporate power!

 

 

ralis

[ralis]

Insane, isn't it? Makes me wonder how much more of this crap people are going to put up with.

I believe BP will never pay all the damages.

 

BP has the best legal minds money can buy! Litigation will continue for decades! Litigation for medical payments (80M USD) from the Exxon Valdez (BP) have not been settled. BP's lawyers were able to reduce the amount of damages.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exxon_Valdez_oil_spill

 

 

ralis

[Apech]

[ralis]

Latest BP incompetence. They place more value on saving the well than shutting it down permanently.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/15/gulf-oil-spill-bp-tries-t_n_577401.html

 

ralis

[Ya Mu]

[al.]

http://totnes.transitionnetwork.org/

 

The transition network is exactly what we should be doing, moving towards, aspiring to. American folks take heed!

 

http://www.amazon.com/Transition-Timeline-Local-Resilient-Future/dp/1603582002/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1273996014&sr=8-1

 

Also, given the scale of our predicament and the timescale, it would be useful to keep hope and put some energy towards new technology. Specifically-

 

http://www.theorionproject.org/

 

I've been following Dr Greer's work for some time, and although it takes a small leap of faith to get past the media-conditioning that fogs what he speaks about, it is inspiring stuff!

 

Other work of note-

 

http://www.arlingtoninstitute.org/

 

I highly recommend the book 'A Vision for 2012', links on the website.

 

Whatever the solution may be, it will have to be come at from all angles, with heaps of human ingenuity, courage, and cunning!

A

[Ya Mu]

Oil Spill Much Larger Than Previously Reported

 

10 Miles Long

Edited May 16, 2010 by Ya Mu

[ralis]

BP doesn't have a clue as to how to stop the leak! Yesterday they tried to plug the leak with a stopper and 6" pipe. After that failed, a BP spokesman said the depth was causing problems! What incompetence!

 

 

ralis

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Thoughts on this topic:

 

 

-it's not a "spill", it's an ongoing leak, more like a volcano. A spill implies a finite amount.

 

-NYT reports today that the vast majority of the oil is not rising to the top, but rather the chemical dispersants being used have caused giant plumes of oil to remain deep underwater in the Gulf. We're not even seeing but a small amount of this oil. "Technology will save us"...really? They have no clue how to stop this leak...

 

-Here's a great example of consumer insanity contributing to tremendous waste:

How is it possible to ship water halfway across the world to be sold at a profit here? Why and how are we doing this? You can buy this stuff by the case in Trader Joe's across the country.

 

-Also, Corporations have been considered "persons" for many decades. The recent Supreme Court ruling only defined their status in terms of election law.

 

Despite not being natural persons, corporations are recognized by the law to have rights and responsibilities like actual people. Corporations can exercise human rights against real individuals and the state,[3] and they may be responsible for human rights violations.[4] Just as they are "born" into existence through its members obtaining a certificate of incorporation, they can "die" when they lose money into insolvency. Corporations can even be convicted of criminal offences, such as fraud and manslaughter.[5](Wikipedia)

Edited May 16, 2010 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[ralis]

Latest from the Gulf of Mexico. The leak is only partially under control. I submit that BP should forfeit control of all oil being siphoned from this well to pay for all costs! All BP executives should immediately be arrested and charged!

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/16/bp-tube-sucking-oil-away_n_577942.html

 

 

ralis

[ralis]

Weren't there a lot of "drill baby drill" buffoons from Fla.? I think they should be out cleaning their soon to be black tarry beaches!

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/17/oil-spill-florida-keys-sc_n_578318.html

[ralis]

Possible Justice Dept. probe.

 

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_GULF_OIL_SPILL_WASHINGTON?SITE=MABED&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

[idquest]

It is very easy to turn the current disaster into witch hunt which will not solve the problem, obviously. People will eat offered scapegoats and keep burning through resourses killing environmnet. It is indicative that offshore drilling hasn't been stopped even for a second; they keep drilling. Nobody is going to postpone new offshore R&D.

 

Nobody wants to hear about carbon tax which is in fact the only practical tool to finance the alternative energy and reduce extravagant oil/nat gas consumption.

 

Everybody just want bread and circuses.

[Ya Mu]

Scale of disaster grows: http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/may/18/oil-spill-threatens-atlantic-coast

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Crimes against Nature, crimes against Humanity...That's Capitalism Free Enterprise for ya...

[Encephalon]

It is very easy to turn the current disaster into witch hunt which will not solve the problem, obviously. People will eat offered scapegoats and keep burning through resourses killing environmnet. It is indicative that offshore drilling hasn't been stopped even for a second; they keep drilling. Nobody is going to postpone new offshore R&D.

 

Nobody wants to hear about carbon tax which is in fact the only practical tool to finance the alternative energy and reduce extravagant oil/nat gas consumption.

 

Everybody just want bread and circuses.

 

Two points.

One, a witch hunt may be futile, but a thorough exercise in assigning culpability could go a long way, given that corporate accountability is basically nil at this point in history.

 

Two, there is no alternative energy to replace fossil fuels if a global population beyond 2 billion is maintained. Various strategies for culling the human herd by 80 to 90 percent will be the story of the 21st century.

 

Live every day as if it were your last.

[idquest]

Two, there is no alternative energy to replace fossil fuels if a global population beyond 2 billion is maintained. Various strategies for culling the human herd by 80 to 90 percent will be the story of the 21st century.

 

Live every day as if it were your last.

Blasto,

 

What do you think is going to end earlier: water or oil? I understand the lack of water is already affecting masses of people resulting in somewhat new mass migrations like humankind witnessed millenia ago.

[Encephalon]

Blasto,

 

What do you think is going to end earlier: water or oil? I understand the lack of water is already affecting masses of people resulting in somewhat new mass migrations like humankind witnessed millenia ago.

 

I'm not sure their are depletion date estimates for specific resources; too many variables, no? But you're right; when the Himalayan glaciers disappear, it will get ugly.

[ralis]

This shows how much power these companies really have!

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/19/bp-coast-guard-officers-b_n_581779.html

 

 

ralis